How To Control The Frame

[MacAvoy]

You're giving the woman time... time to reflect on you, how she enjoyed herself when last meeting you; time for her to anticipate, savor seeing you again; time for her to wonder about you, be on her mind, "why hasn't he called like all the others?", "does he like me?", "this guy's different than all the others" - All that can make her more interested. She may even call you in that time period. Now she's chasing you - and you haven't even been with her again, much less called her.

This is how love is created, in our brains by thinking about the other person and thinking about how good that other person makes you feel.

I agree completely with Mr Me's analysis. If she is genuinely interested, then 3, 5, or 10 days won't matter. However in the real world, we deal with primarily non genuinely interested women and in order to keep the plate spinning, a plate needs SOME attention.

But it all depends on what you are looking for, are you looking to keep many plates spinning, are you looking for only quality relationships with genuinely interested women, are you looking for a string of ONS. These factors will help determine how you play the game or maybe better worded, what game to play.

 

[Colossus]

Great post, Guru. I agree wholeheartedly on the IL stuff. It is the "systems base" of many a successful DJ.

However, I disagree that options are the backbone of confidence. Confidence must come from within. Options can be thought of like the supporting cables of a great bridge, or the butresses of a castle. The are not the core of the structure itself, but without them the bridge or castle would eventually crumble. They are edification structures. If one breaks, you have others to depend on, and you replace the broken one. If they all break, the core structure, YOU, will not immediately crumble, because you have built yourself on wisdom, experience, and sound principles...but you must rebuild that structural support and edification network of options.

But back to the frame discussion--- I am in an interesting situation with a particular woman right now. I think sometimes, rarely, you can find youself in a somewhat neutral frame scenario. These have a short half-life, but with certain women it sometimes begins this way. I have only been on 2 dates with her, so this is more or less speculative, but I cant really assign a frame to either party. It is definitely not in her favor, but then again I wouldnt say I have a massive upper hand. She is highly successful, intelligent, accomplished, and attractive. Tremendous sexual charge between us. Heavy PDA on date # 2; great conversations. But both of us are willing to walk away at the first defunct. She knows, at least intuitively, that I pursue other options, and I am sure she does the same; so neither party is insecure.

One way I like to keep things in my frame is by having them come to see me, almost exclusively. Especially if there is some driving distance. I will certainly meet halfway or go to her place if she lives alone, but I will NEVER go to her place first. If she is willing to drive all the way to my place, and back the next day, then to me that's a pretty solid IOI.

 

[Colossus]

BTW Juando---

Just my opinion, but I would never call a new girl more than ONCE if she doesnt return my call. And I do not leave messages, unless we are already established.

 

[logic1]

And I do not leave messages, unless we are already established.

I think this is one of the most immature things you can do. This is something women do, not men. If your not prepared to leave a message, dont call the dam number.

Fricken games will get you nowhere.

Maybe you have your reasoning, maybe I need schooled, so, please help me.

 

[Colossus]

I think this is one of the most immature things you can do. This is something women do, not men. If your not prepared to leave a message, dont call the dam number.

Fricken games will get you nowhere.

Maybe you have your reasoning, maybe I need schooled, so, please help me.

It has nothing to do with games. It's just generally an AFC move. A few reasons:

- It conveys, albiet covertly, desperation. They may think nothing of it, but leaving a 'hey call me back' message with a woman whose number you just recieved doesn't really paint a picture of a Man with lots of options.

- If she is truly interested in you, she will be anticipating your call and will most likely answer an unknown #. Everyone has caller ID these days.

- Lastly, it does lend an element of mystery when you dont leave one. "Oh he called...Why didnt he leave a message? Maybe he wants to get together..." Granted that's all dependent on interest level, but that's what we're trying to ascertain, right?

Of course there are exceptions, like if you're running late, something comes up, etc.

This might seem like a nitpicky rule, but it's just my personal thing. Keep in mind this rule only applies to NEW prospects. After you have been out a couple of times then messages are fine. You can do what you want regardless, but it has been my experience that leaving messages early on (and unnecessarily at any point in a relationship) is not condusive to setting the frame in your favor.

 

[Mr. Me]

Doesn't calling and not leaving a message also risk coming off as somewhat creepy? Almost like a hang up? If I saw someone's caller ID popping up all the time and never leaving a message, I'd think they're trying to get me when I'm in but not letting me know they're calling. Comes off like stalking me.

I agree to not leave a "call me back" message. What I do is say just this:

"Hey... it's Mr. Me.
Looks like I didn't catch you in.
Let's touch base another time. Bye!"

That's it. What I've done is said NOTHING. Can't even tell from my wording if I intend to call back or if I'm expecting her to.

Still has some mystery about it, as opposed to guys who leave detailed messages like, "Hey! I was thinking of, how about dinner this Saturday? I know a great place for Italian. I could pick you up about 7. We could do drinks afterwards, there's a great new spot that opened up, I hear there's music this weekend too. You like music, right? Call me back!"

Nope. Just a nothing message to let her know I called and am not being creepy by not leaving messages. And I don't expect a call back. But if she does calls back, that's a bonus, being an IOI.

 

[logic1]

It has nothing to do with games. It's just generally an AFC move. A few reasons:

- It conveys, albiet covertly, desperation. They may think nothing of it, but leaving a 'hey call me back' message with a woman whose number you just recieved doesn't really paint a picture of a Man with lots of options.

- If she is truly interested in you, she will be anticipating your call and will most likely answer an unknown #. Everyone has caller ID these days.

- Lastly, it does lend an element of mystery when you dont leave one. "Oh he called...Why didnt he leave a message? Maybe he wants to get together..." Granted that's all dependent on interest level, but that's what we're trying to ascertain, right?

Of course there are exceptions, like if you're running late, something comes up, etc.

This might seem like a nitpicky rule, but it's just my personal thing. Keep in mind this rule only applies to NEW prospects. After you have been out a couple of times then messages are fine. You can do what you want regardless, but it has been my experience that leaving messages early on (and unnecessarily at any point in a relationship) is not condusive to setting the frame in your favor.

You have some good points but I wont buy into most of them. AFC, desperation, options, ect. dont play into leaving a message for a number that you asked for.

I feel alot of the reactions determines the age group you are dealing with and their mentality. This could be discussed in a whole different thread. We are from 2 different decades. I'm sure we see things different in our different age groups.

I find most "normal" women who offer their number will call back after you leave a message. If they dont they are not interested or have the game playing mentality. In a way I find it a good way to filter out the ones with low interest. Like they say if a women has a high interest level nothing will get in her way including returning a phone call for someone who had the balls to leave a " good " message on her phone.

 

[jophil28]

I started practicing the "3 day wait" rule sort of following the party line.
Lately I've been hearing about waiting 5 days based on the usual don't let 'em see you as eager philosophy.

I get the logic of waiting.

But after this experience Jophil's take on this also totally makes sense.

What's you're guys latest take on this issue?

Like I said, after this experience I'm gonna be leaning towards striking while the iron's hot and save the wait routine for more particular situations.

Look, The 3 day rule is a general guideline. only. The common belief that a call to her in a lesser time makes you look needy and desperate is crap. It all depends on the quality and type of initial meeting.
AS an example - If you met someone and had a 'deep and meaningful' encounter which lasted several hours then the 3 day rule might apply (perhaps you met her at a lecture or in a coffee shop chat over three hours). If this happened and you and she originally connected as two adults in a great convo, then a slow and measured approach is the way to go. Her IL will remain 'up' for quite a while .
However if you met someone in "playtime" (your original post), then your oniginal connection was with her as a 'child.' You and she were out playing like a couple kids. This requires that you follow-up contact her much sooner because her 'child' will lose interest quickly ( as children do ). Her IL when you were 'playing' may have been thru the roof BUT it will NOT stay up there (as you found out).
This whole "Interest level" belief sytem needs to be applied in context and with regard to the setting of the original meeting.

There is no "one size fits all " rule.

 

[guru1000]

I started practicing the "3 day wait" rule sort of following the party line.
Lately I've been hearing about waiting 5 days based on the usual don't let 'em see you as eager philosophy.

I get the logic of waiting.

But after this experience Jophil's take on this also totally makes sense.

What's you're guys latest take on this issue?

Like I said, after this experience I'm gonna be leaning towards striking while the iron's hot and save the wait routine for more particular situations.

The 3 Day Rule was created to increase IL in a woman by making her wonder in anticipation if you are going to call. Granted this would work only if she initially started with a High IL.

I do not want to increase initial IL. The IL must be there at the initial encounter or it ends there. Some will say you cannot create a IL high enough at the initial encounter. I say BS. I am living proof.

My style is anti-PUA. My goals are different. I am only interested in high IL. I do not want to create an inflated IL only for it to drop when there is no support. This is known in my business as the PUMP AND DUMP. You artificially inflate the price of a stock by increasing the demand only to later to find out the market cannot hold the support and the stock plunges to 0. BTW this is a crime.

This is a crime to your heart as well. You should not try to increase IL. She will inevitably be interested in your INFLATED SELF and not YOU, as you sit there scratching your head wondering why she left.

I create instantaneous high IL by VALUE. My value is recognized within minutes. This includes appearance, demeanor and prize mentality.

I am often called ****y and arrogant. These are GOOD words for a woman to call you. This means you have a sense of GRANDIOSITY and ENTITLEMENT. According to society these are bad psychological traits to possess. BOOHOO, Donald Trump should then be considered a bad guy but he is successful.

However to a woman, this is the key. I do not pretend to be. I am. Reality says I may not be according to my history. What matters is what I beleive. This is 75% of the initial encounter.

If you are the PRIZE then you will know what is appropriate.

What is wrong with this picture? Donald Trump wondering when he should call a girl after he gets her number.

The secret is in BEING, not KNOWING.

I will often call a girl the same night I get the number. If HIGH IL is not there, I am not interested.

I have 4 plates right now (No, I didnt unload them on VALENTINES ). All are great girls. I had their IL high from the initial encounter.

One of them last night told me " If you continue to see other women, I will not be with you". I said OK. She replies" I don't know what it is about you, I just cannot leave you".

A woman who has high IL in the genuine YOU and not who you pretend to be will remain LOYAL as long as you remain loyal to who you are.

 

[Latinoman]

Bump (for me to check out later).

 

[Solomon]

Great post....

However I'm conflicted with this
As seducers a Don Juan who is skilled in the art of seduction can turn a medium IL chick or Low IL chick into a High IL chick
HOw does one do this?
It depends, for me(talking experince) how it worked is excatly how Guru said, I left those girls alone, and did my "thing" came to them later when their "buying temptature" was higher, and was able to close. However After the "Tryst" I lost them, why? My value dropped. Like Str8up said I went from Guy A to guy D (basically out the picture)

While high IL does help, it shouldn't be the only basis for everything. IL can vary and change in a drop of a hat. Those chicks who had low IL initally I never thought I'd bang'em until I was pounding away inside them. As a Seducer you have abdudnace (something Guru has talked about as wel, and I as welll) as your ally.

So In my opinon to maintain high IL, you have to set the guidlines like Guru said but also show Value (i.e. that you are the prize)

just my 2 dollars (use 2 be 2 cents but due to inflation and **** it's up, credit Jophill for that one lol)

 

[Jitterbug]

I think guru's post would be better understood if you substitute HIGH IL with Consistently HIGH IL.

A girl whose IL in you seems low one day and high the next, that you happen to nail at the right time & place when her IL is high, is not a HIGH IL girl as referred to by guru's post.

Many of the guys that find this forum are getting laid but bamboozled & made miserable by a low-medium IL woman.

 

[Poonani Maker]

I think guru's post would be better understood if you substitute HIGH IL with Consistently HIGH IL.

A girl whose IL in you seems low one day and high the next, that you happen to nail at the right time & place when her IL is high, is not a HIGH IL girl as referred to by guru's post.

Many of the guys that find this forum are getting laid but bamboozled & made miserable by a low-medium IL woman.

I've got to fvckin agree. I can count on one finger, One girl, who's got "consistent" High IL for me. All the others are not asking my buds "where's Poonani (insert my real name)?" or cornering me whenever I do see her in person, because she knows I'll try to avoid her because I keep saying in my mind that I would never marry This one. Sometimes, as guys, we've just got to Take the most interested ones, and say to Hell with all the rest Even if all the rest are the ones we Think we want. 13 years younger than me and not half bad is what I may have to settle for because she's the most desperate for me in the past 3 years.

 

[zekko]

I do not CHASE women. I do not need to. High IL women chase me. I spend my energies finding HIGH IL women who pursue me.

There are a lot of guys on this forum who seem interested in having women pursue them. So do you mind elaborating on this? How exactly do you spend your energies finding high IL women who pursue you?
Or do you still do the approaching, and just keep the high IL ones in rotation?

 

[guru1000]

There are a lot of guys on this forum who seem interested in having women pursue them. So do you mind elaborating on this? How exactly do you spend your energies finding high IL women who pursue you?
Or do you still do the approaching, and just keep the high IL ones in rotation?

By refusing to spend time with women who do not display high IL. Essentially, you are preemptively NEXTing in order to keep your pipeline open to women who are worthy of your time and energy, high IL.

This is just another filtering mechanism with the latent purpose of eliminating losing investments.

 

[countermart]

This is just another filtering mechanism with the latent purpose of eliminating losing investments.

This again all comes down to how she is treating you as the primary determinant of whether you continue the relationship. If she does not return calls, or shows a change in interest then she fails, and you move on.

You can do whatever you like (within reason of course, call ten minutes after meeting, call 3 days) but in the end all that matters is, how is she treating you?

Set your standard, and if she starts to treat you below that standard then you cut your loss fast and move on. This is the only real way to filter girls for quality.

So stop worrying about what you should do, and look at what she is doing. Stop bending yourself to what you think she wants and likes, just be the man and go after what you want (again within reason).

Is she meeting your standards? No DJ puts up with sub-standard treatment he walks, and everything becomes clear and simple.

Countermart