I am 100% convinced that the college debt bubble is going to make the housing bubble

[synergy1]

As far as a "business administration degree", I have run 2 businesses, I sincerely doubt that there are many people coming out of college that can run my business better than I can at my age. Not saying I'm not still learning, you are always learning, but I have a better idea of what does and what does not work than the avg 27 year old does with a BA degree, with about 6 years of real applied knowledge. lol, I remember when I was 20 years old, and my best friend who was getting a business degree, he was a senior in college, I had to sit down and explain to him the difference between FiFO and LiFO accounting. Because selling computers online that's something I had been dealing with and had to learn on my own, or about a year and a half at that point. Even with that, to him it's just another one of many definitions that he has to memorize for a test. For me it was the difference between showing potential investors that we ran a real tight ship and we knew what we were doing, as well as being as prepared as possible for tax season

You can read a book about anything until you are blue in the face, but until you get out there and hustle your business ( as you have), than a degree is useless. For engineers, the concepts are usually fairly unknown in the public arena so the eduction provides one with the capability of learning now technologies while applying practices and principals learned from old ones. Business might be like this too, but everything in business seems like a 'learn as you go' thing. You said it, you make the mistakes, but your experience far outweighs some business major's classwork.

I got lucky. I had a cheap undergraduate and made money in graduate school. I came out ahead with more money than I started. This wouldn't be the case now. That said, knowing what i know now about the economy and business, I wouldn't advocate college for something you can learn on the job. I stick by my sentiments regarding the necessity of education in advanced fields while being able to pass over the general fields. Sorry, but the later are a waste of money IMO.


The difference between your average high school graduate and a person who graduated with a four year degree earns almost double the life time salary of a high school graduate.

Not advocating bypassing college here. There is a significant distinction one must make in your argument. bear in mind i am a poster child for college as I graduated with 3.4-3.5 in an advanced field and have two degrees. That said, I still value on the job experience over an education. Countless people succeed, but its because they are driven...not because they go to college. Likewise, the failures ( who happen to have not attended college) are failures by their own devices. While this statistic is a good selling point to go to college, it still doesn't conclude that college is a root cause for failures/ successes.

 

[Desdinova]

It's ridiculous how much push there is for high school students to go to college or university. Not sure how it works now, but when I went to high school, there were two paths you could take: x01 classes for the dumb kids who probably won't go to college or university, and x00 classes for the smart kids who would. I started off in the x01 classes and accelerated so much that I switched over to the x00 classes. I'm glad I made that mistake, not so much as for my college education, but to see how things actually work.

The bottom line is, it's all fvcking irrelevant. My ex was a high school dropout and had no problem getting her college education. So are the x00 classes better for college? NO. It doesn't matter which classes you take nor if you graduate. You can get your ass into college because you're flipping the bill. Follow the money, and you get your answer. Is a college going to turn down your money because you don't have a piece of paper from high school? NO. Is a college going to turn down your money because your report card says you took the dummy classes? NO.

The whole education system and curriculum needs to be scrapped and re-built from the ground up. 80% of high school is a waste of time and knowledge. 80% of what I learned during those years has never been put to use. What's worse is 20% of the time I spend learning useless 5hit was done through homework. There is so much knowledge being shoe-horned into high school educations that it needs to be spilled over into a student's personal time. I have never worked as hard as I did when I was in high school, and it's a shame that so much time was wasted on knowledge that I've never used.

I honestly don't think high school should go past grade 8. Public school should focus on basic knowledge for everyday life. Once that is accomplished, all the specialized knowledge (trigonometry, algebra, physics, chemistry, biology, english) should be left to a college education, and focused on in the fields that require it. If you wanna be a doctor, THEN you take biology. If you wanna be a computer programmer, THEN you take algebra. There is no reason for a computer programmer to take biology.

The state of the current education system is crap. Apparently they don't even fail kids anymore in school. So may I ask WHY we are going to school if there's no purpose other than to waste time and gain useless knowledge?

 

[JT7890]

Well, Des, you DO need a high school diploma or GED to get into college, so they don't just take anyone off the street.

As far as reducing time spent in school, NOT going to happen. The US is already falling behind all major countries in education and graduation rates, folks in China go to school damn near twice as much as the United States.

I think a well rounded education in all areas with a specialization area (major) is crucial because depending upon how you look at it, all of the subjects relate to each other in some fashion. I can't say that I'm a business major so why should I take natural science, when most of success in business is a result of using alot of the methods taught in science such as the scientific method and testing out theories.

Me personally, I think education isn't being used enough and it's the only thing that's going to save the United States. Going into an "information age" across the WORLD, other countries are investing in education and related technology to keep their middle class strong and their people educated because this century the "most educated" nation is going to win. That's why China is growing so fvcking crazy, education is a national symbol of PRIDE and focus over there while in the US, Jersey Shore and Snookie is.

It just doesn't make sense to me how people always rail against education. The reason the middle class is slowing disappearing and the "RICH" are getting richer is a result of some form of continued education and learning whether in the classroom or outside of it. NO you don't have to have a "college degree" to be successful in business, but I can tell you that you will need an EDUCATION to be successful in business. There are people that dropped out of college to open successful businesses, if those people enrolled in college to take business courses right now, I'm willing to bet their "education" from the field would have them flying right through the courses. Just because you don't have a "college degree" doesn't mean you aren't "educated."

It really isn't about the college degree, it's about EDUCATION. Look at Middle America, they rail and look down on EDUCATION period. Reading a book, studying stats, facts, trends, anything related to higher learning is BORING to these folks and they would rather get by watching re-runs of Jersey Shore and every stupid reality show on TV. While look at the RICH people or the ones that are more well off, they for the most part are in a CONSTANT state of education, a constant state of studying a stat, a field, a trend, reading something related to how to manage their money, make more money, be in better health, etc. See the difference? It isn't some act of God that people that are better off live longer, those people are more EDUCATED in how to treat their bodies.

We have got to stop railing against education. The only difference between a rich/well off person and a guy in poverty is EDUCATION.

 

[TheHumanist]

It's ridiculous how much push there is for high school students to go to college or university. Not sure how it works now, but when I went to high school, there were two paths you could take: x01 classes for the dumb kids who probably won't go to college or university, and x00 classes for the smart kids who would. I started off in the x01 classes and accelerated so much that I switched over to the x00 classes. I'm glad I made that mistake, not so much as for my college education, but to see how things actually work.

The bottom line is, it's all fvcking irrelevant. My ex was a high school dropout and had no problem getting her college education. So are the x00 classes better for college? NO. It doesn't matter which classes you take nor if you graduate. You can get your ass into college because you're flipping the bill. Follow the money, and you get your answer. Is a college going to turn down your money because you don't have a piece of paper from high school? NO. Is a college going to turn down your money because your report card says you took the dummy classes? NO.

The whole education system and curriculum needs to be scrapped and re-built from the ground up. 80% of high school is a waste of time and knowledge. 80% of what I learned during those years has never been put to use. What's worse is 20% of the time I spend learning useless 5hit was done through homework. There is so much knowledge being shoe-horned into high school educations that it needs to be spilled over into a student's personal time. I have never worked as hard as I did when I was in high school, and it's a shame that so much time was wasted on knowledge that I've never used.

I honestly don't think high school should go past grade 8. Public school should focus on basic knowledge for everyday life. Once that is accomplished, all the specialized knowledge (trigonometry, algebra, physics, chemistry, biology, english) should be left to a college education, and focused on in the fields that require it. If you wanna be a doctor, THEN you take biology. If you wanna be a computer programmer, THEN you take algebra. There is no reason for a computer programmer to take biology.

The state of the current education system is crap. Apparently they don't even fail kids anymore in school. So may I ask WHY we are going to school if there's no purpose other than to waste time and gain useless knowledge?

I have to give a voice of dissent on that. For me, he equivalent to x00 x01 of your classes is the honors/AP classes vs College Preparatory/Standard. Let me tell me you, despite the extra homework, there's no way I would give it up to be in Standard/College Preparatory (yes, for some, CP is the only level, though the quality sucks). Perhaps your schools was different, but the few CP classes I was (which was Spanish/Physics) was ridiculous. The class was self-divided into two side, with one side trying to do classwork/listen and the other half was ridiculously disruptive. Sometimes it would take 10-15 minutes of an hour long class before they get settled and they can still do stuff to slow it down. Unlike the Honors/AP where I came out know a few things, I came out knowing a few things, I learned absolutely nothing from Spanish. 5 years of Spanish (2 was in middle school) and I could speak, reads, nor hear a word (versus French taken in college where 2 years/4 semesters I am still to read, speak a little, and hear if spoken slowly with my year old memory from the last class), but someone I got B/A's. Unless you feel that students should just spend all their time socializing and cannot have a touch of nerdiness at all, I think I would've not traded up my Honors/AP at all (though I could have used better time management for a better sleep schedule).

I also have to disagree that students should only learn algebra or biology only if they want to be a programmer/engineer or a doctor respectively. I think basic level algebra/biology is something that every person should know (baring capability). Still, I think it is still important to some well-roundedness. I may never be understand everything a layers or a doctor knows of their profession, but having a general background to know when when their basics are flawed, is a good thing. I'm not saying that people have to go through 3 years worth of English Lit unless they really desire so, but some English going though a little Shakespeare and other works is still good. I'm not going to be a doctor, but it is good to know (to me at least), how does DNA works and etc you learn from biology.

Also, no half decent school would accept every student even if they have the cash (except maybe loads upon loads). I'm not even talking about Harvard, even a state school on the bottom end of the Top 100 rejected my best friend from high school (he wasn't exactly the best student, didn't really enjoyed the material most of the time).

 

[backbreaker]

Well, Des, you DO need a high school diploma or GED to get into college, so they don't just take anyone off the street.

As far as reducing time spent in school, NOT going to happen. The US is already falling behind all major countries in education and graduation rates, folks in China go to school damn near twice as much as the United States.

I think a well rounded education in all areas with a specialization area (major) is crucial because depending upon how you look at it, all of the subjects relate to each other in some fashion. I can't say that I'm a business major so why should I take natural science, when most of success in business is a result of using alot of the methods taught in science such as the scientific method and testing out theories.

Me personally, I think education isn't being used enough and it's the only thing that's going to save the United States. Going into an "information age" across the WORLD, other countries are investing in education and related technology to keep their middle class strong and their people educated because this century the "most educated" nation is going to win. That's why China is growing so fvcking crazy, education is a national symbol of PRIDE and focus over there while in the US, Jersey Shore and Snookie is.

It just doesn't make sense to me how people always rail against education. The reason the middle class is slowing disappearing and the "RICH" are getting richer is a result of some form of continued education and learning whether in the classroom or outside of it. NO you don't have to have a "college degree" to be successful in business, but I can tell you that you will need an EDUCATION to be successful in business. There are people that dropped out of college to open successful businesses, if those people enrolled in college to take business courses right now, I'm willing to bet their "education" from the field would have them flying right through the courses. Just because you don't have a "college degree" doesn't mean you aren't "educated."

It really isn't about the college degree, it's about EDUCATION. Look at Middle America, they rail and look down on EDUCATION period. Reading a book, studying stats, facts, trends, anything related to higher learning is BORING to these folks and they would rather get by watching re-runs of Jersey Shore and every stupid reality show on TV. While look at the RICH people or the ones that are more well off, they for the most part are in a CONSTANT state of education, a constant state of studying a stat, a field, a trend, reading something related to how to manage their money, make more money, be in better health, etc. See the difference? It isn't some act of God that people that are better off live longer, those people are more EDUCATED in how to treat their bodies.

We have got to stop railing against education. The only difference between a rich/well off person and a guy in poverty is EDUCATION.

Everyone, even myself agrees that a person should be educated. hell do you know how mcuh "education" I have when it comes to computers? I could walk into any it class in America right now at 27 and teach it, from top to bottom, no questions asked. There is abosutly nothing I don't know about how a computer works on a windows platform at least. Everything from networking to the significance of Front Side Bus speeds, to setting up dual boot setups on a computer. At one point when I was 20 I was building with my own two hands, 4-5 custom 1500-2000 grand gaming pc rigs a day.

The point is, you have made, education synonymous with college, and that is not the case. You don't have to go to college to be educated, and you just because you went to college, doesn't mean you are educated. About 1 4th of our presidents, never received a college degree.. Washington, Andrew Jackson, Van Buren, Harrison, Taylor, Fillmore, Abe Lincoln, the bad Jackson lol, Truman and cleveland., Hell, Lincoln did not go to school period, but would walk miles to trade books with his neighborhoods just to get his hands on something to read. Abe was probably the best president America has ever had.


Going to school, is not going to make you magically educated, without the drive to actually want an education. The core focus here should be the drive to want to learn, not how you go about getting it. All you are going to do otherwise is end up debt ridden.

Me personally, I think education isn't being used enough and it's the only thing that's going to save the United States. Going into an "information age" across the WORLD, other countries are investing in education and related technology to keep their middle class strong and their people educated because this century the "most educated" nation is going to win. That's why China is growing so fvcking crazy, education is a national symbol of PRIDE and focus over there while in the US, Jersey Shore and Snookie is.

I run into this alot in my industry. I have a team in India I use for alot of my overloaded work that I trust alot. Have used them forever. WE have a nice working relationship. They know what I like and how I work. Some freelancers ask me why I use them and they get pissy becuase I am sending work overseas. honestly it's not the money. if they were not doing it, we would be doing it in house meaning I would be paying regular wages... honestly.. they are just better programmers than what I find here for the most part, and the ones that are as good have their heads half way stuck up their asses are are extremely prima donnaish just because they are good at what they do for a living, which is something you are supposed to be anyway.

 

[backbreaker]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/08/for-profit-college-recruiters-documents_n_820337.html

 

[synergy1]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/08/for-profit-college-recruiters-documents_n_820337.html

LOLz! I loved the target demographic for recruiters. Basically people who never really had a lot going for them, made rash choices ( having a kid), and most importantly...will never be able to pay off their loans. back before the whole default crisis in 2007, credit cards and others didn't much like people who would pay loans off quickly as this took away from money they made on interest. The longer the loan, the more interest you pay...by a lot. The same probably goes for deadbeats who get insane student loans, and are never able to pay them off. Of course this dynamic is similar with the housing market as people were unable to pay mortgages and securitized products **** the bed. I am not sure if student loans are strung up in similar products though, so anyone w/ better information feel free to chime in.

To break out the nerd quotes from star wars movies, 'fear is a powerful ally'. Preying on the unintelligent is easy since they succumb to fear much more than someone who is educated. Un educated people, for example, are afraid of socialism, the stock market, or even travel. Learned people know there are downfalls to all, but don't fear what they understand.

 

[Alle_Gory]

The central reason the mortgage crisis occurred was because the loans were being held up by people that couldn't afford to payback the loans. They are started defaulting at one time, driving up the default rate, which puts ANY lender out of business.

The lenders in that case didn't even care who was taking out the loan. You work at McDonalds for $10 per hour? Here's a $300,000 mortgage sir. Have a nice day.

And why would the banks care? The assets don't remain on their balance sheets. They just sell them to another sucker (another bank or investment firm).

Banks today are not like in the past. They're more like investment firms. If you think your money (or anything else) is safe in the bank, it's not.

 

[JT7890]

Well, the money is safe in the banks and credit unions up to $250k due to the government backing, that's unless the US Government goes bankrupt! And the way they are going we could be there in 20 - 25 years.

Another driver of the mortgage crisis from a couple years ago was the booming economy. Everyone loves to bash Bush right now for not creating alot of jobs, but he didn't have to create millions of jobs because we did not lose millions of jobs. The economy was strong as hell for majority of the Bush years and towards late 2005/early 2006, Real Estate got strong as hell also. As a result, capitalism always seeks out new opportunities so mortgage backers and brokers saw an opportunity to expand real estate loans to people that normally would not qualify (way past sub-prime lending). And that entire market was HUGE, because, you had alot of people that would LOVE to have had a mortgage but didn't qualify for sub-prime rates. So these new products and programs allowed these people to get into the game, however, alot of their structured mortgage payments were variable and not fixed. When the market started to turn and the variable rates skyrocketed, a huge number of those people could no longer afford the payments and the defaults went through the roof.

So it was a combination mostly of mortgage bankers and brokers, with a little help from the Government and WallStreet and those three entities alone damn near took down the entire financial system.

I'm conservative as hell, but had the government NOT bailed out the banks, we would have went into a horrible cycle of financial depression as the entire credit system would have damn near been demolished and we would have had to WAIT until it rebuilt itself (which would have spanned years).

That's why credit is tight today, or in other words not "tight" but "right" if you ask me. If you can't pay your bills on time, stay out of collections, keep a job with income coming in, manage your liabilites so you aren't spending more then you take in, and develop an efficient credit history so that you WALK IN THE BANK with a 600 - 700 plus fico score, YOU DO NOT DESERVE AND NEVER SHOULD HAVE DESERVED A BANK LOAN of ANY KIND.

Sub-prime was never made for those that couldn't payback the loan or for bad borrowers, it was made for those that COULD payback the loan but just, I mean just missed the cut off.

The shyt these guys were selling that led to the mortgage crisis was just pure trash.

 

[backbreaker]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...kers-out-earn-private-sector-study-shows.html

 

[DanelMadr]

We are in serious problems I fear it is because we are like kids. We want everything and we want it now and of course with no work involved.

Useless degrees, useless job positions with no added value like (communication, personnel etc.) and shareholders do not care because they get their cut. These people have easy life sucking out the profit the companies made earlier. Most of the people are takers only with tremendous appetite and growing....free health care, bail outs, status quo, child support....paradise on Earth.

No responsibility, bureaucracy grows to control all the freebies and programs so people can have it all, which brings even more inefficiency.

Well, we've reached the point where the train is slowing because there is no one to shovel. Everyone is just enjoying the ride, shoving caviar down his throat. And to make it worse....people are aware of it and have doubts. And guess what...economy is based on expectations - we are not 'give me chicken, I give you silver earrings' economy. We loan money based on expectations.

Are we strong enough to do something about it before it is too late like in Greece?
Cut the f@cking spending aka bribing the voters. Demand it.
I don't envy Obama, he was elected to 'bail out the poor' and he will have to do the opposite and cut some throats or it will crumble all.

Cut spending and BS programs, state is the worst manager, tie it's hands. You wanna some justice for the rich too? Nuke the Caymans and refuse them citizenship.

 

[synergy1]

Well, we've reached the point where the train is slowing because there is no one to shovel. Everyone is just enjoying the ride, shoving caviar down his throat. And to make it worse....people are aware of it and have doubts. And guess what...economy is based on expectations - we are not 'give me chicken, I give you silver earrings' economy. We loan money based on expectations.

Cut spending and BS programs, state is the worst manager, tie it's hands. You wanna some justice for the rich too? Nuke the Caymans and refuse them citizenship.

I like your first paragraph, its very telling of the past 10 years. I have been musing about this with my friends lately, but I find that people are obsessed with the future but can't predict it too well. What do I mean? What I mean is that we have people spending their days 'forecasting' everything from weather to quarterly earnings of public companies. A study shows that people , in general, are unable to tell about how they will feel about a future even today.

College debt is a symptom of something much worse. Leveraging debt implies that the things society produces are unavailable for intimidate purchase by society. The sign of a bad economy is when people are unable to purchase what they produce, and we are seeing this with unemployment and decreasing sales across the board. Things like insurance, and debt are coping mechanisms so we can continue to consume these things. College prices have easily outpaced inflation and are out of the range of most families when you consider 200,000 $ for tuition for each child. Prior to the great depression, the stratification of wealth in the USA was only slightly higher than it is now (% wealth for the small subset at the top). Basically people were in the same situation as we are now. How they fixed it is completely different than what we are trying now, but that is a subject for another day.