How much protein?

[groundzero]

I did a search and couldn't find anything. Can anyone tell me how much protein you need in a day. Grams or percentage? Open to any suggestions. And is Soy protein better than Whey?

 

[Warboss Alex]

Oooooooooh. My favourite subject.

As close to 2g per lb bodyweight (or target bodyweight, but this doesn't mean if you're 150 and want to get to 250 you should take in 500g every day..) as possible. Make sure you take in at least two gallons of water (water, not soda or tea etc) to help your body process all the protein.

Come on, we should all know the answer to this.. even MindOverMatter's taken the 2g protein route! (a heathen unbeliever at first, but has finally sought redemption in the form of doubling his meat portions; maybe the iron gods will be merciful after all and not condemn him to a nightmare existence where he must do set after set of tricep kickbacks for all eternity, wearing a pink ballerina's kit and watching Barney.)

 

[Jay-X]

i'm 150 and i don't seem to be able to get enough protein... i mean, i'm somehow gaining weight, but i can't get 330 proteins a day, man...

i already drink 2 liters of milk a day (and that is around 60g of prot), lots of tuna (about 40 g of protein a day), meat (another 60 g or so) and, say, another 40 g from other food... maybe slightly more, but i'm definetely under 250 g... i don't want to spend money on shakes and bars anymore, so i think, i'll go this way for some time...

 

[A-Unit]

Re:

The Great Debate.

To protein or not to protein.

When you're lifting for muscle, the first caveat is to consume MORE calories than you expend. It wouldn't matter if you did 3g/#lb of body weight, if you didn't EAT more calories than you burned per day.

The question then is, how many calories is sufficient for progress?

A pound of anything is 3500 calories, so it would stand to reason that 500 calories per day extra would suffice to gain 1lb per week.

The amount of calories per day won't be the same though.

If your workout plan is 3 days per week, then you'll have 3 days of high calorie consumption, and 4 days of moderate consumption.

Say your baseline, day-to-day calories burnining is 2000.

You'd eat 2500 on non-workout days and about 2750 or 3000 on workout days.

Why?

The 500 extra on nonworkout days insures you're gaining and growing. It fills up the muscles with the carbs, which thereby increase muscle size with water consumption (water clings to carbs, which is why atkin's freaks lose lots of weight, and muscle).

Now on workout days, we must put back that which we burn. The exercises are simply to SPAWN growth, not to burn calories, so we must put back what we eat plus eat the extra calorie needed to add an extra pound a week.

You may find extra weight or size by looking in the mirror, since you'll be having 3500+ calories, plus there's all the water you drink, and the extra carbs you're having. All told, that could give you the appearance of 3+ pounds in a week. BUT if you diet, or cut, or restrict calories back to maintenance level, or back to a level of decreasing bodyfat, then it will seem you lost. In fact, you'd be holding less water and carbs in the muscles and drop all that weight. This why alot of noobs see huge gain.

*They're not used to eating alot.
*Their bodies don't have much water compared to those who are very hydrated.
*Their muscles aren't jacked with carbs with expand the muscles. (If the body is depleted of carbs/water, muscles look much smaller)

This does add weight, but not muscle size. It does add strength, endurance and size, because w/out water and carbs, and totally flat muscles, you can't lift well. You're lacking energy. You can't think well (try and atkin's diet and see how well you perform mentally).

----------------------------

I've never seen a conclusive study that says LOTS of protein leads to gains, while LOTS of carbs lead to fat. Carbs are normally fruits, vegetable, natural food, wheat, etc. Even pasta in moderation. Potatoes, legumes, etc. How can we even think of being without those foods which we digest so easily?

The benefits/deteriments of excessive protein are masked behind the huge diets of lifters and their massive quantities of calories. I know guys who manipulated their protein in take and found no difference from 60g to 200g. The difference maker was the carb in take. If they had a good amount of carbs with adequate protein they gained. If they over did protein, but nominalized carbs, they didn't gain, they had digestion problems, acid reflux, and energy issues.

--------------------------

The protein issue always raises the ire of those hardcore iron lifters because it seems it's a mans nutrient and should be consumed unquestionably in large amounts.

However, I'd prefer to see studies that say protein at certain levels with excessive calories leads to better growth than a lower level of protein. Every study I've seen said excessive protein weakens bones, puts strain on the kidney, is usually pissed out, and has no material effect on gains so long as you're eating enough calories.

Most evidence contradicts normally known findings. I'm sure there's a good number of guys here of good size to back up the beliefs of protein consumption toward 1.5g+ and most programs sold on the net say this is the minimum to take and most supplement companies say the same.

It's all touted that protein is the miracle nutrient, but gains will stop if carbs aren't consumed. Moreover, the source of carbs is most healthy, relative to protein. Protein sources are normally more detrimental than carb ones. Eggs are ok, the yoke is so so. Cottage cheese ok, too. Milk is more a carb/fat source than protein, since if you consider it's % to volume, more of it's carbs and fat depending on the brand.

Meat is suspect, and too much will, in fact, kill you. Chicken is good, as it's more pure than most, but it's still leaves something to be desired if you eat it in lbs/day.

What I'm getting at is, there's alot of hype surrounding protein consumption and I feel based on how over hyped it is, we can see looking all around us that protein consumption is hurting more than it's helping.

The American diet is known to be basically protein/fat. Other countries eat more bread, oils, fish, and fruits, vegetables than we do. They live longer, less health risk, etc. Even if you're not a bodybuilder, you still consume an inordinately large amount of protein. Whether it's going out to dinner, or eating home, most American meals have 1 portion of meat, a veggie, and a carb source or more. That's considered and affluent diet. And its worse than a European on Middle Eastern diet.

Studies have shown Asian families to be healthier than American ones. Yet when they switch to eating how we eat (high protein/high fat) they are afflicted with the same health problems we are. Why is that?

Carbs are only bad when they're refined, processed, pure sugar, corn-syrup, or high fructose sugar, etc. Not fruits, or vegetables, or sources.

How's this? The supposedly simple sugars do cause blood insulin to rise, but then fall dramatically. So does it matter if they're simple if your blood sugar level goes back to normal quickly? The hunger cravings won't be there. Yet, complex carbs start slow and rise steadily, which can mean you'll carbs much longer.

I'm just questioning what is supposedly new nutritional principles that seem to blame it all on the obesity phenomena that's linked to carbs and supposedly not protein.



A-Unit

 

[uzio]

The amount of protein you need is simple.

Something around 1-1,5g/lb probably a bit less. Anything more will just be converted to glucose. So save your pennies

Basicly a good bodybuilder diet (when building muscle) consists:

1,5g/lb protein (jack it up to 2g/lb if you really need to, but frankly, most people will not see any difference between 1 and 2g/lb - and protein is expensive)

2,5-3,5g/lb carbs (preferably medium to low gi, altho not really important, just avoid candy and sodas.
Right after workout meal should preferably be high GI (glucose + whey shake works fine ) )

Rest from fats (good fats - that is olive oil, some omega-3 etc)

Typically you start at maintenance+500 kcal. If you don't see any gains after two weeks, jack up by 250 kcal and repeat until you are happy your growth. Otoh - if you are getting too much fat, rather then muscle, cut by 250 kcal.

Simple really

 

[suikeisuru]

I'll make this short and sweet:

2g of protein for your current target body weight (so if you weigh 150 and want to be 180, have 360-400 a day).

Eat carbs and fats (but not together!!) to satisfy hunger.

Try to avoid junk food.

That is all.

 

[A-Unit]

Re:

Trying to get 330g of protein a day is near impossible, expensive, complex, and likely to make you feel terrible.

People lose significant weight on high protein diets because protein foods are not nearly as calorie dense as carb foods.

Brown rice, bagels, potatoes, salad, fruits, etc are more dense than say, chicken, eggs, or protein shakes. Why do you think it's so easy to eat 6 small protein meals with sides of veggies? A chicken breast might be chock full of protein, and based on its size will fill you up, but not provide nearly enough calories to fulfill caloric needs.

Same with eggs. You could eat 8 eggs, get 50 of protein or so (minus the yoke), and a side of salad or veggies and be full, but all told, that's barely 500 cal. Sounds like a lot, but it really isn't.

I went to boarders checking on nutritional manuals and books on nutrition, but EVERY manual is the same! Slight variations, but EVERY one of them says get HIGH PROTEIN. Well then, every man walking around must be a greek God everywhere but New England, musn't they??

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The only interest I have in this is challenging the accepted beliefs that HIGH PROTEIN consumption leads to tremendous gains. Many pro lifters (aside from the juice they use), do eat terribly calorie dense diets during bulking phases, that often include 'junk' food. How else could they consume 5000 calories without getting full? Granted, THEY ARE bigger, but the human stomach is only so big, and trying 1 eat dozen eggs, a lb of rice and a salad isn't likely to be easily done.

Ever notice those ads of the guys who's semi-big, but kinda fat? And then all of a sudden he uses some fat burner or protein supplement and drops big weight??? Yeah, he was already big. He bulked up, added some fat, then cut, going on a higher protein diet, dropping some of the carbs, and walla, he's ripped.

The muscles can't grow if they don't have a ready supply of glucose/glycogen at their disposal during phases of working out. As we know, protein isn't stored by any amount of the body, but the bigger problem is protein, its sugar/carbs/glucose. Since that is the energy form we use to be alive day-to-day, it's consumed just be sitting here now. Moreover, if you're using ENERGY to build muscle, your body will be empty. Where will it go to replace lost energy in muscle cells?

If there's none in the body it easily breaks down protein since it's only 1g = 4 calories, much easier than 1g of fat = 9 calories. Simpler break down with protein and carbs.

If the body is chock full of carbs and water, then the protein can be used properly. And so can healthy fats. If carbs are not present in the muscle cells, and water is not sufficient (though water can be had from fruits or drinks or directly from water), then all the other nutrients don't matter. As stated, most high protein/high fat diets that restrict calorie see their loss in muscle, in water, and deflation of muscle weight because the cells are not blown out with water/carbs.

Think of how energized you are when go to the gym loaded with good food and good nutrients and energy? You can lift like crazy. Many times throughout the day we can FEEL how powerful we'd be. Yet, when some are preparing to lifting, they eat SO clean they can't max out the lifts each week and make progress to grow.

I question the protein diets because at 16/17 when I dropped 20+ lbs and got into good shape, protein helped, but I was mostly eating carbs because that's all I could bring to H.S. and stand eating. It's not like I could eat eggs in class, but teachers had no problems with me eating chex mix, cereal bars, or apples. Yet beyond that, I ate tons of protein in college and going forward. Finally, I added much more carbs to my diet and reduced the protein and have seen better gains, better energy, and better power and size.

Post workout I down Twinlab Ultra fuel (100g of carbs, much like Gatorade, but more dense). I used to do 50g of protein and 50 g of carbs. But I realized how non energized I felt and I'd be sore for days. That was until I dug down and realized it was the carbs so necessary after a workout. About 1 hour after lifting I eat again, this time with SOME protein, like a minor protein shake and more carbs, perhaps healthy cereal and skim milk or fruit.

Most will agree, tremendous protein doesn't feel good. Usually leaves you hungry, gives the sense of acid reflux or acid irritation in the stomach (protein is acidic and is why the body expends lots of urine, some say have more water, but that does not account for the loss of calcium).

I'm not contesting those who've made tremendous gains, but both you and I know, it's not the protein but the calories that are consumed that matter. And I have a problem when EVERY book, EVERY magazine and EVERY diet is roughly the same or within a few % points of each other and YET, America is obese. i don't care if that's due to Soda, Candy, or Crap, anywhere you got, protein/fat is a staple of the diet, and if it was so good, people would be in better shape, instead of 60+% of the population between 20 and 24 being obese.



A-Unit

 

[RaWBLooD]

500 g of protein........ just say no.

 

[guitaronfire411]

500 g of protein? That can't be healthy. Taking 20 g everytime I go to workout is bad enough.

 

[suikeisuru]

Originally posted by guitaronfire411
500 g of protein? That can't be healthy. Taking 20 g everytime I go to workout is bad enough.

Taken from: http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=5722

There was a recent thread on Mayhem in which someone questioned DANTE's advice to eat the protein first.
I thought I'd share it here and added some more clarification on my part why we do this.
Dante could probably write 2 books on this stuff so what I write most already know or maybe not.
Every few years I have posted it and always get a few people that benefit from it.
We DC'ers already eat proteins first but I thought I'd share why since I have eaten for function since day 1.

DC::Think for a second--If you fill your hunger with protein first what are you most likely not going to eat a huge amount of? It takes roughly 24.6-26 calories burned to digest every 100 calories of protein yet it only takes roughly 3.8 to 4.2 calories burned to digest every 100 calories of fats/carbs so are you figureing out yet why my trainees are always hot like a furnace and stay reasonably lean eating gross amounts of food?

If I can add something here to further back Dante's theories:
Eating protein first in a meal increases the effeciency of digestion and a greater overall amount of protein as an end result in from a meal. In short a greater amount of aminos make it to the blood stream. Everytime I have written about this in the past few years people always are like "WOW I learned something new today".
I call it eating for function.
The function of the digestive system.
I eat proteins first for 2 reasons-that digestive system is physiologically geared that way and it improves the effeciency of digestion and a greater overall availability of proteins/aminos from food for the body to use.
Carbohydrates are digested 30% in the mouth with the salivary enzyme amylase and of course chewing.
CARBS aren't digested in the stomach=they just sit there and slowly pass into the small intestines where the pancreatic enzymes do 70% more and complete the process.
Fats are the same way if eaten first or mixed with carbs will sit there and clog up digestion.
Proteins are primarily digested in the stomach. Therfore, eating proteins after these foods will result in a reduced amount of protein digestion-leaving some incompletely digested and unabsorbable and therefore lost.
This in turn causes the undigested protein to be pulled into the small intestine reducing the protein effeciency of your meal and contributing to the mass of your colon.
You want something worse? We are set up by traditional eating to fail.
Go out to a steak house. First thing you get is your salad-THAT is the last thing you want to eat in a meal after the steak and then the potato.
Cellulose is undigestable by the human body and will really clog up the process reducing the effeciency of digestion and your meal itself.

As mentioned previously proteins speed up the metabolic rate more than carbs and fat. Concerning basal metabolism proteins speed it up 30%, Carbs and fats 10%. The mere process of digestion and absorbtion of protein races the metabolism and will increase anabolism in an advanced athlete.

Now granted you can eat a huge meal like a Mcdonalds Combo meal mix it all up and it will get digested but it will interfere with feedings and the effeciency of the meal will be less and eventually leadto a lot of adipose tissue gain.

There are reasons we eat Protein and Fat together and protein and carbs. Insulin. Eating fat and carbs are a death warrant to bb'ers when consumed together and lays adipose tissue down as easily as Home Depot lays down cheap carpet.

I could write more especially on the types of proteins and their absorbtion-things like incomplete proteins etc.

Anyhoo..just my 2 cents. We are all here to learn from each other but Dante's methods are backed by science and 3-4 years of online "University" studies with 100's reaping the benefits-so it is good advice and gospel for most ADVANCED lifters.

PEACE.
This was a good post too in the thread:
Protein will serve you a dual role in body modification in that it is as important for body fat reduction as it is for muscular gains. In regards to body fat reduction, protein has a specific dynamic action on the metabolism which means that when you ingest protein, your metabolic rate is elevated higher and remains elevated longer than when you ingest either fats or carbohydrates. A high carb meal will only elevate your metabolism from 4 to 30 percent above normal. This small elevation will last only 2 to 5 hours. A high protein meal however will elevate your metabolism by up to 70 percent above normal and this effect can last as long as 10 to 12 hours."

 

[RaWBLooD]

uh that post explains why someone who wants to gain weight would NOT want to eat so much protein ....... so many calories wasted just to digest it..... and that much is definitely too much for growing purposes.
Ya He sure explained digestion. or maybe he had it backwards, if you eat the protein first and then the carbs, the protein being digested in the stomache, well now its spending less time there cause its going in first........ hmmm....

 

[suikeisuru]

Originally posted by RaWBLooD
uh that post explains why someone who wants to gain weight would NOT want to eat so much protein ....... so many calories wasted just to digest it..... and that much is definitely too much for growing purposes.
Ya He sure explained digestion. or maybe he had it backwards, if you eat the protein first and then the carbs, the protein being digested in the stomache, well now its spending less time there cause its going in first........ hmmm....

This is how to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. If you wnat to get big, you have to be pounding in the food left and right but this will help you eat for FUNCTION so you don't become a lard-ass while gaining muscle.

Good luck seeing nice muscle gains if you eat the standard 1-1.5gram/pound that most people seem to swear by.

 

[guitaronfire411]

Originally posted by RaWBLooD
uh that post explains why someone who wants to gain weight would NOT want to eat so much protein ....... so many calories wasted just to digest it..... and that much is definitely too much for growing purposes.
Ya He sure explained digestion. or maybe he had it backwards, if you eat the protein first and then the carbs, the protein being digested in the stomache, well now its spending less time there cause its going in first........ hmmm....

It's possible that it's just my digestive system, but eating too much protein in one go is hell on my stomach if I push myself to the limit in a workout (like I normally do). Hard to imagine someone taking 500 g in one go unless they were doing it as a profession.

 

[RaWBLooD]

Originally posted by suikeisuru
This is how to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. If you wnat to get big, you have to be pounding in the food left and right but this will help you eat for FUNCTION so you don't become a lard-ass while gaining muscle.

Good luck seeing nice muscle gains if you eat the standard 1-1.5gram/pound that most people seem to swear by.

well i wont try to change your mind, but have you actually tried keeping calories about the same and changing your protein around, and did you see large differences?

 

[RaWBLooD]

Originally posted by guitaronfire411
It's possible that it's just my digestive system, but eating too much protein in one go is hell on my stomach if I push myself to the limit in a workout (like I normally do). Hard to imagine someone taking 500 g in one go unless they were doing it as a profession.

nah the daily average bro...

 

[DonJuanMonk]

I don't understand why people are throwing out numbers like 400-500g of protein. You do know if you don't use that protein, that will become fat.

Here are the real facts:

1. Minimum amount of protein should be .50g X your weight in pounds.

2. On non-workout days you should be getting .75g X your weight in pounds.

3. On workout days you should go for 1 to 1.25g X your weight in pounds.

===

Also, try to eat a max of one can a week for tuna, there is mercury bud - if you think mercury will disappear after taking a crap think again. Mercury accumulates and yes it does go away - but only if you are accumulating it at a normal pace.

 

[A-Unit]

Recap:

[As mentioned previously proteins speed up the metabolic rate more than carbs and fat. Concerning basal metabolism proteins speed it up 30%, Carbs and fats 10%. The mere process of digestion and absorbtion of protein races the metabolism and will increase anabolism in an advanced athlete.

False. Myth.

Researchers at Arizona State University examined individuals that ate a high protein diet and compared them to another group that ate a high carb diet. What they found was that eating a high protein diet resulted in an average of 30 calories per meal being burned in digestion.

30 Calories per meal, and that's what is called THERMOGENIC? 30? Over 6 meals, that's 180 calories. Granted, if you're in a CUTTING phase, you'd like those 180 spread out, but its not quite as "THERMOGENIC" supp. manufacturers would lead you to believe.

Let's start with the FIRST ISSUE. With is more damaging, insufficient protein or insufficient carbohydrates?


If you answer carbs, you're right.


Why?


Because, the body will work to Satisfy it's sugar/glucose usage FIRST, then work on protein. As we know, 1lb of muscle burns 50 calories/day doing nothing. The brain also requires sugar to use as energy. It does not use protein. The body CAN use protein, but unless you're on a completely liquid diet or LOVE egg whites, it's not advocated, nor is it healthy, as many members can attest to the discomfort following a massive proten meal.


The average 180lb person can store 500 calories between muscular glycogen and liver glycogen as well as a few g in the brain and blood. That's it. Much more than that is burned JUST living, not to mention working out, and you also want to build muscle? Let's consider the "3 reapers" of energy.

1. Survival.

The body REQUIRES energy(sugar) to live. It CAN pull sugar via gluconeogenesis from amino acids in the body (this is what happens when too much protein is had and not enough carbs). Every gone on a Carb-Restricted diet or the Atkin's diet? How was your mental state?

2. Storage

The body stores away 500g for use during times of non-consumption (i.e. missing meals and sleeping, or being sick, etc). Muscular energy is the first and foremost, then liver. Muscular energy being used directly by muscle. Liver is a 2nd storage depot and would be used later, though it's not readily available.

**Key point. A reason some of you lose energy during workouts or don't progress is that you're consuming TOO many protein g's and not enough carb's. If you're muscles aren't full of muscular sugar when you got workout and you're not energized, do you believe you'll lift AS MUCH AS YOU possibly can, safely during each workout??

When you have tons of protein prior to a workout, the energy is not readily available, PLUS, it's a great waste of money to consume a protein shake 1 hour before lifting to have it used as energy. Is that why you bought a tub of protein, for energy to lift???**

3. Growth.

Most workouts can be consider moderate to intense in activity level. 60% is moderate and 75%+ is intense. Check your beats per minute just to know. If you're in the moderate range, you're burning fat. This is key during cardio. RUNNING hardcore, while it sounds logical that you'd burn TONS of fat, doesn't!

Fat is not what we call "quick energy" it takes time to burn. So if the body believes that it must get energy AND fast, where's it going? MUSCLE GLYCOGEN (or muscular sugar). Then where?

Protein & Fat.

The workouts we do SUCK the living daylights out of the muscles, and if you're over 45 minutes to an hour, you're into the intense category, burning muscle protein and amino acids. It's OK, post workout, say after a good 45 minutes of lifting to continue with moderate cardio, because you'll burn FAT now (stay moderate though).

Any HIGHLY intense activity requires fast energy. Fat is not a fast energy mover. Look at a long distance runner, they might be THIN, but they are not normally CUT nor muscular. That's because after they burn off the carbs, they're catabolizing their muscles to pieces.

So given that you want to GAIN muscle, and carbs are vital to energy each day, which macro nutrient is vital to gaining weight?

Carbs. Without it, protein is ineffective. With it, you only need a few more nutrients to comprise the diet and round it out.

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Genetics is the first factor limiting everyone. However, MOST people don't hit the genetic limit because they're consuming so much protein that they never really grow. From time to time they grow, you know, like when you get fed up of protein rich diets and just eat anything. Eventually the calorie overload adds some size to your depleted body. However, protein is not what we call "vital" and it can be drawn from a variety of sources, unlike what most guru's have you believe.

Sufficient carbs combined with low to moderate protein consumption will yield MORE than enough protein. Think about it, most carbs sources have a few grams of protein and some amino acids. Even the non-essential aminos can be made from OTHER sources. SO wouldn't it stand to reason if you're downing 400-800g of carbs per day, you're getting more than enough protein in your diet??

Yes I said that many carbs.

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There are reasons we eat Protein and Fat together and protein and carbs. Insulin. Eating fat and carbs are a death warrant to bb'ers when consumed together and lays adipose tissue down as easily as Home Depot lays down cheap carpet.

Poster, I'm not picking you apart, just theories in general.

MOST places you find high fats (bad ones) with high carbs (bad ones) are in PROCESSED, MAN-MADE foods. And if you find HIGH fat with HIGH carbs (avocados are like this) it's OK. It's not ok to eat lots of fat with lots carbs because most sources like that are cake, shytty ice cream, butter, some breakfast, fast food...anything UNNATURALLY made or grown.

My mom makes some potato dish. It has corn flakes in it, its breaded and has like MAYO thrown in, too. Found it in some recipe book. Needless to say, high fat, high carb, BAD BAD BAD.

Go to any grocery store and find me a source that is NATURAL containing both high fats and carbs, and likely you'll see it's ok b/c it's natural. The body can handle it. What the body cannot handle and does not handle is all that crap together. First off, b/c it doesn't do well with UNNATURAL foods (just ok so cheat a little) and secondly because that's a lot of calories!!!

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At this point it should be self-sufficient that muscle gain and fat loss are somewhat contradictory in the biological and physiological functions.

The body either stores energy or burns it. If you had a bucket, and it had a hole in it. You could fill the bucket IF you poured more water IN, than was runing out. We've all done it as kids @ the beach. Same thing with the body.

It HATES to have extra meat on its frame, and if you're ALLOWING it to get low on calories and energy and skimping on foods, you won't gain. It has SO many places to burn calories that people don't realize it.

1. Daily Maintenance.
2. Repair.
3. Growth.
4. Storage.
5. Lifting activity.
6. Extra calories for growth.

My feeling is, if people KNEW fruits, veggies, whole wheat carbs, some proteins, and the occasional cheat diet were all you needed to grow, would they buy SUPPLEMENTS???

No! Heck no. If you could eat fruit, knowing the extra cals would help you grow, why would you down a gross choco supp shake??

Most people who CLAIM to workout follow the high protein, and somewhat high fat routine, and how do they look? Are they progressing?

The guys who started the protein fad diet were steroids users, who's protein assimilation far exceeds those of naturally body builders. When you're growing and recovering QUICKER, you pack more calories in.

Bill Romanowski said of THG that it never made him grow like mad, just to ignore pain and recover quicker. Instead of waiting a week or 5 days to workout again, he could do chest again the NEXT DAY!! Most steroid users would say the same. The pain goes away, the body recuperates faster, just what most steroids do. In turn, you must EAT MORE food to grow along with the steroids. They're not without workout though.

The excessive steroids requires water, and the faster protein assimilation means more water in the cell (hence the gallon jugs). Steroids also suck up more water, so you blown out. Drop the 'roids and you lose water weight too.

Much of what's in natural bodybuilding is there because of left overs from Steroid usage and not anything that's practical. Go back to EARLY bodybuilders (i.e. pre steroids, or before they were HOT). Guys ate TONS of nuts, some liver, few eggs, not protein, tons of fruit and veggies, and bran, and wheat, etc. These guys were ripped and huge and natural. They didn't live in the gym. They were men, fathers, etc that lifted and liked it.

Now you have freaks walking around, knowing that BIG bodies = BIG pay (think WWF, WWE, sports, modeling, tv, etc) so why not risk longevity for fame, fortune, and pvssy?? You'll notice MOST supp. manufacturers are JACKED guys who DID steroids. Tell me Bill Phillips of EAS did not do 'roids??? He might not NOW to maintain, but he sure as shyt did do them. Just like every other guy.




That's my .02



A-Unit

 

[Warboss Alex]

Originally posted by suikeisuru
This is how to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. If you wnat to get big, you have to be pounding in the food left and right but this will help you eat for FUNCTION so you don't become a lard-ass while gaining muscle.

Good luck seeing nice muscle gains if you eat the standard 1-1.5gram/pound that most people seem to swear by.

Mate, Dante has tried so many times to defend his views re high protein consumption (and DC in general), but the truth is that he takes 170lbers to 240lb monsters (mostly natural too, no roids) at the same bodyfat or leaner using these methods. Science doesn't agree with him but the proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say.

Personally, I'm gonna keep on my 2g protein per lb and gain strength and size in spades, while keeping lean (I am now leaner than I've ever been, even when I used to 'cut') even though I'm eating more food that I ever have.

Damn science (and damn genetics too while we're at it), try it and see.

(Incidentally, I'm not saying that carbs are useless or anything, and I'm TOTALLY in agreement that insufficient carbs are more damaging - to the average Joe, to a bodybuilder both protein and carbs are crucial to success.)

(I'm gonna give up on here for a while and go read IntenseMuscle I reckon.)

 

[MindOverMatter]

I'll be your guinea pig.

I'm giving the 2g/lbs a shot for the next 12 months. I'm at 220 lbs now, and most of my gains have come at like 12-15 lbs of lean muscle mass a year. That's on moderate protein (1.3g/lbs), higher carb diet. Dante claims to have trained several guys to 70 lbs gains over 2 year periods, naturally. The gains are def worth a shot in my book, so I'll take it.

I've bookmarked this thread, and I'll check back in here next November.

 

[Lifeforce]

Hey Warboss.. if I said I would be interested to try that thing too... what would I need to know besides eating 2 g protein per lbs of weight?