Can someone give me some insight here? I'm not having very good luck with this. I've gone at the best 50/50 on first date flakes and I'm batting 100 on 3rd date flakes this year. Either I'm doing something wrong or women are actually that crazy. Either way, I can't put my finger on it. What I am learning though is that it doesn't bother me anymore when women flake. I expect women to flake so it actually makes me happier when they don't. Seriously though, what kind of society do we live in where this is exceptable behavior? I would rather a woman tell me she isn't interested right off the bat then flake on me and have me waste my time. Better yet, I would rather be able to sniff them out right away so I don't even waste my time setting up the date.
How to sniff out a flake
- Thread starter the_m@n
- Start date
I think I understand what you're writing. 50/50 on the first date is a good thing. You're probably a good looking fella or smooth talker. But flakes 100% on the 3rd date just means you can't hold a conversation or awkward as heck. You have a friend that can critique the way you talk to women?
As for sniffing out flakes...it's a tough one. Sometimes experience will tell you if you should setup the next date, sometimes you can't even tell. The main thing I look for is the level of interest of the girl and how responsive she is to my touching. You better start touching the ladies on the first date.
As for sniffing out flakes...it's a tough one. Sometimes experience will tell you if you should setup the next date, sometimes you can't even tell. The main thing I look for is the level of interest of the girl and how responsive she is to my touching. You better start touching the ladies on the first date.
Mike32ct
Master Don Juan
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 8,113
- Reaction score
- 4,724
If she says the following at the end of date #1, you have a 95% chance of nevering hearing from her again:
"It was nice meeting you."
"It was nice meeting you."
scrouds
Master Don Juan
Have an example date or 2? My gut says you may not be escalating.
A flake on date three means she was intersted in you, but now isn't. Happened to me a lot when I wasn't properly escalating.
A flake on date three means she was intersted in you, but now isn't. Happened to me a lot when I wasn't properly escalating.
If a girl doesnt touch you or be giving you positive body language on the first date, then shes not interested and will most likely flake in the future.
With very few exceptions in my experience at least, the women who have shown very clear IOIs fom the beginning have never flaked on me.
Learn to read her body so that you can discern quickly whether shes worth anymore effort.
With very few exceptions in my experience at least, the women who have shown very clear IOIs fom the beginning have never flaked on me.
Learn to read her body so that you can discern quickly whether shes worth anymore effort.
If you want to talk, talk to your friends. If you want a girl to like you, listen to her, ask questions, and act like you are on the edge of your seat.
Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.
Boilermaker
Master Don Juan
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2010
- Messages
- 1,332
- Reaction score
- 76
let's be honest.scrouds said:Have an example date or 2? My gut says you may not be escalating.
A flake on date three means she was intersted in you, but now isn't. Happened to me a lot when I wasn't properly escalating.
nobody leaves a prospect because he didn't escalate quick enough
It is either:
i) You are not coming off as a catch, or
ii) You are not coming off as a player they feel they have to have a fling with.
Not properly escalating could only be relevant if it lowers your value in some highly unlikely scenario, like you HAD to escalate but you didn't and you came off as a wimp. I don't think that happens too often. Women don't complain about Alpha's not fvcking them by the fourth date. They are even usually happy if an alpha is taking an interest in them and taking his sweet time.
The problem is deeper and more fundamental.
Give us more data.
scrouds
Master Don Juan
Well... If you're not escalating, you're just letting the AFC shine. That'll turn off the girls by date 3 easy. It all depends on the details and to random chance with the chicks, so we'll see. Escalation is not the be-all end-all, but it can hide enough AFC to get laid.Boilermaker said:let's be honest.
nobody leaves a prospect because he didn't escalate quick enough
It is either:
i) You are not coming off as a catch, or
ii) You are not coming off as a player they feel they have to have a fling with.
Not properly escalating could only be relevant if it lowers your value in some highly unlikely scenario, like you HAD to escalate but you didn't and you came off as a wimp. I don't think that happens too often. Women don't complain about Alpha's not fvcking them by the fourth date. They are even usually happy if an alpha is taking an interest in them and taking his sweet time.
The problem is deeper and more fundamental.
Give us more data.
Actually lack of escalation is a big factor, but understand it's tied into confidence. Unless a girl thinks you're way above her status level she's going LJBF if you don't escalate quickly. You have to keep a sexual frame and kino is a large portion of that. When you draw it out you give her the impression either you're too timid or you're looking for a serious relationship.Boilermaker said:let's be honest.
nobody leaves a prospect because he didn't escalate quick enough
It is either:
i) You are not coming off as a catch, or
ii) You are not coming off as a player they feel they have to have a fling with.
Not properly escalating could only be relevant if it lowers your value in some highly unlikely scenario, like you HAD to escalate but you didn't and you came off as a wimp. I don't think that happens too often. Women don't complain about Alpha's not fvcking them by the fourth date. They are even usually happy if an alpha is taking an interest in them and taking his sweet time.
The problem is deeper and more fundamental.
Give us more data.
Of course it's all realtive to your status vis a vis her status ... if you're an 8 and she's a 4 you have more rope than you know what to do with ... however if you're a 7 and she's a 7 you've got a small margin for error.
backbreaker
Master Don Juan
This is something that i applied in my web development business, but it's the same principles behind it. This is, believe it or not, even the same principle behind my handicapping, i've never told anyone that until now.
When i first started out, i would talk to 10-15 clients a day, run myself ragged putting together 10 or so proposals a day, each taking 30-45 minutes to do, sending follow up emails, etc, killing myself. only to get about, what, maybe 1-2 clients a day, that's let's than a 10% conversation ratio. that's horrible. Even then, some of the clients that i ended up going with, were really ****ty, some were really great.
I eventually learned, that it's fruitless to try to talk to every client who shows the slightest interest. First, I'm very young, at the time i started this business i wasn't even 25 years old yet. I am extremely meticulous, which believe it or not, rubs people the wrong way (nothing pisses me off more than spending an hour putting together a proposal, for a project that is quite complex, only to have a client say "look i didn't read all that what can you do this for, then 3 months later they are calling you telling you about how they got scammed by their programmer who promised them the world (told them what they wanted to hear)), some of them at least. We are also better at certain things than other things, and our better jobs usually came from the things we were really good at and could show it.
After a really ****ty day one day about a year and a half ago, my now wife suggests that "why don't you take a document and think about all the really good clients you had, and try to see if they have anything in common". i wanted to kiss her right then, that was a stroke of genius.
So I sat down, and wrote down, 15 projects that stood out to me as being really really godo projects from start to finish. And lo and behold, every last one of them, from start, to finish, followed the exact same patern
From jump street, they were, like me, very meticulous, no nonsesnse type people. They were all male (there is a difference, sorry). They all knew, to the T, what they wanted. They were all above avg in programming savvy, yet not having the skill set to do this particular job. They all wanted something that i could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt we could do. NOne of them were what you would call "burned" and didn't come into the project scorned. Some people you talk to and the first thing they want to tell you about is how their last devehttp://www.sosuave.net/forum/images/editor/separator.gifloper, or 5, ripped them off or did htis or did that.
In short, they all followed a pattern that was extremely distinctive. So I said o;kay, now that i have this info, i'm going to take a chance and just try to focus on THESE people.. keep in mind this was still a chance because i was use to more shotgunning people and still thought i was throwing away money by not talking to everyone who was interested. Boy was i wrong lol.
Not only did i have to put in less time, i spent MORE time focusing on these people, usually 1-2 clients a day. i brought in MORE work, because i was able to spend more time on that client, and they usually paid MORE money. In about 5 months our avg project amount went from about 2100 to about 4 grand, and 5 figure projects were not uncommon.
I use the same phislophy now in my horse racing handicapping.. i look for very very speccific things, and i go all in. My strike ratio is between 35-45% on those races, and i'm making more money.
How does this appy to you? it's simple, see what the women had in common, see what you did, see whatever similarities there were, and most importantly, every good relationship, follows a vague pattern, identify that pattern. The first time something is off that pattern, bail.
For instance, usually a client will come to us and would pay between half and 33% deposit for a project, this is standard stuff. I don't even so much care about the money but it's a buffer. Someone that goes against that with any objections, bye. You are having trouble coming up with the deposit but 'go ahead and start i will send payment soon" bye. most my clients don't contact me on the weekends, the first time a client calls me at 4pm on a Saturday i will send him his money back. A client that 'has" to use paypal or a credit card i will delete their information, that's a client who is going to use a chargeback over your head to get you to do **** you don't want to do otherwise.
clients are exactly like women actually. most think that becuase they have money (i.e pvssy) that they have the power in the relationship and most develoeprs don't think twice about this, and arescared to "turn away a project" because of the "money". You d not know how many times I've been called unprofessional because i basically told a client he can take a job and shove it up his ass and sent him a check for his deposit. i'm not having any of it. You will do things my way, if you want the job you want done right, or you can hit the high road.
When i first started out, i would talk to 10-15 clients a day, run myself ragged putting together 10 or so proposals a day, each taking 30-45 minutes to do, sending follow up emails, etc, killing myself. only to get about, what, maybe 1-2 clients a day, that's let's than a 10% conversation ratio. that's horrible. Even then, some of the clients that i ended up going with, were really ****ty, some were really great.
I eventually learned, that it's fruitless to try to talk to every client who shows the slightest interest. First, I'm very young, at the time i started this business i wasn't even 25 years old yet. I am extremely meticulous, which believe it or not, rubs people the wrong way (nothing pisses me off more than spending an hour putting together a proposal, for a project that is quite complex, only to have a client say "look i didn't read all that what can you do this for, then 3 months later they are calling you telling you about how they got scammed by their programmer who promised them the world (told them what they wanted to hear)), some of them at least. We are also better at certain things than other things, and our better jobs usually came from the things we were really good at and could show it.
After a really ****ty day one day about a year and a half ago, my now wife suggests that "why don't you take a document and think about all the really good clients you had, and try to see if they have anything in common". i wanted to kiss her right then, that was a stroke of genius.
So I sat down, and wrote down, 15 projects that stood out to me as being really really godo projects from start to finish. And lo and behold, every last one of them, from start, to finish, followed the exact same patern
From jump street, they were, like me, very meticulous, no nonsesnse type people. They were all male (there is a difference, sorry). They all knew, to the T, what they wanted. They were all above avg in programming savvy, yet not having the skill set to do this particular job. They all wanted something that i could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt we could do. NOne of them were what you would call "burned" and didn't come into the project scorned. Some people you talk to and the first thing they want to tell you about is how their last devehttp://www.sosuave.net/forum/images/editor/separator.gifloper, or 5, ripped them off or did htis or did that.
In short, they all followed a pattern that was extremely distinctive. So I said o;kay, now that i have this info, i'm going to take a chance and just try to focus on THESE people.. keep in mind this was still a chance because i was use to more shotgunning people and still thought i was throwing away money by not talking to everyone who was interested. Boy was i wrong lol.
Not only did i have to put in less time, i spent MORE time focusing on these people, usually 1-2 clients a day. i brought in MORE work, because i was able to spend more time on that client, and they usually paid MORE money. In about 5 months our avg project amount went from about 2100 to about 4 grand, and 5 figure projects were not uncommon.
I use the same phislophy now in my horse racing handicapping.. i look for very very speccific things, and i go all in. My strike ratio is between 35-45% on those races, and i'm making more money.
How does this appy to you? it's simple, see what the women had in common, see what you did, see whatever similarities there were, and most importantly, every good relationship, follows a vague pattern, identify that pattern. The first time something is off that pattern, bail.
For instance, usually a client will come to us and would pay between half and 33% deposit for a project, this is standard stuff. I don't even so much care about the money but it's a buffer. Someone that goes against that with any objections, bye. You are having trouble coming up with the deposit but 'go ahead and start i will send payment soon" bye. most my clients don't contact me on the weekends, the first time a client calls me at 4pm on a Saturday i will send him his money back. A client that 'has" to use paypal or a credit card i will delete their information, that's a client who is going to use a chargeback over your head to get you to do **** you don't want to do otherwise.
clients are exactly like women actually. most think that becuase they have money (i.e pvssy) that they have the power in the relationship and most develoeprs don't think twice about this, and arescared to "turn away a project" because of the "money". You d not know how many times I've been called unprofessional because i basically told a client he can take a job and shove it up his ass and sent him a check for his deposit. i'm not having any of it. You will do things my way, if you want the job you want done right, or you can hit the high road.
yeah if at the end of the first date they dont say something with some reference to the future you're out imo. They must say something like, lets do this again or you've got my email or call me I had a great time etc. As soon as a woman flakes on you though shes out unless she had a genuine reason.
Channel your excited feelings into positive thoughts and behaviors. You will attract women by being enthusiastic, radiating energy, and becoming someone who is fun to be around.
Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.
window said:yeah if at the end of the first date they dont say something with some reference to the future you're out imo. They must say something like, lets do this again or you've got my email or call me I had a great time etc. As soon as a woman flakes on you though shes out unless she had a genuine reason.
Dont agree with this. Women are by nature cowards and will say almost anything just to lead the guy on or not hurt his feelings when in fact she never liked him.
Ive had scores of dates where the women would say, lets do this again or call me and would disappear off the face of the earth. If shes not invading my space, touching me, etc. or giving off subconcious IOIs then I know whatever comes out of her mouth is a crock of shyt and wont even bother calling her for a second date.
As I said before the true measure of a womans IL is non verbal (body language). Im a keen observer of BL and it has helped me sort out the potential flakes immensely.
Ok. I've read through the replies thus far and thought I would offer some more information. Thank you everyone.
The last 4 women I have dated have all expressed interest in meeting up again. They verbally would ask me: "When am I going to see you again?" In my mind I was thinking this was a good thing. I usually would call them in a couple days and set up the next date.
Thinking back now, I'm not sure I had ever gotten overly touchy recently with women on the first date. In the past, the times that I have gotten touchy with women, it usually lead to a make-out session for the end of the first and the entire second date or a one night stand. I'm not against making out with women, but I've been wanting to actually get to know them, so I think subconciously I've been holding back. All of my second dates have ended with a kiss close. Looking back though, the second dates that started with a kiss opener ended with a first date kiss close. Is this my mistake?
Most of the time, the women who made out on the first date and later flaked appeared to have issues that stemmed beyond spending time with me. I'm not sure I'll ever know the truth because I've found that most women overanalyze everything. They "nexted" me for reasons unapparent to me and probably unapparent to them as well. Women tend to cook sh*t up in their heads that makes no logical sense.
I haven't really experienced a situation where I haven't been able to hold a conversation or thing have gotten awkward. One date I had last year had hardly any conversation but the girl was the one being awkward so I was able to make sense of that right away.
It seems to me that I am the one who is not escalating. Perhaps I have a problem picking up subtle hints recently.
I'm definitely not affraid to make a move by any means. I suppose it's more of a matter of looking for something more which has been holding me back.
Most of the women that have flaked have had seemingly genuine reasons but it was their timing and repedity that through me off to believing their validity. What I mean is, date 1 flakes for what I believe to be a good reason, but so does date 2 and date 3 so after a while I just don't believe any of them. Plus, they tend to flake the day of without any reference to re-schedule so I next them regardless of how genuine their reasons are.
In the end, it seems like I have lost my way in the escalation realm. Can people give me some positive examples?
The last 4 women I have dated have all expressed interest in meeting up again. They verbally would ask me: "When am I going to see you again?" In my mind I was thinking this was a good thing. I usually would call them in a couple days and set up the next date.
Thinking back now, I'm not sure I had ever gotten overly touchy recently with women on the first date. In the past, the times that I have gotten touchy with women, it usually lead to a make-out session for the end of the first and the entire second date or a one night stand. I'm not against making out with women, but I've been wanting to actually get to know them, so I think subconciously I've been holding back. All of my second dates have ended with a kiss close. Looking back though, the second dates that started with a kiss opener ended with a first date kiss close. Is this my mistake?
Most of the time, the women who made out on the first date and later flaked appeared to have issues that stemmed beyond spending time with me. I'm not sure I'll ever know the truth because I've found that most women overanalyze everything. They "nexted" me for reasons unapparent to me and probably unapparent to them as well. Women tend to cook sh*t up in their heads that makes no logical sense.
I haven't really experienced a situation where I haven't been able to hold a conversation or thing have gotten awkward. One date I had last year had hardly any conversation but the girl was the one being awkward so I was able to make sense of that right away.
It seems to me that I am the one who is not escalating. Perhaps I have a problem picking up subtle hints recently.
I'm definitely not affraid to make a move by any means. I suppose it's more of a matter of looking for something more which has been holding me back.
Most of the women that have flaked have had seemingly genuine reasons but it was their timing and repedity that through me off to believing their validity. What I mean is, date 1 flakes for what I believe to be a good reason, but so does date 2 and date 3 so after a while I just don't believe any of them. Plus, they tend to flake the day of without any reference to re-schedule so I next them regardless of how genuine their reasons are.
In the end, it seems like I have lost my way in the escalation realm. Can people give me some positive examples?
I think the issue here is comfort for the women. By your description, you are having decent success in the first and second dates. You are getting kisses, which indicates some level of romantic/sexual interest. But they are flaking by the third. It's not only about whether or not you escate, but how you escalate. Women will even justify first date sex to themselves if they are led to believe that they were overcome by the "right" feelings. But sometimes, women feel "wrong" after kissing/making out/sex. It's important to build an emotional bond too. This will make it less likely to trigger her anti-slvt defense mechanisms.
SecondHalf
Master Don Juan
What are you doing with them?
Coffee date followed by dinner date followed by movie ... that would kill it.
Get a drink in them, get them laughing and follow the advice already given, you should be fine.
SH
Coffee date followed by dinner date followed by movie ... that would kill it.
Get a drink in them, get them laughing and follow the advice already given, you should be fine.
SH
scrouds
Master Don Juan
In my experience, grandparents die quick and very often. I don't take flake excuses at face value.
Peace and Quiet
If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.
Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.
This will quickly drive all women away from you.
And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.
First Date: Drinks or if I've talked to the person for a little bit and have been flirty, then I tend to lean toward an action date.SecondHalf said:What are you doing with them?
Coffee date followed by dinner date followed by movie ... that would kill it.
Get a drink in them, get them laughing and follow the advice already given, you should be fine.
SH
Second Date: Coffee/Drinks (usually ends with a nice walk) or action date like Billiards or Bowling
Third Date (If I can get there): Action Date
I tend to stay away from dinner and movies as my past experience has told me to save those types of dates until I am comfortable being physical with the woman.
I've noticed that the action dates usually lead to more physical contact, competitiveness and overall flirtiness. I can usally play for something and win/lose(win) on the action dates.
backbreaker
Master Don Juan
i can honestly say i have never in my life, ever been on a dinner and a movie date. I've done the movies. I've done dinner. but i've never done dinner and a movie. the cloest thing to that is i went to go see i robot and i picked up a bacon egg and cheese sammich on the way home from waffle housethe_m@n said:First Date: Drinks or if I've talked to the person for a little bit and have been flirty, then I tend to lean toward an action date.
Second Date: Coffee/Drinks (usually ends with a nice walk) or action date like Billiards or Bowling
Third Date (If I can get there): Action Date
I tend to stay away from dinner and movies as my past experience has told me to save those types of dates until I am comfortable being physical with the woman.
I've noticed that the action dates usually lead to more physical contact, competitiveness and overall flirtiness. I can usally play for something and win/lose(win) on the action dates.
dammit i'm going to go to a dinner and go to the movies this weekend just to say we did it.
SecondHalf
Master Don Juan
Sounds OK.the_m@n said:First Date: Drinks or if I've talked to the person for a little bit and have been flirty, then I tend to lean toward an action date.
Second Date: Coffee/Drinks (usually ends with a nice walk) or action date like Billiards or Bowling
Third Date (If I can get there): Action Date
I tend to stay away from dinner and movies as my past experience has told me to save those types of dates until I am comfortable being physical with the woman.
I've noticed that the action dates usually lead to more physical contact, competitiveness and overall flirtiness. I can usally play for something and win/lose(win) on the action dates.
When I meet someone new, I find it works best if I can get them in a corner table at a jazz bar (1 hour prior to band starting). Booth better than chairs.
I hate having to sit across the table from them. It make Kino a little awkward.
I refuse to go to coffee unless it's the morning after!
I also find it important to make some memories as early as possible. Something they think about and you can joke about later.
The most important thing is to have a bunch of dates with different women so you're juggling to the point of frustration. They just smell it. When you date one at a time, they just seem to know and are not interested as a result!
SH