Gip & Wyldfire,
Thanks for the clear answers. I don't know if you want to hear my opinion on it or not, but here it is for what it's worth...
Let me state at the outset that I like having Wyldfire as part of the group. I think it's cool to have some women in a group that is mostly male and is focused on male issues. Especially women who are unusual enough to have some reason, whatever it may be, for caring to participate in such a group.
It is often said that women are experts in describing the type of man they *think* they want, but these same women often end up pursuing the exact opposite type of guy than what they claimed to want.
Consequently, some fear that having a woman dispensing advice will lead guys astray and that guys should instead focus on what women DO, not what they say. Hence a compendium of tips and threads based on men's experiences recording what women actually do, as opposed to what they say.
I agree with that, but having a woman on the site dispensing the the female perspective is just a good opportunity to make the point, IMHO.
HOWEVER... (a big however here) I have found that both men and women have ways of seeing the world that are sometimes distasteful to the opposite sex.
If Gipper referred to single mothers as having "baggage" and Wyldfire got upset about the fact that he made an insensitive remark, I have news for you Wyldfire.
You only THINK that your comment is directed at Gipper, and you imagine that some other guy wouldn't be so insensitive. But that's only because other men are constantly careful about what they say in a woman's presence. The reality is that you are faulting men for characteristics typical of most males. IMO, you are perfectly entitled to do that if they bring their views to you. But when you join a male oriented group then it is silly to be trying to squelch typical male attitudes at each occurance.
That would be like stepping into a football team locker room and saying, "hey, how dare you refer to women as [whatever]."
Yes, I remember you said you don't mind putting up with men's crude language, but that is not the point.
A more precise analogy would be me sitting in on a group of women that are discussing how to meet men, and any time they share tips on how to tell if a guy is successful then I rebuke them for being "so shallow." Or ditto if they talk about avoiding short, bald men, or men who have ABC or don't have XYZ. Whatever. Whatever their female concerns might be.
Wanting a guy to be successful or a "good provider" is a common and typical female focus throughout entire whole planet. So how would it be my place to give them a hard time about it, when they get together among themselves to discuss typical female concerns?
The bottom line is, I value what you bring to the group, but IMHO the onus is on *you* to "let things go" when guys say "guy things". And that even includes a certain amount of ribbing directed at you, simply because you're here and thus making yourself an easy target. Ribbing someone in a group who makes himself (or herself) and easy target IS a typical guy thing!
Another reason the guys take potshots at you is because they DON'T want to feel like they have to walk on eggshells and watch what they say just because there's a woman around. They get enough of that all day at work or at school or wherever. This group is their chance to freely say guy things, and not worry about it. So some of the attacks at you (or at women in general) are their way of reaffirming to themselves that they are in a safe environment where they don't have to worry about what they say. Then you slap back and surprise, they discover the coast isn't clear. IMHO, the best attitude for any woman to take in a pre-dominantly male group is the same as the attitude a girl learns to take when she's growing up around a bunch of older brothers. It's the attitude of being like a kid sister who is used to being teased and she has learned to laugh it off, rather than feeling a need to fight back over every remark.
(Consider the possibility that if you were in an abusive relationship and spent years taking the abuse, then you may now have a tendency to overcompensate and now find it difficult to seemingly "sit by and take it" when remarks are directed your way that feel vaguely "abusive".)
I hope I haven't been insensitive or hurt your feelings by pointing this out.
DeepBlue
Thanks for the clear answers. I don't know if you want to hear my opinion on it or not, but here it is for what it's worth...
Let me state at the outset that I like having Wyldfire as part of the group. I think it's cool to have some women in a group that is mostly male and is focused on male issues. Especially women who are unusual enough to have some reason, whatever it may be, for caring to participate in such a group.
It is often said that women are experts in describing the type of man they *think* they want, but these same women often end up pursuing the exact opposite type of guy than what they claimed to want.
Consequently, some fear that having a woman dispensing advice will lead guys astray and that guys should instead focus on what women DO, not what they say. Hence a compendium of tips and threads based on men's experiences recording what women actually do, as opposed to what they say.
I agree with that, but having a woman on the site dispensing the the female perspective is just a good opportunity to make the point, IMHO.
HOWEVER... (a big however here) I have found that both men and women have ways of seeing the world that are sometimes distasteful to the opposite sex.
If Gipper referred to single mothers as having "baggage" and Wyldfire got upset about the fact that he made an insensitive remark, I have news for you Wyldfire.
You only THINK that your comment is directed at Gipper, and you imagine that some other guy wouldn't be so insensitive. But that's only because other men are constantly careful about what they say in a woman's presence. The reality is that you are faulting men for characteristics typical of most males. IMO, you are perfectly entitled to do that if they bring their views to you. But when you join a male oriented group then it is silly to be trying to squelch typical male attitudes at each occurance.
That would be like stepping into a football team locker room and saying, "hey, how dare you refer to women as [whatever]."
Yes, I remember you said you don't mind putting up with men's crude language, but that is not the point.
A more precise analogy would be me sitting in on a group of women that are discussing how to meet men, and any time they share tips on how to tell if a guy is successful then I rebuke them for being "so shallow." Or ditto if they talk about avoiding short, bald men, or men who have ABC or don't have XYZ. Whatever. Whatever their female concerns might be.
Wanting a guy to be successful or a "good provider" is a common and typical female focus throughout entire whole planet. So how would it be my place to give them a hard time about it, when they get together among themselves to discuss typical female concerns?
The bottom line is, I value what you bring to the group, but IMHO the onus is on *you* to "let things go" when guys say "guy things". And that even includes a certain amount of ribbing directed at you, simply because you're here and thus making yourself an easy target. Ribbing someone in a group who makes himself (or herself) and easy target IS a typical guy thing!
Another reason the guys take potshots at you is because they DON'T want to feel like they have to walk on eggshells and watch what they say just because there's a woman around. They get enough of that all day at work or at school or wherever. This group is their chance to freely say guy things, and not worry about it. So some of the attacks at you (or at women in general) are their way of reaffirming to themselves that they are in a safe environment where they don't have to worry about what they say. Then you slap back and surprise, they discover the coast isn't clear. IMHO, the best attitude for any woman to take in a pre-dominantly male group is the same as the attitude a girl learns to take when she's growing up around a bunch of older brothers. It's the attitude of being like a kid sister who is used to being teased and she has learned to laugh it off, rather than feeling a need to fight back over every remark.
(Consider the possibility that if you were in an abusive relationship and spent years taking the abuse, then you may now have a tendency to overcompensate and now find it difficult to seemingly "sit by and take it" when remarks are directed your way that feel vaguely "abusive".)
I hope I haven't been insensitive or hurt your feelings by pointing this out.
DeepBlue
