Here's why "DHV" and "Negs" lower your value, not raise it.

[xdreamz]

the mix up is in the term "DHV" there obviously is confusion in what it is probably because nobody here understands it completely. i remember even coming across the letters and looking it up myself getting something totally vague, only through some more added experience in social situations do i understand it more.

everybody has high value, an owner of a club can have low value to a person looking to buy a car, so displaying a high value is not necessarily anything specific but rather what you show to the other person that adds more of a connection, a relevence to the persons specific needs. women need to feel in order for you to get through to them.

Derek mentions here that he didn't brag about a car, which is in fact a DHV because only a non-confident self perceived low value person would brag about his material possessions. now if it were to be his new desktop computer, unless she liked computers it wouldn't have any value to her at all... she felt attracted because you didn't brag about your nice car. that is something high value to a woman because it comes from the type of mindset of what kind of man she should feel for.

the last part is true, it is all from your mindset that you are already high value. but unfortunately many people, especially the more approached and more experienced ones are, are too busy and too selfish to realize this so they perceive you as a person of little or no importance, after all they just met you, so you show conversate and show your personality (value) to others because other people are high value too. you being non desperate should also look for things in other people that naturally draw you to him or her.

so basically, showing your value to others does not mean you perceive yourself as low value.

 

[ketostix]

My point in my previous post is that genuine high value guys do not need to "DHV" they naturally do so by just being themselves and it is reflected in their persona and not by using gimmicks or telling stories.

Did anyone see the final episode of "The Pickup Artist" and how these guys were talking about their limo, having a pool party, access to the VIP lounge etc...?

Instead of telling a girl you are high value, let her find out on her own that you are high value as it will have much more impact.

It's like the example I used earlier: I met a girl, talked with her for several hours on the phone before our first date and when I picked her up, it was in my (at the time) brand new C5 (5th generation) Corvette Convertible.

She asked me why I didn't tell her about my cool car like most other guys would do, and I just told her that I didn't think she was the type of girl that was impressed by material things so I didn't bother to mention it.

Fact is, I purposely didn't mention my new convertible because picking her up in it without her knowing I even had such a car had much more of an impact and "DHV"

Letting a girl discover that you are high-value has much more impact and is far more effective then telling her you are high-value, or "DHV"

And like I said earlier, take a high-value guy and put him in an environment where nobody knows him, and I guarantee you that he will give off a "high-value" vibe without saying what makes him high-value.

It is reflected in the persons persona and the way they walk, talk, and interact with others.

You can tell who is high-value and who is not within a minute in most cases.

Next time you go out to a bar, lounge, club whatever, try it yourself - you'll be able to tell who is high-value just by observing the way they interact with others and the way they carry themselves.

Do you really think that people who genuinely possess high-value need to demonstrate it?

Hell no.

You make some good and valid points (not all of them though). The problem is you spend too much time criticising an Indirect method, MM in this case, and praising basically the Direct method. It's almost like your a direct method guru trying to promote your method. I don't believe this is the case, you just have conviction in the Direct method approach.

Instead you should be explaining more how guys can make a Direct method work, and how to have intrinsic value as opposed to "artificial" value which you criticise against. How is one supposed to do that practically? Just convince himself he's high value and women will believe it? Become rich? Just approach a girl boldly and directly and she'll automatically think you have value and be attracted to you?

The thing is there's a lot of information and evidence supporting Indirect method and even the MM. There's many reasons supporting being indirect, it's challenge, it's being a mystery, it doesn't set off her defense, etc. There's very little evidence that many guys can get the girls attraction from approaching her directly. You really are depending on your looks when you go direct from the get go. And don't say it's because the guys aren't doing it just "right". you can make that argument with any method.

I'm taking you at your word that direct works for you. But do see where I'm going? You're not really providing any proof or concrete advice for how to do it the way you suggest.

I've read up on the direct forums, and let me tell you those guys were some of the biggest theorist and KJs of all, worse than here or any indirect forum. I read Mode One and saw holes in his ideas. Lots of guys have tried Direct and got ASD or we found it just validates her and puts her on a pedistal. But we got better results with Indirect. You can't just say we did direct "wrong", yet somehow we did indirect "right". That doesn't makes sense.

 

[xdreamz]

there are definately times when dhv and negs come off as tryhard. definately agree with that. what you want to do is internalize the mindset so you can do it off the top

what is direct method? can somebody give me a summary?

 

[zerocelcius]

Semantics
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Semantics
Semantics
Semantics

 

[Derek Flint]

My point is, the title of this is way off base with what you are saying.

DHV's and Negs don't lower your value unless you're bad at them.

The fact that someone even has the mindset of having or wanting or needing to "DHV" or "Neg" does in fact display low value and does lower one's value.

Maybe I haven't explained it in the most eloquent and clearly understood way, but many people "get it" as to why.

Mystery himself, on video, shows a hand drawn bar graph. Two of them, and one represents a guy and the other represents a girl.

The first bar graph shows the guy lower than the girl, then when he writes "DHV" to the guys bar graph and "Negs" to the girls bar graph, he changes the guys bar graph to being higher than that of the girl.

That presupposes and sub communicates that the guy has lower value than the girl, and that he must raise his value with "DHV" and lower her value with "Negs"

That is saying that the guy in the example has lower value than the girl, and that the guy must "DHV" himself and "Neg" the girl in order to "flip the script"

Where as myself and others who "get it" come from the position and the mindset that I/we are already of higher value than the girl, and don't need to "DHV" to raise our bar graph (value) and to lower her bar graph (Negs)

I will try to find the vid on uTube and grab a screen shot and link or post it.

Some here have denied that Mystery has done this, or that he says that is the purpose of "negs" and "dhv" but I have seen it, on video.

Another analogy: Do you think in his prime that Bruce Lee went around bragging or even telling people about how skilled he was in Martial Arts, and/or how he can kick pretty much anyone's azz?

Of course not. Even if he wasn't famous, he didn't need to because he knew, and that was enough for him and he didn't need validation from others.

"DHV" is partially validation-seeking behavior and "Negging" someone is basically saying that she has more value than you do, so you must lower her value and raise your own just to be on her level or higher.

That whole mindset reeks of insecurity and has low value written all over it.

True high value guys do not need to engage in such shenanigans and gimmicks to demonstrate their value or prove that they are higher value than their "target" because they sub communicate high value without having to "Neg" or "DHV" naturally.

I don't know how much more clearly I can explain it.

People either get it or they don't.

As for the positives of the MM, I think that the M3 model is valid, as are a few other things about MM, but not much else.

 

[Derek Flint]

I'm not really pushing "Direct Method" here, but I do believe it to be superior to anything else I've encountered in the 10+ years I've spent in the "community"

But if someone asks, and truly wants to do the work to make permenant, real and long-lasting positive changes, then I will point them in the right direction if they show a true desire to make those changes to real self-improvement.

To becoming a "DJ" and not a "PUA"

Anyone here know or remember the difference?

Now, do I think "direct method" is the best "method"?

Yes, because it is based more on "change work" and "Inner game" than these external gimmicks and openers and using a template or model.

And it's not really even a "Method" it's a lifestyle change that will make a positive impact in all aspects of your life, because it involves many things, among them, not making any excuses, taking responsibility for yourself, your actions and for where you are in your life, along with your successes as well as your failures.

I do not get anything out of recommending "direct method" financially or otherwise, nor does anyone I know, so I'm not shilling for anyone.

One size does not fit all, nor do external gimmicks and games do much for inner game, nor do they change a person permanently, and for the better.

The reason I have been singling out Mystery is because he is the hot topic right now, and because many guys here see him as some kind of PU God, and not who and what he really is.

If you read Style's book, you know that Mystery is an insecure guy, and goes from one girl to another, mostly because they leave him for someone else when they realize that MM is style over substance, and that deep down, Mystery is not much more than a fancy AFC with just a lot of bells and whistles and gaudy clothing to distract away from his true AFC self.

Don't believe me? Read Style's book and read how Mystery had to basically be admitted to the Psych ward after his girl dumped him, and how he went into a deep depression spiral.

And how that is somewhat typical of his behavior.

Personally, I have met Mystery and I think he is a cool dude and I like him.

The irony is that I don't think he has to even engage in all these tricks and gimmicks, but he holds on to them, like a child holding onto a security blanket or whatever it is that makes him feel safe and secure.

Mystery can easily take off the "Training wheels" but is afraid to do so.
Instead, he hides behind this persona named "Mystery" and uses these gimmicks and tricks and techniques that he no longer needs, yet holds onto.

I'm not bashing Mystery, it's his method I don't care much for.

Deep down, Mystery is an insecure guy who hides behind a made up persona and his "method" which is designed to hide his insecurities and his weaknesses.

Like I said, I personally like Mystery, it's just his methods I don't like.

It's kind of sad, because the method that made him is also the method that is keeping him from growing and developing.

I mean, the guy is now 35 years old and wears black nail polish, a fuzzy top hat, "Peacocks" which has "insecure" written all over it.

I can see some young dude in his 20's and not knowing any better, but a guy pushing 40 and dressing and acting like that is emotionally and mentally immature.

 

[ketostix]

But you're just repeating the same point basically and totally ignoring others' points that counter it. The counterpoint that when using DHVs you don't have to believe you're lower value and the girl is higher value, you can see that she thinks that and you think the opposite so you communicate that to her with a DHV.

You never explain what you believe is being a high value guy in the sense that the girl would notice it and believe you're high value. You just seem to say, "Be a high value guy", "believe you're a high value guy and the girl will automatically and instantly believe it too". It's just a belief system. When you say it's ALL about just mindset that's almost like religion, "believe in X ,and vola you're saved".


Really, what does it matter if the girl thinks she's higher value or you think you're higher value? What matters is you get what you want from her.


You totally ignored my post that had some good questions about the short comings of Direct game. I got to tell you, most hook ups of my own and over 90% of hook ups of others that I know of didn't come from direct. I honestly don't know of any that happened from Direct game.

You criticise Indirect and MM but don't specifically address criticism of Direct, or explain how you're going to have value besides convincing yourself you do. At least Indirect guys offer an explaination how you could do this. What you're saying is akin to, "I'm a natural, I have value so I can get any girl I want."

 

[Derek Flint]

I'm not saying anything like "I'm a natural, I have value so I can get any girl I want"

Where you got that, I don't know.

I don't know how much more I have to say to make myself clear - high value doesn't have to advertise that they are high value. Their value "sells" itself, without any "advertising"

Nor does a high-value guy need to "neg" others to tear their value down.

I don't claim to be some super high-value guy, what I'm saying is that I have decided to work on becoming high-value instead of "demonstrating" high-value, and "negging" to lower girls value.

Raise your value with the way you live your life, with your actions, with the way you conduct yourself, not with stories and gimmicks and BS

Being above all the BS of "Negging" is one way to be high-value, as people of high-value do not feel the need to bring others down in order to either feel better about themselves, or to bring that person down to their level, as Mystery himself states is the reason for "Negging"

Again, I will try to find the vid on uTube and link to it or grab a screen shot.

I don't know how much more clear I can make myself.

There are many more analogies I can make than I already have, but like I said, take a high-value guy, someone of true high-value and put him in an environment where nobody knows him, and within moments, he will "stand out" from the crowd, just by the way he carries himself, by his persona, by the way he interacts with others.

Not by his "DHV" stories about how he levitated over Niagara Falls, or the story about the stripper he dated, or any of that other crap that only impresses young, immature, impressionable girls who are gullible and are insecure and want to attach themselves to a high-value guy so their "social value" will rise by osmosis.

True high-value speaks loud and clear, without saying a word.

 

[zerocelcius]

Semantics
Semantics
Semantics
Semantics
Semantics
Semantics
Semantics
Semantics
Semantics

You guys are so caught up on Semantics it isn't even funny.

Derek Flint is saying if you have High Value than you don't need to DHV.

But what he means is with High Value you don't have to claim to have High Value.

But DHV doesn't just mean tell them or say you have DHV.

So if you have High Value than you are indeed DHVing. But not every girl is going to pick up on that. Until you pull up in that fancy car.

See.... Semantics.

The reason Mystery says to verbally DHV is he has to assume the people buying his books range from the top of social class' to the bottom. If you talked to him in person and he got the chance to see you in person, I am sure he would adapt that accordingly.

BUT for the book he had to make it consumer friendly. That means help even the biggest Looser.

Trust me it is all semantics and assumptions that is the cause of this kind of discussion.

Don't take it all so literally, adapt, and overcome!

So you are all saying the same thing.

 

[ketostix]

The reason it's not clear is because you focus on being a "true high-value guy"but you don't give any definition of value other than don't neg or DHV, and that it's a belief system.

You also repeat the (claim) that if a truely high value guy walked into a room everyone would know it and respond to it. What is a truely high value guy? A rich, good looking one? I disagree he would automatically attract every girl in the first place, but what do you think he say and do if not ever DHV or "neg"?

I agree you don't always have to DHV or neg. I don't really think negs work.

Could I suggest something, let's forget about the MM, DHV, negs, and even value. Those are all part of the Indirect method but aren't the only way to game indirect.

No one is going to argue that you shouldn't develop real value. But this should be about things you should say and do and things to avoid to attract girls.

There's the theory of being Indirect and implicit. Then there's the theory of being Direct and explict. Some of the Indirect theories and understanding that I have I can claim as my own. There's a lot of evidence that being Direct doesn't work, little evidence that it does. While there's evidence that indirect methods work. You seem to ascribe to the direct method. At it's extreme direct guys throw all PU knowlege out the window and simplify it to basically, approach the girl and "I like you and want to get to know you". What else do you have when you throw everything away?

If it were all that simple no one would've developed Indirect methods in the first place. Like most direct guys, you don't seem to want to address the shortcomings and criticism of Direct. I'm not defending MM but there's other ways of doing it. You can be "indirect" many ways without the MM. You can be slightly indirect and switch direct, etc. I'm not going to go into all my ideas about here. But for now I've sen guys use MM and it didn't work, they switched to Direct and it didn't work and what they found worked best was the middle ground. You just seem to be on the extreme end.

 

[ketostix]

You guys are so caught up on Semantics it isn't even funny.

Derek Flint is saying if you have High Value than you don't need to DHV.

But what he means is with High Value you don't have to claim to have High Value.

But DHV doesn't just mean tell them or say you have DHV.

So if you have High Value than you are indeed DHVing. But not every girl is going to pick up on that. Until you pull up in that fancy car.

See.... Semantics.

The reason Mystery says to verbally DHV is he has to assume the people buying his books range from the top of social class' to the bottom. If you talked to him in person and he got the chance to see you in person, I am sure he would adapt that accordingly.

BUT for the book he had to make it consumer friendly. That means help even the biggest Looser.

Trust me it is all semantics and assumptions that is the cause of this kind of discussion.

Don't take it all so literally, adapt, and overcome!

So you are all saying the same thing.

I agree with that. It's an intelligent conclusion. But I'm not sure that's what Mystery says. So you're kind of explaining things better than he did and even putting words in his mouth and defending MM maybe lol. Derek Flint doesn't seem to believe it either, that DHVing verbally and being DHV are semantics. One thing that isn't answered is if you're not a high value guy, how are you going to become one?

It's also kind of like a good looking guy is high value and it would be redudant even arrogant for him to DHV verbally. So you always have to calibrate to what works for you. Also I think it's easier for someone to DHV verbally than to figure out how to do it nonverbally.Especially without becoming obsessed with your body language :nervous:

 

[xdreamz]

being direct is being indirect as well you use truth to get what you want.

 

[ChocolateVanilla]

The reason it's not clear is because you focus on being a "true high-value guy"but you don't give any definition of value other than don't neg or DHV, and that it's a belief system.

You also repeat the (claim) that if a truely high value guy walked into a room everyone would know it and respond to it. What is a truely high value guy? A rich, good looking one? I disagree he would automatically attract every girl in the first place, but what do you think he say and do if not ever DHV or "neg"?

I agree you don't always have to DHV or neg. I don't really think negs work.

Could I suggest something, let's forget about the MM, DHV, negs, and even value. Those are all part of the Indirect method but aren't the only way to game indirect.

No one is going to argue that you shouldn't develop real value. But this should be about things you should say and do and things to avoid to attract girls.

There's the theory of being Indirect and implicit. Then there's the theory of being Direct and explict. Some of the Indirect theories and understanding that I have I can claim as my own. There's a lot of evidence that being Direct doesn't work, little evidence that it does. While there's evidence that indirect methods work. You seem to ascribe to the direct method. At it's extreme direct guys throw all PU knowlege out the window and simplify it to basically, approach the girl and "I like you and want to get to know you". What else do you have when you throw everything away?

If it were all that simple no one would've developed Indirect methods in the first place. Like most direct guys, you don't seem to want to address the shortcomings and criticism of Direct. I'm not defending MM but there's other ways of doing it. You can be "indirect" many ways without the MM. You can be slightly indirect and switch direct, etc. I'm not going to go into all my ideas about here. But for now I've sen guys use MM and it didn't work, they switched to Direct and it didn't work and what they found worked best was the middle ground. You just seem to be on the extreme end.

There's a lot of evidence that direct doesn't work and a lot that indirect works? You do realize that anecdotal "evidence" means nothing right? Put up facts and numbers and then you might convince me.

 

[ketostix]

There's a lot of evidence that direct doesn't work and a lot that indirect works? You do realize that anecdotal "evidence" means nothing right? Put up facts and numbers and then you might convince me.

What kind of statement is that? "Anecdotal evidence" this isn't a scientific experiment or mathematical equations. In pick up all we have is trends. If a person goes out a lot and tries many different approaches on many girls and sees a trend of what works and what doesn't, that's the evidence and facts.

You ever heard of Feild reports and lay reports? There's literally thousands of them out there you can read, and almost all of them that I've seen show the person running indirect game, for example I did XYZ and got this results, a lay a number etc. Where are the Direct method FR where they've gotten lays. All I've seen from the Direct reports is basically, "I told the girl you're beautiful, I want to get to know you". Girl: "That's nice". But no hookups. Direct people need to show their facts and numbers if anything.

 

[xdreamz]

what the **** is semantics somebody get a geek to look that up. lets just say everybody has their own style

 

[ChocolateVanilla]

What kind of statement is that? "Anecdotal evidence" this isn't a scientific experiment or mathematical equations. In pick up all we have is trends. If a person goes out a lot and tries many different approaches on many girls and sees a trend of what works and what doesn't, that's the evidence and facts.

You ever heard of Feild reports and lay reports? There's literally thousands of them out there you can read, and almost all of them that I've seen show the person running indirect game, for example I did XYZ and got this results, a lay a number etc. Where are the Direct method FR where they've gotten lays. All I've seen from the Direct reports is basically, "I told the girl you're beautiful, I want to get to know you". Girl: "That's nice". But no hookups. Direct people need to show their facts and numbers if anything.

I'm just pointing out the flaw in your statement. You want evidence but yet don't show evidence of your own. I'm sure that guy can point out numerous field reports where his approach did work. Asking for evidence without providing evidence of your own as if your evidence magically existed and everyone else's didn't doesn't prove anything to me. You can keep saying "I got evidence, you don't", but it's not convincing. You can point to numerous field reports and he'll probably point to numerous field reports, that doesn't mean anything.

 

[xdreamz]

and yes if a high value person were to confront some people far away detatched place he would have to show some value. imagine if he would just all the sudden start telling them what to do where to hunt, the people would just want to kill him.

 

[xdreamz]

you guys have some great ideas, i think its pretty much settled at this point there is no more argument needed. if you were to assume that you were already high value when walking in and acting that way you would have to be careful... people will want you to die.

you have to show interest when needed, and you have to let other people understand you when needed as well.

 

[ketostix]

I'm just pointing out the flaw in your statement.

As I explain there is no flaw.


You want evidence but yet don't show evidence of your own.

"If a person goes out a lot and tries many different approaches on many girls and sees a trend of what works and what doesn't, that's the evidence and facts. and "There's literally thousands of FR out there you can read, and almost all of them that I've seen show the person running indirect game".
There's your evidence. What more do you expect than that?

I'm sure that guy can point out numerous field reports where his approach did work.
You're sure? I'm not sure. What makes you so sure? I'm not even asking him for his FR. I'm asking him or anyone else to point out these numerous FR showing Direct worked.

Asking for evidence without providing evidence of your own as if your evidence magically existed and everyone else's didn't doesn't prove anything to me.

Again, this is repetition, the indirect FR are all out there for anyone to read.

You can keep saying "I got evidence, you don't", but it's not convincing.

It's not convincing if you stuff cotton in your ears and cover your eyes maybe.

You can point to numerous field reports

Yes I can, there are some on here, A boatload of them on ASF and on various other seduction forums.

and he'll probably point to numerous field reports,

He or anyone else will? What makes you so sure? Well I'd like see the numerous FR of direct leading to hook ups

that doesn't mean anything.

I think FR and many other people's experience in pick up mean something. What more do you want, video tape of everyone's PU including in the bedroom so you can verify they actually hooked up? You probably would still say it doesn't mean "anything".

 

[Derek Flint]

OK, you know how you can take two very attractive, beautiful girls, but one has "sex appeal" while the other might not, or might not have as much?

They can even be identical twins, but one might give off that "sexy" vibe, without really trying or doing anything extra or special.

And I think we've all met girls who weren't all that attractive, but we're "sexy" and we couldn't quite describe why, we just knew that they were, that they just had that "something" about them.

That is what I'm trying to get at, that high-value guys just give off that certain "vibe" without having to say or do anything special, and certainly without having to "Demonstrate" that high value.

You either have it, or you don't. And trying to demonstrate that you have it only makes it appear that you don't, and that you are overcompensating.

Again, I'm not the most eloquent at explaining this, but I have listed several analogies and hopefully, people can understand what I'm trying to explain.

But by becoming a Man of high value by working on your internals as opposed to creating the illusion of high-value takes more work and effort, but it is far more genuine and eliminates the need to "DHV" because people will know you are high-value without having to "demonstrate" your value.

You either have high-value or you don't. Trying to create the illusion of having it when you don't will only make that person look like a try-hard and look foolish.

Bottom line is, instead of learning tricks and gimmicks to give the illusion that you have value, and, lowering your targets value with "Negs", instead genuinely raise your value so you don't have to use gimmicks and illusions to give the appearance that your value is high while at the same time lowering others value to your own level or lower.

Become high-value, don't try to trick people into believing you are high-value, because eventually, they will realize that it's all style over substance.