Help stop me from making the wrong (?) decision - long read

[muscleman]

I'm really glad we have a safehouse here when emotions take over. As some of you know I didn't have the best father figure growing up (hardly taught me anything about women) and I had to learn all this on my own. And I'm still learning. This is one of those experiences.

I needed a day to clear my head and before I go on, I've made the decision to avoid exclusivity (and therefore potential children/marriage) with her. More on that shortly.

@ 5string, bible_belt, three - you mentioned you've been here before. I'd like to hear your stories in a little more detail, as I feel that learning from actual experiences (even if not your own) is better than 'because I said so' principles.

I'd like to quote everyone, but it would get too long so I want to address a few posts:

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I caught feelings for a single mom, she was not marriage material but it was too fun to give up... so I strung it along as far as I could. She pushed hard and fast for commitment, did the usual "My kid has a dad and I'm not looking for any other guy to be a part of his life" song and dance, but you know what? It's ALL bullspit. Every single mom is looking for a father figure/role model/dad for their kid. In my case, it went from "He has a dad" to "I want you to start spending time with him" to "You HAVE to have a relationship with him" to "He needs a father figure" to "If it came down to it, sure I'd expect you to help out, buy him a pair of shoes or take him to football" to "I'd love to sign the dad's parental rights away and just have someone adopt him as their own".

Now, I was smart enough to only meet the kid in passing (and boy did it cause turmoil), but the above is the perfect example of what a single mom is going to push for. Every-single-one. Like you, she also sucked me in hard with lots of sex, anything and everything to please me, living up to the image of what the perfect girlfriend should be. I'll tell you what though.. once they have their claws sunk in, that act vanishes pretty quick. I'm not some chump that caves either.

I can see how this would unravel. She has dropped hints in conversation where I threw out bait. How did it cause turmoil for you?

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MUSCLE, you probably wont like what I'm about to type because you're over-invested in this woman, but you need to disconnect, now.

You're in a what's called the 'loss leader' stage of a relationship with a single mother. Go have a look at my graph here at Navigating the SMP. You are both at the 'comparative SMV' point in your lives. Your SMV is rising, while hers is declining – on some level of consciousness she knows this.

Don't be flattered by her wanting to become exclusive with you. As she's already telegraphed to you,


Translation: "No reasonable offers will be refused."

It's all about her need for long term provisioning, NOT about how she feels about you. This is exactly the attitude I would expect from a woman who's realized the downturn in her capacity to sexually compete with younger, hotter women. Remember, it's not that you don't think she's the best piece of ass you ever had, it's her own realization that she will eventually hit the Wall.

........

You are in the 'bait' stage right now. Of course she'll be down for marathon sex, wild sex, 3-ways, etc. she can't afford not to offer this to her "any guy'. This is the advertisement. Of course she will defer to your frame, this is the advertisement. This is NOT what you will get after the purchase.

You're in a real tough position now because you either stopped spinning plates, or because your other plates don't look as good, or wont perform as well. You're reverting to a scarcity mentality and this single-mommy wants you to.

Imagine how frustrated you'll be when all of that sexual urgency she has to have marathon sex is removed for her. You'll know what's she's been capable of; hot passionate, dirty, 3-way potential sex, but you'll agonize over why she wont do it with the same frequency or vigor once you've signed her contract.

Then, what you'll be left with will be all of the issues you detailed in your Cons list. You will be left with all of the liabilities that come from your Cons list with a greatly reduced potential of reward, and a steadily declining motivation to deliver those rewards.

She's 30, so her fertility window is rapidly closing. If you commit to exclusivity with her now, she will push for marriage and children inside a year. Her hope is that you will remain ignorant of your increasing SMV just long enough to consolidate on that plan.

MUSCLE, the most important thing to keep in mind is that YOU are not special to her. You will fill the role she envisions for herself, but there are any number of other guys who would step into that generic role for her. She's proudly admitted as much already. Why would you (or any guy) want to step into that generic role?

Considering how ones-sided a proposition commitment and marriage are for men, you cannot afford to enter into that arrangement with a woman unless you own her ƒucking soul that she gladly and willingly gives you. You have to mean EVERYTHING to her, not just be the first guy in a line of many who'd participate in her long term breeding plan.

....

NEXT this one. Rip the bandaid off fast and eject.

This hit the nail on the head for me. She's definitely advertising herself well but I can see how it can all change quick and I do feel a little generic. The tough position is as you described it. I didn't stop spinning plates, but a) not with the same vigor since I'm sexually satisfied and b) they're not as hot, which makes it difficult. I do have a new one in the works who comes close and if that materializes in the next week or two it'll be the perfect capstone.

Can you elaborate on disconnecting now? In the non-exclusive sense or complete cut-off? Why one vs. the other? I'll talk about this in a second, but I'd like to keep the door open for potential non-committal 'convenience sex' as she puts it, while letting some other guy wifey her.

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If she does have BPD, keep in mind that there is no 'happily ever after' in her future, with you or with anybody else. Let her marry some other chump. Then she'll be on facebook gushing about how AWESOME and PERFECT he is, making obvious innuendos about their AMAZING sex. But later, sometimes after only a few months, when he inevitably crosses that good-to-bad line, she will become perfectly ok with cheating on him...with you, if you're up for it. Just like the huband/father role now is a generic position, as Rollo said, so is the sex role when she gets mad at hubby. At least you wouldn't be the chump who traded a few months of good pvssy for a lifetime of raising her kids.

This is the ideal situation actually. I've had girls cheat on their SO's with me and as sad as it is sometimes, I can't argue with reality and I'd rather be 'that guy' if I had to choose. The question is, how do I leave her in the most alpha way possible to keep the door open for some fun down the road?

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One thing I noticed off the bat which frustrates me is that I missed the TRUE fun 23 year old hotter party girl. How do I get THAT girl (obviously not with her) moving forward? I'm on the back-end for long term provisioning and it's not going to happen.

But with regards to her now, how do you recommend I handle this moving forward? As I mentioned I want to keep the door open for potential non-exclusive sex while she searches for long-term elsewhere. I also want to be as alpha as possible so that if/when the time comes for her to seek sexual validation again, I'm the one she comes to.

With that said, I have 4 options that I see moving forward:

Option #1 - Accept faux exclusivity I'd rather not do this. Sure it would guarantee some sex for a while, but I'd still be spinning other plates. To this day I have a flawless record. I have never cheated on a girl who I verbally made an exclusive commitment to, and I'd rather not tarnish my reputation this way. I just haven't made commitments with most girls in the first place. It would also make for additional attachment and a potentially messy breakup.

Option #2 - Decline exclusivity, open door This is ideally what I'd like to do. Explain to her when I see her and when the subject comes up that 'I enjoy spending time with you, I want to get to know you better, I do have feelings for you, but that I can't give you what you want right now - marriage and kids.'

Option #3 - Delay exclusivity again Not sure how I feel about this. Basically trying to defer this to another day, but it's already happened several times and I think it might just be spinning wheels and pissing her off. Flashpoint's suggestion of 'you're about to ruin a good thing here by being pushy'. This might be kind of a beta move, might as well just tell her how it is.

Option #4 - Complete cut-off I'd rather not do this. I feel it's closing the door in the future without any real present benefit. Also, if I go with Option #2 and she's hellbent on kids + husband, she'll cut me out as she sees fit anyway.

Thoughts?

 

[Boilermaker]

Maybe you should practice Option #4 this time. Because you sound overly invested, and maybe you need to remember that alleviating feeling of NEXT'ing.
You see, anything other than Option #4 will make you run in circles because any other choice will eventually converge to Option #1 and then to Option #0 : Real Exclusivity. You got what you wanted from this chick and the trial-period is over. Either pay up or get the fvck out. Rollo hit it right on, I am so glad he takes the time to impart his knowledge from time to time. That SMV plot is gorgeous and it made my day.


Remember: Women use manipulation tactics and deals like this far better than men, and even though you are thinking you are "conveying" one of your Options, in reality she will never fully agree with them and the battle will rage on. Sh!t tests, lies, two-digit IQ mind games and whatnot. You can't play this game with women, and you have to keep it simple.

 

[pdx1138]

oh man what a thread!! That Rollo post was epic.

In the other thread about her I asked how long that line about time spent would tide her over....looks like a week or two at best. Sounds about right.


I've been in your shoes Muscle. (no kids though she hated her father)

And I didn't like the corner she backed me into...not one bit.

If I didn't at least have kids in the near future "on the table"
I was "wasting her time." that pissed me off and ruined my day.

What I did was lessen contact, get a few more lays in and let the eventual "I want to see other people" line rear itself.

It happened 3 weeks later.

It sucked.

But it wasn't in my interest to have kids now and I won't allow
hot puzzy to change that, so I let her go.

It was tough, but the right thing to do.

option #2 is what I'd do.

option #3 will keep replaying every other week.

I'd start getting something going with that new hottie. That will be quite helpful,
I didn't have any plates when she broke it off. That was the "it sucked" part.

Keep us updated here.

 

[Boilermaker]

Trouble is they aren't after mere exclusivity.

They are after your money, affection, time, life experience, earnings, your family, your brother, your house, your sexual rights and then some.

They don't realize the magnitude of their expectations and they consider this as their "most natural" right.


They are crazy!

 

[DonJuanabe]

Every so often someone writes a post about his recent ex-gf making up things that never existed or happened in their relationship, or that he did something or didn't do something when in fact the opposite is true, or she lies about X, Y, or Z, etc. In the girl's mind, however, what she is saying is reality because it justifies her feelings.

Where am I going with this? Whatever she told you about her past relationships with men is nothing more than her words concerning those relationships. Maybe they are accurate. Maybe they are accurate because she drove the guy f'ing crazy with her whack behavior. Maybe, while it's true the guy hit her, he did so because she came at him with a bottle or a kitchen knife. Maybe they are not accurate at all. You will never know. The only thing you do know is she trying to elicit sympathy from you so she can draw out the white knight in you that is just itching to save this ho from... herself.

 

[sodbuster]

IF you let them talk long enough, they will tell you everything you need to know. She did and you don't like what you hear? Only question is how you are going to leave her.

Had an ex tell me she cheated on her husband,she cheated on that BF with me,she sexed the neighbor who did some wiring for her[she was upset that he drunk dialed her one night and was warning me not to do it] and she is looking for a sugar daddy... since YOU aren't sleeping with her, what do you think? She was very enthusiastic about sex, but she had to go

 

[Three]

Muscleman, I would be inclined to go with option #2 if you are detached enough and still spinning plates (as I believe you do already). If you are getting too emotionally involved, option #4.

As for my own story, I think I'll have to put together the whole thing for a post of it's own at some point in the near future. I've given out bits and pieces and much of it is pretty sad and some is downright embarrassing, but take it as a cautionary tale.

Even at my age --42 at this writing-- life is not over and neither should it be for you at your young age. You're making the correct decision to not commit, but to be honest about it. Hell, you can be completely honest and go with either #2 or #4.

For myself, I'm working sort of a hybrid approach to #4 as I'm severely limiting contact with my stbx who wants me to let her son see my kids and trying to do whatever she can to worm back in. She admitted on the phone to me a few days ago that MAYBE she had made a mistake. This makes me furious!

Enough highjacking of your thread. Only you can decide whether you're too deep to have any contact with this woman. But, remember, if you see her often and are a part of her kids' life, then you are getting WAY too involved. The only safe distance is for booty calls every week or two or even less. If you can define the relationship down to that, then you may be safe.

But, then again, if that's all there is to it, you can pretty much find that elsewhere without all the complications, right?

 

[muscleman]

I'm making a big deal over nothing. The reason I had my emo day is because on some level I sensed that it was our 'breakup' and my feeluns were a little hurt. She literally gave it 4 weeks. I think the conversation we had the other night where she expressed her 'frustration' was a final go for her in terms of me committing. The next morning she was still warm and kissing and what not, but as I left I felt a little off, which prompted this thread. We were going to hang out last night but she told me she was tired (I bartend some nights) and wanted to go to sleep early and didn't feel like staying up late having sex. She's being more distant. I think we may be getting together again in a few days, but maybe not. I'm going to set up plans and respond to cold with cold and see where it goes. If she declines/cancels again I'm out. I might be relegated to booty call, if that, which I'm ok with, but as Three mentioned if it's going to be overly dramatic I won't even bother. In a way I feel she kind of next'd me, which is fine too. It was refreshing to have a 1 month 'girlfriend experience' though after a string of ONS and it's definitely motivating me to become an even higher value Man.

 

[Boilermaker]

You see, this is what happens when we are given the "venom" ...

Muscleman still depends on this chick's response -> basing your reaction to a woman's reaction is a very slippery road.

"If she declines/cancels, I am out"


You may have slept with fifty different girls, I am sorry, but after all this advice you have been graciously given,

you are being a thickheaded AFC going through a one-itis to a promiscuous single mom who has long hit the imaginary wall....

Cheers,

 

[muscleman]

So someone I haven't been exclusive with, and am not going to be exclusive with but would like to keep the door open for sex is being a 'thickheaded AFC going through oneitis'? Ok then.

 

[AW1983]

So someone I haven't been exclusive with, and am not going to be exclusive with but would like to keep the door open for sex is being a 'thickheaded AFC going through oneitis'?

Not yet, but I think he's saying this is how it starts...

 

[PrettyBoyAJ]

The girl is used...... She already has a kid. That should be game over there. and she is bi?? So you got to worry about other girls too.

SMH. Quit wifing up jumpoffs!

 

[Boilermaker]

So someone I haven't been exclusive with, and am not going to be exclusive with but would like to keep the door open for sex is being a 'thickheaded AFC going through oneitis'? Ok then.

yes, your positional judgment and clarity is compromised. That 'keeping the door open for sex' negotiation is never going to be what you imagine it is to be, and you are willingly setting yourself up to get into a vicious drama cycle.

Instead of trying to come up with silly bullet points; just admit the fact that you CANNOT walk away in this situation. That's fine, we have all been there. But until you cut that crap out, yes, you are being a thick-headed AFC. Because you cannot fool guys like RT with this, maybe you can go under the radar of your unplugged buddies. But please spare us the talk. I don't need another guy's reason as to why he "shouldn't" walk away. The real question is can you walk away? Looks to me you realize you should (judging from what you said earlier) but that's not happening... Moreover, you are blissfully surrendering your emotional stability and well-being to this very manipulative single mommy.

Feel free to rationalize your decision. If I shave off the baloney from your later posts (after you have been instructed by the world's best on this); it looks to me that you will meekly wait for a response like a puppy and if she lets you hump her then you will lick and like her.

That's your modus operandi, am I correct?

 

[muscleman]

It's over. On a positive note she was the hottest lay to date and I'm glad I got a month of it. The downside (upside?) is that it's bumping me up to a higher notch standard which is narrowing my prospects and making me target the higher end pvssy. Guess that's part of the game though, like Chris Rock said 'men can't go backwards sexually'.

 

[Die Hard]

Hope you're doing okay, man. Keep on going strong!!

 

[betheman]

...she felt people thought she was a slvt, so she did a 180 and started 'fvcking anything with tattoos'.
- definitely a string of abusive relationships (ex husband was a drunk who beat her, had one guy she was seeing beat her and she tried to commit suicide, etc).
- diagnosed with clinical depression the past year.
- has told me that I'm very affectionate/sweet and that she's not used to it. shes not used to it cos its not what she wants, this is sucha BS line to feed you, its a subtle warning.

- she also mentioned that her ex husband cheated on her and that she forgave him, so she's basically ok with a free pass.



If she is in fact BPD, why would she gravitate/stick through abusive relationships (even though she did end up leaving all of them)? Why the drive to have kids by multiple men? And it did cross my mind that if she gravitates towards that, I'd have to treat her like sh!t at some point if I wanted to keep her around ... except I've never done that to girls, it's just not me. This just doesn't make sense.

she may or not be a BDP but there are more than enough red flags in this for me to come to the conclusion, the woman you are having a relationship now, will not be the same woman once she has got what she wants. Id Tread very carefully and be prepared to cut this one off.

p.s. posted this before reading the entire thread, so strong was my desire to contribute.

 

[muscleman]

Hope you're doing okay, man. Keep on going strong!!

I'm fine, but she kinda spoiled it for me with a couple in-progress plates. I can't fvck them cause now I have higher standards and my d!ck just won't get very hard. I don't know if I'll ever be able to bang anything below a 7-7.5 again (absolute lowest), but I guess that's a good thing?

 

[SecondHalf]

I'm fine, but she kinda spoiled it for me with a couple in-progress plates. I can't fvck them cause now I have higher standards and my d!ck just won't get very hard. I don't know if I'll ever be able to bang anything below a 7-7.5 again (absolute lowest), but I guess that's a good thing?

It fades ... or rather she will fade.
My ex was a 9+, 15 years together, still a 39 year old killer!
However, 3 years later you can start to value other attributes.
Now, she wouldn't turn me on as much as a 7 with high interest.

The whole SMV thing is great for one night stands, or short term things, but there is more going on. A spark or twinkle, idiosyncrasy, or even bat sh1t crazy can sometimes turn your crank!

Worry not about this, it will work itself out, it always does!

SH