I think Pook got it wrong: LTR=Dionysian Path, STR=Apollo Path

[crowes22]

Some good thoughts here so far on this thread.

I don't know about paths or whether or not getting laid is a 'science', but I think it comes to this.

You MUST be able to be happy without a woman.

I am no monk or mid 20's virgin, but I do think it's important to be able to spend time without a woman, even when you know you can have one.

I'm sure many will think that is a crazy statement, but I'll stand by it no matter what.

Guys looking to get married should love that.

I love women as much as any other male, but it does come to balance. I think where guys go wrong is placing their happiness on a woman, simple as that. If you can't be truly happy single, I think you have trouble ahead.

Not that you shouldn't be dating or 'looking' for prospects, you should, but that can't be your #1 priority. If you can still be busy, happy, fun, while you don't KNOW where or when the next girl you bed is going to cross your path, that's the key.

A girlfriend is pretty much a guarantee for a source to satisfy your desire, that's cool, and of course we all like it, but if you must have a female around to make you feel good of yourself or to keep you happy, that is so pathetic it makes me want to puke.

And not just a girlfriend, for some guys it's a female at all. If no females are on the horizon, they are depressed losers, even if it's for one night with the boys.

I have a friend like that, it annoyed me so that we grew apart, if he had no target for the night, or GF on his arm, you could tell his confidence was shot, and he was sad as hell. The change he would make was night-n-day.

A man should be happy and confident with or without a woman, looking to a woman to validate yourself is the very thing women do towards men.

'Real Men', as mentioned above, are that in itself, men, who enjoy women and the sex they get from them, but they don't base their purpose, happiness, validation, and motivation on it.

The ones that do are acting more feminine, than masculine when all is said and done.

[This message has been edited by crowes22 (edited 11-20-2002).]

 

[SexPDX]

Originally posted by RDtoo:
Those guys who are out curing cancer, painting masterpieces, etc, ATTRACT women without much effort.

I know some people who are very accomplished lawyers, judges, local politicials & community leaders, successful business people, brilliant engineers, etc.

Are these guys attracting tons of women without much effort? Most of them are not. In fact many of them have ugly wives or chase women in very AFC ways. Women find many of these guys simply UNEXCITING. I consider myself still novice in seduction and I bet I have already fvcker hotter women and more women than a lot of these guys have their whole lives. People around here need to get rid of the total illusion of this direct relationship between moving mountains in the world and getting puzzy.

Originally posted by RDtoo:

They do not have to learn how to seduce, they are magnets. A guy like Ross Jefferies has to learn "tricks" because he will never be a real man, thus he has to find ways of getting them by any means possible.

Why don't you tell us what a *real* man is? If you or any of these other guys can tell me that without either linking me to a post from Pook or paraphrasing a post from Pook, post your address and I will send you an Oreo cookie.

Originally posted by RDtoo:

Women are not as dumb as alot of guys here seem to think, and they learn from experience as well as we do. I know a very quality woman who shoots down all seduction attempts. She says the thing that attracts her is the "quality of character" in a man. I do not think that learning SS is building that kind of character.

She said she likes "quality of character". So at that point you...saw that as an opportunity for deeper probing and elicited all the way to end values, got an intuition about which themes and which language structures would appeal to her for the purpose of putting her in her desired states and you fvcked her brains out? Am I right? No, instead you ate up the socially conditioned conscious bullsh1t she fed you that has nothing to do with the truth and you decided to believe that "quality" women can't be seduced. Go watch some more Opera and Dr. Phill, buddy.

------------------
"Dare to aim high." ~ DeepBlue

"Embrace the unknown." ~ Mystery

"Every human being has so much to offer, it's whether they are willing to give it that makes or breaks their relationship with me." ~ Gunwitch

"All you can do is make sure that YOUR game is tight and your skills are intact. Be prepared for anything and play YOUR game at all times, right down the line." ~ MrSex4uNYC

"Capture and lead her imagination and she will not resist you." ~ Ross Jeffries

 

[RDtoo]

What is a real man? Im still learning, but it seems to me a real man wouldnt call himself a "performer", he would call himself a man.

 

[Cesare Cardinali]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for all the great replies.

Just to clarify a few points:

1. I was in no way dissing Pook's posts; I find them very inspiring and thought provoking. I was trying to reconcile them with the view that in order to be a great man (or a real man) one must master women or else be at the mercy of them.

SexPDX said it best when he talks about Napoleon and Caesar getting consumed by some hoes. These guys were AFCs who channeled all their frustration into the single minded pursuit of empire building. But the women consumed and destroyed them in the end.

And the reason I felt compelled to write this is because Pook himself seems to be a master at seduction, therefore, he cannot profess that he "turns the SS off" and uses the technique of "eliminating desire" and "I am the prize" as the source of his pick up skills.

I feel that it would be dangerous for newbies to assume that "unusual" seduction skills are a waste of time because Pook says so and because he is a success with women. And therefore, these newbies end up Nexting women left and right and wondering why they can't attract any women.

I think Pook is using those skills on a subconsious level and doesn't need to think about them; like someone who is a master at martial arts...you go to punch him and he doesn't have to think "geez, I guess I'll bloke it with this arm, and then I'll kick him here...that's what the book says". It's all instinctive and automatic. (Of course I am making big assumptions here regarding his or anyone elses success rate with women, for all we know Pook looks like Doc Love and the closest he gets to getting action from the ladies is hugging that white Poodle of his...LOL).

But the point is that I think it is wrong to view the goal of putting a sincere effort into learning seduction skills as some sort of "dionysian path do destruction". Look at the name of the forum that is devoted to this topic! It is as if it is for freaks or something.

2. I agree with Prosemont that Seduction skills are transferable if you chose to use them in other areas of your life. Because you are no longer a powerless AFC. You could use the skills to excel in sales, politics, charitable organizations, whatever you want. The point is that you mastered the area of women and can now tend to more "manly" things if you choose to; as opposed to being an AFC.

If you read Machiavelli's book The Prince you'll see that he offers very good advice on how to rule an empire, and I think it is also good advice on how to succeed in any endeavor: "One must be as crafty and cunning as a Fox and as strong as a Lion".

If you are simply a Lion (a la Anti-Dump) than you'll fall into a trap that a more crafty Fox would not fall for. However, if you are just a cunning fox, you may not be able to do battle when a Lion steps into your path. Therefore, I was trying to reconcile the Fox and the Lion in the realm of seduction so that the view that focusing on Seduction is inferior to focusing on being a "real man" can be reconsidered. The two are simply not mutually exclusive.

And by the way, I read a biography of Einstein a few years ago and apparently he banged Marilyn Monroe and she dumped him. So maybe it was his AFC rejection that caused him to take his frustration out by creating a weapon that wiped out thousands of innocent people.

Furthermore, Arthur Miller (the playwrite who wrote The Crucible) was so devastated after his marriage to Marilyn Monroe ended that he couldn't write for years.

Contrast that to JFK, he banged tons of women, Marilyn Monroe included, and he was still a real man and was able to acomplish tons of great things, and he dumped her! The above two examples, IMO, are of AFC's who excelled at being great men in their respective careers but never mastered women (they attracted them by virtue of their status, but never mastered them), so they were almost destroyed by them, and JFK was a master seducer who seduced women as well as the masses to rise up and reach his full potential as a Seducer and a Great Man.

Cheers,

Cesare Cardinali

 

[SexPDX]

Originally posted by RDtoo:
What is a real man? Im still learning, but it seems to me a real man wouldnt call himself a "performer", he would call himself a man.

RDtoo,

Leaving alone for now the issue that you admit you don't know what a real man is yet assert that an SSer is not one and therefore will not attract as many women...answer me this question:

Do you believe that a guy's quest to figure out what is a "real man" is helped by these two mindsets (which have gotten a lot of acclaim on the forum in the past) ?:

Being intolerant of a woman's "sh1t" to such an exaggerated extent that you interpret the most minor things as such while employing a clearly defined set of "dating rules" aimed at eliminating all women who don't have an irreversable opinion of you as god's gift to the world upon first sight of you (Anti-Dump) and viewing women as a bunch of hopelessly fvcked up b1tches (Sir_Chancealot).

------------------
"Dare to aim high." ~ DeepBlue

"Embrace the unknown." ~ Mystery

"Every human being has so much to offer, it's whether they are willing to give it that makes or breaks their relationship with me." ~ Gunwitch

"All you can do is make sure that YOUR game is tight and your skills are intact. Be prepared for anything and play YOUR game at all times, right down the line." ~ MrSex4uNYC

"Capture and lead her imagination and she will not resist you." ~ Ross Jeffries

 

[STR8UP]

Women back then knew that their role was simply "relief for the warrior", whereas now, every woman thinks she is a warrior as well.

What a fukked up reality! This is probably why I find so few women TRULY attractive.

Originally posted by SexPDX:
People around here need to get rid of the total illusion of this direct relationship between moving mountains in the world and getting puzzy.

True. Accomplishment is only a catalyst that aids a mans potential to attract.

 

[EMB82]

Originally posted by Cesare Cardinali:

And by the way, I read a biography of Einstein a few years ago and apparently he banged Marilyn Monroe and she dumped him. So maybe it was his AFC rejection that caused him to take his frustration out by creating a weapon that wiped out thousands of innocent people.

Contrast that to JFK, he banged tons of women, Marilyn Monroe included, and he was still a real man and was able to acomplish tons of great things, and he dumped her! The above two examples, IMO, are of AFC's who excelled at being great men in their respective careers but never mastered women (they attracted them by virtue of their status, but never mastered them), so they were almost destroyed by them, and JFK was a master seducer who seduced women as well as the masses to rise up and reach his full potential as a Seducer and a Great Man.

Umm, Einstein never created the atom bomb - it was the Manhatten Project that actually made it. Also, the atomic bomb saved lives. It killed 200,000 people, but had there been an invasion of Japan, more than a million would have died. Also, Marilyn Monroe didn't become famous until the 50s, which was after the creation of the bomb. I also find it hard to believe that Einstein, who died in 1955, had sex with her.

JFK, like Bill Clinton, was a slave to his ****. They were definately not great men and only mediocre presidents at best. Truman and Reagan, on the other hand, did great things.

 

[Mr. Mystery]

I have not particularly been against SS in the past, but I have not seen much of a need for it in my life.

The discussion has involved much talk of money and power. These thing do matter in attracting women, maintaining them however works a little differently.

SS is not a nessecity, it is a tool that may be used to attract women. However, Women can be enjoyed and attracted without the use of SS.

If you are confident and comfortable with yourself, you end up being fun to be around. People that know themselves and are truely secure, don't have much trouble with women.

A confident, happy man is content without women in his life. Women see this as strength and challenge, this attracts them (without any SS use!).

Pook preachs self-awareness and being happy with yourself. He is by no means a god, he simply has captured the essence of this site, is exceptionally well read, and a great writer/debater.

I could go on, but I would really just be repeating what is already taught at this site and end up wasting my time and yours.

In the end, to each his own. If you use SS, than use it and enjoy. There is no reason to argue over it, aside from it being very interesting. Whatever makes you happy is all that matters, but to anyone SS user or otherwise, the key is not to depend on women for happiness, that is all I the advice I can give.

Mr. Mystery



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"Every passing minute is a chance to turn it all around" - Vanilla Sky

The unexamined life is not worth living – Socrates

"Whats your favorite position? That's cool with me, it's not my favorite but I'll do it for you" - Tenacious D - Fvck her gentley

"I'd rather hear no, than never know" - Mr. Mystery himself!

Those that go searching for love, only manifest their own lovelessness. And the loveless never find love, only the loving find love. And they never have to seek for it - D.H. Lawrence

"Don't take life too seriously or you'll never get out alive" - Van Wilder

 

[RDtoo]

Lets make one thing clear, I am not against you, I am for you and any other guy who comes here who was tired of being burned by women. That being said, I think it would be nearly impossible for anyone to define what a man is, but I believe that being a man has something to do with having an ever deepening character and having convictions. I have no doubt that SS has some value to it, and it might help a guy lay a few bimbos, if that is what he wants. I do doubt that SS would work on a woman of substance and character, and guys, spare me the details of how you banged a college professor, you can say anything on the net, but that does not make it so. I am older than most of you here, and am not looking for ONS, I am looking eventually for a LTR, but in the meantime I am aiming for women of quality. I dont care if she is a 5 or a 10, as long as she has substance. Lets face it, that HB who is a 10 will be a 4 in 10 years. To try and answer your question as I understand it, no, becoming a DJ, reading the DJ Bible, or learning SS will not make you a man. I think one can do all those things without becoming a man. I think becoming a man goes beyond becoming a DJ. To dog me, or to dog Pook, or whoever about what path they take is not very constructive. We are all at different points on the road and what is truth to one person may seem like foolishness to another. All of us that come here do have common ground though and we should cheer one another on as we leave our AFC selves in the dust.

 

[diplomatic_lies]

I think what Pook was targeting is people who spend their time with seducing women into bed, and going onto the next, and next, and next, etc. I agree seduction is important, but I would believe Pook was only warning against using it purely (e.g. going for hot women, seducing them to bed, sex, then nexting).

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by Cesare Cardinali:
And by the way, I read a biography of Einstein a few years ago and apparently he banged Marilyn Monroe and she dumped him. So maybe it was his AFC rejection that caused him to take his frustration out by creating a weapon that wiped out thousands of innocent people.

Actually, Einstein said, "If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."

 

[VeryBadGirl]

"Contrast that to JFK, he banged tons of women, Marilyn Monroe included, and he was still a real man and was able to acomplish tons of great things, and he dumped her!"

While JFK was a great man in many ways, his relationships with women were in DIRECT contrast to what a REAL man is.

REAL men do not promise to be loyal, respect and cherish their wife and then go out and disrepect them, breaking that promise by f*cking other women. If cheaters who break trust are what is thought of as REAL men on this board, this board isn't what I thought it is.

 

[Cesare Cardinali]

VBG,
I don't condone people cheating on their wives (like JFK). The point I was trying to make is that it is possible to be a great seducer and bang tons of women, while simultaneously being able to "move mountains" (i.e. be a real man). The two paths are not mutually exclusive in my opinion. Furthermore, the comparison of JFK with Arthur Miller, I thought was quite fitting, because the latter litterally could not function as a playwrite after the breakup of his marriage (totally AFC) while JFK just continued down the path unmoved after he ejected Marilyn Monroe.

 

[VeryBadGirl]

For me, I guess, being a real man is something that involves your whole person - striving to be a good person and do the best you can in every aspect of your life, not just one.

In my opinion, JFK was a great leader but not a true great man, because of what he did to his wife.

But, yes, I agree, how you deal with interpersonal relationships and what you achieve professionally are not always intertwined. Someone can abuse their wife at home but still create a new, important medicine at work. In a case like that the man would be a great inventor but not a great man. At least in my point of view.

 

[Cesare Cardinali]

VBG,
The first sentence of your last post says it best. "Striving to be great in every aspect not just one". That is exactly what I meant. You can be great as a seducer (if you choose to be) and great in your career and great in your family life, etc.

It is wrong to think that focusing on Seduction is somehow leading you down a destructive path that will stiffle your personal and professional growth. In fact, it will probably help those other areas as the skills are transferable.



[This message has been edited by Cesare Cardinali (edited 11-21-2002).]

 

[ESPN]

i will tell you something, l think pook got things just too far, he keep comparing himself to other historical people, other great man's of history, getting motivated by them, not there is something wrong with that, acutally it's something that everybody should do, instead of "wasting their lifes with dionisian pleasures and trying to reach the ultimate goal of a interminable flow of feelings that will destroy the men's soul and ability to create a reachble purpose of life", or something like that he keep saying.
but the point is, if pook want to lead this forum and develop his self efficiency by motivating people to reach their goals with a strategic writing style, l think he did a mistake and this leadership will collapse in my humble opinion, is just a matter of time, he tried to make people of this forum to follow his dreams and ideals that he got studying and analiszing people he admire and this will lead to many guys here get confused about what they should do or follow, this post is a good example.

honestly?l respect you pook, you had a influence in my life, l think you did a tatic mistake and l think a better move was simply LETTING people GET what they should follow by themselves, if they will end up with productive lifes or not will depend on themselves, the whole appolus and dionisius was WAY too much for this forum, the jerk secret post is good one, stuff for people who still stuck in some problems.
i humbly think ss will gain SO much popularity that your leadership will end, anyway, good luck, and be prepared to battle if you want to own the crown here

 

[SexPDX]

Originally posted by CyranoDeBergerac:
...seducing a multitude of women invariably adds nothing to the human race...

If this is true then why does society romanticize seduction to the degree that it does? Why are romance novels the #1 selling type of literature? Why is making movies about people having affairs on sinking ships a multibillion dollar industry? I think society has demonstrated that it values seduction very much. Hell, the very message board we are posting on is named after a fictional character who LIVED FOR WOMEN!

In any case, as much as people disagree with me, adding something to the human race is off topic on this forum.

------------------
"Dare to aim high." ~ DeepBlue

"Embrace the unknown." ~ Mystery

"Every human being has so much to offer, it's whether they are willing to give it that makes or breaks their relationship with me." ~ Gunwitch

"All you can do is make sure that YOUR game is tight and your skills are intact. Be prepared for anything and play YOUR game at all times, right down the line." ~ MrSex4uNYC

"Capture and lead her imagination and she will not resist you." ~ Ross Jeffries

 

[RDtoo]

Oh you are probably right. SS will be the more the more popular view, as it offers you sex for little investment of yourself in a woman. Pook's way is much harder, and dosent dangle out "flesh candy" as a reward. The way that is most soul satisfying in the long run remains to be seen. I dont think that Pook wrote for the masses anyways. I think he realized that not everyone would get what he was saying.

As far as the whole JFK thing goes, yes, I believe a man can accomplish great things and be a great seducer, however I think they are the exception and not the rule. Men who become consumed by their passions, be it women, alcohol, drugs, rarely accomplish anything else. Spare me the examples because for any one person like JFK, there are thousands of unknowns on skid row who were did in by their passions.

 

[Janez]

Most of you here don't have Confidence needed to be succesful with women. So you need technics. And you blabla. All the time. Your life is here on forum. His life is outside.

1 Pook's paragraph give me more than all your bull**** talk here. Face it, you are just too insecure to get in his vibe. You tried to understand him but you couldn't. Pook's way is just the better way. Your way sucks.

 

[RDtoo]

I kind of wish Pook would show up and comment on some of the topics that we have touched on in this thread bearing his name.