Here's why "DHV" and "Negs" lower your value, not raise it.

[Derek Flint]

Found this article online.

I won't source it as the author is selling a line of seduction products, so I want the article to stand on it's own merits, without a sales pitch attached.

You can always google it if you like, but I won't include the URL

The article makes total sense and more eloquently states what I've been trying to get across:

Are you still trying to DHV??

If you are someone well indoctrinated in reading "seduction community"
advice, chances are you have probably read about the concept of the
DHV and may have been obsessing about trying to constantly build your
value in front of a woman. (Until Now, of course!)

What is a "DHV?"
If you don't know what it is, you're going to come across it sooner
or later so it might be best to keep what I am about to tell you in
the back of your mind.

DHV stands for "Demonstrating Higher Value." If you have read Neil
Strauss' book, "The Game" then chances are extremely likely that
you have across such silly acronyms a multitude of times already.

The belief system is that you must approach people with the mindset
of immediately demonstrating higher value. Otherwise, she'll just
think of you as the next guy in line. If you don't conduct DHVs,
then you are just another Joe Blow from around the block. Thus,
whenever you approach a woman to initiate a conversation,
the first thing you must attempt to do is, "Demonstrate higher value."

This is the wrong frame to possess.

Obviously, every quality a person possesses has some perceived value
attached to it. I could write a lengthy list but here are a few
points to illustrate what I mean.

*Good looks have some value,
*A nice physique has some value,
*Wit and sense of humor have value,
*Artistic ability has value
*Being a great story teller has value,
*Being an interesting, well-traveled person has value
*A nice house on the beach has value.

All of the above help to distinguish someone in some manner.
You may possess some of these traits or you can choose to learn
and internalize some of them such as storytelling, for example.
There are many valuable qualities a person can possess, but it
makes for a miserable existence to perceive everything through a
point system of value.

You've probably all read at some point that attraction is not based
on logic, but rather on emotion. No woman ever takes a scorecard
and adds value points to it. (If she does, that's the type you want
to avoid at all costs anyway!)
Is there something wrong with distinguishing yourself? Of course not!

If you're a funny, smart, interesting, outgoing person, naturally
you're going to present some value. So what am I talking about then?

The issue arises when a man approaches each interaction obsessing
about demonstrating his value. If he has to think about it, it
probably means he doesn't believe he has a lot of it.

When you consciously decide to build and demonstrate "Higher" value
in front of a woman every single time, you automatically assume that
you have less value to begin with. There can be no other assumption.
If you must build you value, then by default, you essentially
believe that you have less value. This is the only possibility.

Similarly, if you feel that you must put down a woman every time you
meet one in order to lower her value, what are you assuming?
You assume that she is better than you. You assume that you she is
above you. You assume that you are lower and less than she is,
and now you must tear her down to your level of misery.

That is an insecure way of thinking.

As I mentioned before, the problem is not the issue of presenting
value. It lies in the fact of men approaching with the mindset and
belief that "THEY MUST SHOW Higher Value, and they must lower her
value." I meet certain guys and the issue of approaching women pops
up. They try to devise complex strategies in order to approach a
woman as though they were infiltrating Fort Knox.

The interesting part is that regardless of who she is as a person,
their first thought is, "I must go in, demonstrate higher value,
and tear her down and lower her." It doesn't take a rocket scientist
to see that this is an insecure way of thinking.

What is the alternative to being obsessed with building value?

ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE VALUE.

Ultimately, most of this game is inner game. (Assuming that a guy is
socially normal and can carry a decent conversation.!!) At least
80% of this game is inner-game, in my estimation. Sure, the beginner
can benefit from some basic structure, approach ideas, how to conduct
himself, and how to develop his calibration skills......
but that can be taught to someone in a relatively short period of time.

Being witty, a great conversationalist, an interesting storyteller
and so forth can all help distinguish a person. That is one way of
demonstrating higher value than the people around you. So, what's
the difference?

***The difference is not having to THINK about doing it.
It's very subtle, but it's an important distinction.***

Sometimes, beginners start out with DHV concepts simply because they
really don't know what else to say or how to properly tease a girl and
have fun. If that's your current situation, that's OK, but please
keep the long term goal in mind. That is: The ultimate success comes
when you actually,

***BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE VALUE***

Do yourself a favor:

Please take a moment and briefly think about all the men who you've
ever known who were successful with women. This may have been in
high school, college, or it may be guys you know right now.

These may have been guys you disliked, were envious of, or maybe
admired because they seemed to always have attractive women
around them. Perhaps you have had friends with such similar
qualities. Some of these guys may be friends of yours right now.

If you think back to one of the common threads amongst these men,
you may notice that they never tried to impress people or seek
their approval. You may notice a commonality that these guys
all had some attitude, that to some extent they didn't really
give a damn to try and prove themselves to you or others around.

Ideally, you can open the conversation with almost ANYTHING.
Believing you have value versus thinking you must build it shows
itself through the subtext, not through the text.

What we are talking about in essence are two opposing mindsets:

***A mindset of "Trying to Impress"
versus
***A Mindset of "Not feeling the need to impress others around you.""***

This is a key shift in thinking that leads to a monumental
change in behavior.

The inner-game part can take years. You end up going wherever your
focus is, so it's better to focus on building your own frame instead
of how to socially manipulate others. You'll be a lot happier person
as a result of it.

Focusing on building value in every interaction is certainly one
way of doing this, but then again, so is eating out of a garbage
dump. It just may not be the way that will lead to long term
benefits. There are better ways.

In my estimation, if any person constantly feels that he has to
conduct a "DHV" upon meeting a new person (male or female), he is
setting himself up for misery. You are assuming that you don't have
enough value as a person. Stop thinking along those lines.

Stop carrying that frame and perspective.
Focus on being a person who can convey his personality, knows what
he wants, and who does not need to impress others, and nor does he
to insult others to build his value.

You want a DHV? Here is one: Your DHV is being a cool guy who is
comfortable with who he is. That has value, because it's so damn rare.

Lastly, If you cannot let this model go, if you must hold on to this
model because you have invested so much stock in it, then think
about this way: "Your ultimate DHV in life will be..........
NOT thinking about having to DHV."

 

[Dongfu]

Alot of us have been saying this stuff around here. The MM is obviously a system for insecure PUA trainees. But it is for people who may not have much value. So, just as I criticized sarging, DHV is another tool with a purpose that must ultimately be dropped.

 

[Derek Flint]

Alot of us have been saying this stuff around here. The MM is obviously a system for insecure PUA trainees. But it is for people who may not have much value. So, just as I criticized sarging, DHV is another tool with a purpose that must ultimately be dropped.

Obviously, this post was directed at "them" and not "us" - the guys who "get it" and have freed themselves from "the community" and the brainwashing that goes with it.

 

[danielzxc]

This article contains logical gaps large enough to drive a truck through. You did mention the author was a vendor, so it's understandable that he's not particularly interested in logical consistency, merely in differentiating his offering in order to better sell it.

 

[Derek Flint]

This article contains logical gaps large enough to drive a truck through. You did mention the author was a vendor, so it's understandable that he's not particularly interested in logical consistency, merely in differentiating his offering in order to better sell it.

So break it down then.

Even Mystery himself, on vidoe, has said that "Negs" are for lowering your targets value, while "DHV" is to raise your value.

In the video, Mystery even shows 2 bar graphs - one of "you" and one of "her" the bar graph of "you" is lower than the bar graph of "her" and the purpose of DHV and negs is to raise your value while lowering hers so that your value rises above hers.

This attitude is poison, as it assumes you have lower value and she has higher value than you, and that you must use these tactics to give the perception that your value is higher than hers.

Remember, Mystery is an illusionist first and foremost.

I would like to hear your opinion on why this article has so many logical gaps.

Like I said, break it down for us.

 

[Dongfu]

Obviously, this post was directed at "them" and not "us" - the guys who "get it" and have freed themselves from "the community" and the brainwashing that goes with it.

:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

 

[Dongfu]

So break it down then.

Even Mystery himself, on vidoe, has said that "Negs" are for lowering your targets value, while "DHV" is to raise your value.

In the video, Mystery even shows 2 bar graphs - one of "you" and one of "her" the bar graph of "you" is lower than the bar graph of "her" and the purpose of DHV and negs is to raise your value while lowering hers so that your value rises above hers.

This attitude is poison, as it assumes you have lower value and she has higher value than you, and that you must use these tactics to give the perception that your value is higher than hers.

Remember, Mystery is an illusionist first and foremost.

I would like to hear your opinion on why this article has so many logical gaps.

Like I said, break it down for us.

I second the motion. Broad statements must be accompanied with examples.

And will the two previous posters add age to there display info. I just made a post about it, and I've decided not to take advice too seriosly from posters of an unknown age. Just a BS technicality, but really, I dont generally listen to a teenager in complicated matters.

All testimony before the court must be verifiable.

 

[ketostix]

Well one hole in it is, You don't have to believe she has higher value and you have lower value. You can perhaps tell that she BELIEVES she has higher value and you have lower value, but you believe the opposite. So DHving yourself and DLVing her is away to communicate what you believe and a way of controlling her frame.

 

[Dongfu]

Well one hole in it is, You don't have to believe she has higher value and you have lower value. You can perhaps tell that she BELIEVES she has higher value and you have lower value, but you believe the opposite. So DHving yourself and DLVing her is away to communicate what you believe and a way of controlling her frame.

Okay good start, but this usually leads to a stale mate, or a struggle to DHV eachother. One either has to finally submit, or it just gets nastier.

BTW, how old are you?

 

[Last Man Standing]

I always look for whether a woman has any value to me? Never considered my value to her - it is her prerogative to do so!

 

[ketostix]

I don't want list my age although I do agree with you it can matter. I'm a young looking 34 that mostly games college aged girls.

I wasn't claiming that DHV's and negs work or don't, I'm just giving one argument against the reasoning the article gave for claiming they do not work.

 

[danielzxc]

Firstly, just because Mystery, or any other "guru", said something doesn't autmatically disqualify it (as you think) -- nor does it automatically validate it (as many/most others seem to think) -- so simply pointing out that "even Mystery says.." is not a refutation of anything at all.

The article doesn't say, as you incorrectly suggest, that dhv-ing and negging lowers your value instead of raising it, rather that dhv-ing and negging is an effective way of approaching girls -- it won't get you laid, basically.

He doesn't actually have an issue with "dhv-ing" as most people would understand it:

"Is there something wrong with distinguishing yourself? Of course not!".


It's that he seems to think that that "DHV-ing" means "consciously building" and "thinking" about ("obsessing about") your value. Apparently, this is the wrong way to go about it. The proper way to do it is to "ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE VALUE". Is it important whether guy actually does have any value or not? What if he "assumes" he does, but really doesn't? How will he know without "thinking" about it? The author doesn't say.

We do know that the author does consider certain things indicative of "higher value"; things like being witty, a great conversationalist or storyteller are all "one[sic] way demonstrating higher value than the people around you." So dhv-ing, the way most people understand it, is important after all.

So what is the problem then?

Well, apart from the nasty habit of "thinking" about what value you might possess, the key distinction is:

"***A mindset of "Trying to Impress"
versus
***A Mindset of "Not feeling the need to impress others around you.""***"


He'd have us believe the former leads to all sorts of problems, while the latter represents the keys to the kingdom. Unfortunately, he doesn't spend any time telling us why this is the case; he simply asserts it.

Regardless of whether we consciously "try" to impress or simply "assume" that we are impressive (or that we "have high value"), is it important that the girl is "impressed" or realizes our "value"? Curiously, we aren't told.

 

[zerocelcius]

Found this article online.

If you are someone well indoctrinated in reading "seduction community"
advice, chances are you have probably read about the concept of the
DHV and may have been obsessing about trying to constantly build your
value in front of a woman. (Until Now, of course!)

We should all be obsessing about trying to constantly build our value, but not for woman!

DHV stands for "Demonstrating Higher Value." If you have read Neil
Strauss' book, "The Game" then chances are extremely likely that
you have across such silly acronyms a multitude of times already.

I have never read Style's Book, but I have read Mystery's book and I like how he breaks it down. Social Value is a factor of life and society! To ignore it would be ignorant and social suicide.

The belief system is that you must approach people with the mindset
of immediately demonstrating higher value. Otherwise, she'll just
think of you as the next guy in line. If you don't conduct DHVs,
then you are just another Joe Blow from around the block. Thus,
whenever you approach a woman to initiate a conversation,
the first thing you must attempt to do is, "Demonstrate higher value."

Stereotypical at best

Obviously, every quality a person possesses has some perceived value
attached to it. I could write a lengthy list but here are a few
points to illustrate what I mean.

*Good looks have some value,
*A nice physique has some value,
*Wit and sense of humor have value,
*Artistic ability has value
*Being a great story teller has value,
*Being an interesting, well-traveled person has value
*A nice house on the beach has value.

All of the above help to distinguish someone in some manner.
You may possess some of these traits or you can choose to learn
and internalize some of them such as storytelling, for example.
There are many valuable qualities a person can possess, but it
makes for a miserable existence to perceive everything through a
point system of value.

Semantics at work. We all use some kind of point system for everything we do in life. Value, Worth, Interesting, Intriguing, they are how we process life's 'tid bits'! It is how we process life in general and sort info into our schisms.

You've probably all read at some point that attraction is not based
on logic, but rather on emotion. No woman ever takes a scorecard
and adds value points to it. (If she does, that's the type you want
to avoid at all costs anyway!)
Is there something wrong with distinguishing yourself? Of course not!

Stereotypical at best! They may not have a scorecard, but they have the most efficient super computer ever: A Brain.

If you're a funny, smart, interesting, outgoing person, naturally
you're going to present some value. So what am I talking about then?

Good question?

The issue arises when a man approaches each interaction obsessing
about demonstrating his value. If he has to think about it, it
probably means he doesn't believe he has a lot of it.

Stereotypical at best!

When you consciously decide to build and demonstrate "Higher" value
in front of a woman every single time, you automatically assume that
you have less value to begin with. There can be no other assumption.

Stereotypical at best! There is a world of ASSUMPTIONS you could mistakenly make just as bad as this assumption.

If you must build you value, then by default, you essentially
believe that you have less value. This is the only possibility.

It’s Your Value not 'you value' and again Stereotypical at best! This is not the only possibility. Another possibility is you are just coming into the phase where you realize you have value, but you are not used to having it in social situations. It could be a focus phase where you are just getting your mind right. Derek Flint you say you do this every time. You get your mind right and you make their (girls) a$$ yours. That is the same kind of thought process and to say it isn't is pure semantics.

Similarly, if you feel that you must put down a woman every time you
meet one in order to lower her value, what are you assuming?

Nobody says to put down a girl every time. Mystery says to use it when a girl has her shield up. If she is receptive and complacent there is no need for a NEG. What is up with all the Assuming?

You assume that she is better than you. You assume that you she is
above you. You assume that you are lower and less than she is,
and now you must tear her down to your level of misery.

"You assume..." 1. 2. 3. ... 3 times in one very short paragraph. What do we all know about assuming? Tells you a lot about this author. Sounds like he is trapped in the Matrix. The Assuming Matrix.

The author makes it seem like that is how everyone thinks/feels. The only time I would feel this way would be if she acted like she was better than me.

That is an insecure way of thinking.

Only if she didn't act like she was better than you. ASSUMING she is better than you: than yes it is insecure.

As I mentioned before, the problem is not the issue of presenting
value. It lies in the fact of men approaching with the mindset and
belief that "THEY MUST SHOW Higher Value, and they must lower her
value." I meet certain guys and the issue of approaching women pops
up. They try to devise complex strategies in order to approach a
woman as though they were infiltrating Fort Knox.

You know what the problem is here? That this author cares way too much about other guy's approaches. He should be happy if they failed. That means more girls for him and less competition for him. Why is it that he is pushing his assumptions on all of us and than trying to fix a problem that only exists in some guys?

He makes it sound like approaching girls, is as easy as watching TV. Infiltrating Fort Knox? There isn't even gold in there anymore. I would say "IF" you broke social dynamics down, broke sociology down, and you broke psychology down. You would have a lot more pieces and angles than you ever would in breaking down a plan to infiltrate Fort Knox.


....k

I am done. The next Line started out with: "ASSUME YOU HAVE VALUE"

That did it for me..

This article is ignorant, fixed on stereotypes, and assumptions. I hope nobody wasted $ printing this on actual paper.

 

[Mad Manic]

I agree with danger, it's about changing her attitude towards you, not about whether you honestly think you are above her or whatever. You can think what you like, but ultimately she is in charge; you approach her and it's your job to win her over. By DHVing and NEGing this can sometimes help puts your foot in the door.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I agreed with the point that there are guys who feel that they have to do these things consistently and it's possible that they don't believe that their value authentically merits attention.

With that said, I still believe it's important that a guy differentiates himself from his competition, displaying a higher value I believe is the most important way of doing this. Now the question is what is perceived as "value" to your target, it's typically subjective. Also, it doesn't mean that lowering another's value automatically raises yours, again it's subjective.

 

[God_of_getting_layed]

The Mystery Method is severely flawed

 

[Dongfu]

The Mystery Method is severely flawed

examples? otherwise it's just a blanket statement that anyone could make. we want to read some solid reasoning, or at least a statement that could be debated, otherwise we have nothing.

 

[Bvbidd]

Uh as long as she does not know you trying to DHV there is no reason why it would not work.

If she knew you were trying so hard of course it wouldn't work.

 

[Derek Flint]

Quick note: the fact that anyone even tries to "DHV" is coming from a mindset of being of lower value if they feel they need to engage in gimmicks or storytelling or any of that other stuff to raise their value.

Think about guys that are at the top in thier field, whatever it may be - do you think they need to try to do anything to raise their value instead of just doing what they normally do?

I'll go more into this later when I have some time.

And no, I'm not a teenager - I've been in "the community" for over 10 years and have field tested pretty much anything I comment about, and I also see how the community has brainwashed guys with all this BS

 

[ketostix]

Quick note: the fact that anyone even tries to "DHV" is coming from a mindset of being of lower value if they feel they need to engage in gimmicks or storytelling or any of that other stuff to raise their value.

But you're again totally dismissing the arguments we made refuting that conclusion. If you just met a girl and you communicate you have value through a DHV, that simply means you communicated your value to her. And if you meet a girl who does things that suggest SHE thinks she has higher value, you DLVing her is communicating to her that you don't believe she has higher value. Why does a guy's DHV has to be coming from a lower value mindset for a fact? You're just repeating the point made in the article.

Think about guys that are at the top in thier field, whatever it may be - do you think they need to try to do anything to raise their value instead of just doing what they normally do?

I don't know, what do these guys normally do? They probably DHV themselves in many ways. DHV can come in many forms. Simply not DLVing yourself is a DHV.

I'll go more into this later when I have some time.

And no, I'm not a teenager - I've been in "the community" for over 10 years and have field tested pretty much anything I comment about, and I also see how the community has brainwashed guys with all this BS

I'm not sure the community's been around 10 years, but I'll take your word for it. Besides plenty of guys have been working on PU all their lives before any community brainwashing. Some of us can seperate BS from valid info from experience. But your point about beign an experienced guy and that the community is full of BS and brianwashing is well taken.