Help me get my head on straight!

[WildThang]

Originally posted by Wyldfire:

If a guy absolutely doesn't want to get involved with a woman with children, that's his perogative. I don't think it's the wisest choice to limit yourself like that, though. I'm guessing that around 30% of women are married. Another 20% are likely over 45 years old. 26% are underage. Let's round it off to 75% of the women being taken, too young, or too old. Almost 16% are single Moms. That leaves only 9% of all women as being single, no kids, and between 18 and 45. Probably 75% of that remaining 9 percent are either fat, unattractive, psycho, or a lousy personality. How many of those remaining "dateable" women are going to live in your area?

Just something for the fellas to think about.

Yeah guys - remember, whatever happens, you have to settle for what women are willing to give you.

There's not enough to go around out there, so settling is what you do. It's what nice guys do, and you are nice, aren't you?

Which means if she has kids, it's your responsibility to do the dutiful daddy thing and take some other guy's kids to the school play, because that's what she wants, and that's what you're gonna get.

If you're really lucky you might even get some sex afterwards.

You want to do something else? It's not an option here. What *you* want doesn't matter.

Are you getting this loud and clear?

You absolutely do not want to believe that anything better than this is possible.

If you want anything better - who are you kidding?! I mean - what is this anyway? You think you can go out and get some top quality puzzy just because you're a guy, or something?

Okay - ya all got that now?

It's not like you ever see guys in their forties with women in their twenties, is it?

Doesn't happen at all - uh uh. Not round where you live, anyway. so just forgedaboutit, okay?

Sheesh...

 

[bclarke675]

WildThang, your post is pretty funny, considering about a month ago I did hook up with a 21 year old for a one nighter, although she wanted more. It isn't that I can't get that, it's that I don't want that for a mature long-term relationship.

I married the woman I did, because as Wyldfire pointed out, she had older kids that I didn't think would be around long enough to adversely impact our marriage. My point is that the kids were just my ex's excuse to avoid taking the blame herself for ending our marriage. I offered counselling, etc. to try to improve things between us, me and her kids. She wouldn't even try. That told me that she never really loved me. If she had, she'd have done anything to save our marriage.

The woman I'm dating now is 12 years younger, instead of three years older, like my ex was. I thought being older, my wife would be mature enough to value the kind of relationship I was offering her. Obviously mental age and physical age weren't in synch with her. I was/am physically younger looking than I am, but mature as my age otherwise, except I know how to have fun. Anyway, dating someone 12 years younger does mean her kids are going to be around for another ten years, instead of the two I had left with my ex's youngest. That's part of the decision I have to make. However, I feel that if my new interest and I have enough in common and are compatible, it won't be that big a deal.

Even if they were my own kids, there would be plenty of compromises and situations to deal with. I'm not afraid of that. I just want to be fairly certain that I won't work to build a relationship with a woman and her family, only to be dumped on in five or six years. I know there are no guarantees, but if I keep my head while we're dating, I can make a better determination of the probability of successfully having a lifetime relationship with a woman. That's all I'm looking for. Simple, yet difficult.

 

[WildThang]

Originally posted by bclarke675:
WildThang, your post is pretty funny, considering about a month ago I did hook up with a 21 year old for a one nighter, although she wanted more. It isn't that I can't get that, it's that I don't want that for a mature long-term relationship.

I married the woman I did, because as Wyldfire pointed out, she had older kids that I didn't think would be around long enough to adversely impact our marriage.

And that was your first mistake. You should have married her because she couldn't get enough of you and thought you were the best thing ever. And because she was low-maintenance. Both of which would have made her feel far more like doing whatever she could to make your life a joy and delight rather than the misery it turned into.

Look what happened here. You *agreed* - willingly, with full knowledge - to marry this woman because you knew her kids would be gone soon.

This implies you didn't really want them around all that much, doesn't it?

My point is that the kids were just my ex's excuse to avoid taking the blame herself for ending our marriage. I offered counselling, etc. to try to improve things between us, me and her kids. She wouldn't even try. That told me that she never really loved me. If she had, she'd have done anything to save our marriage.

Yes, this does say something about her.

But it says a *lot* more about you.

Why did you marry a woman who cared so little about you that she not only ended the relationship, but also gave you a load of BS about why she ended it?

Why did you not notice this was likely to happen before it did?

Could it be that you 'compromised' and supplicated your sorry ass into oblivion in the relationship, and instead of going for something you really wanted you persuaded yourself that what you had was all you were going to get?

The woman I'm dating now is 12 years younger, instead of three years older, like my ex was. I thought being older, my wife would be mature enough to value the kind of relationship I was offering her.

Apart from the age issue - which you're right about, and other guys have mentioned here before - this is classic AFC talk!

You don't offer a woman a relationship and hope she values it.

You only go with women that you *know* value you. Because if they don't, you also know you'll have no trouble finding someone who does.

*It doesn't matter* whether you're looking for a one night stand or an LTR. The principle is the same.

If that seems like too much to ask you might as well get used to getting dumped over and over once you get into an LTR. Because that's what's going to keep happening to you if you keep 'offering' and hoping.

Obviously mental age and physical age weren't in synch with her. I was/am physically younger looking than I am, but mature as my age otherwise, except I know how to have fun. Anyway, dating someone 12 years younger does mean her kids are going to be around for another ten years, instead of the two I had left with my ex's youngest. That's part of the decision I have to make.

Why? Why not find someone who doesn't have kids, and have them with her? That way at least they're your kids.

Do you actually want kids, or are you just putting up with them because you think la chicka is cool?

If it's the latter, you're in deep **** already if you're looking for an LTR. The first rule of which is that you want someone for exactly who they are, kids, baggage and all, and not for who they might be one sunny day in the future.

Even if they were my own kids, there would be plenty of compromises and situations to deal with. I'm not afraid of that.

Clue: compromises with your own kids are, indeed, unavoidable. (Unless you leave the country or change your identity.)

Compromises with another guy's kids are not unavoidable. There are any number of single kid-less women out there right now. All you have to do is find them.

And what's this 'not afraid of' crap?

Is this what you told your ex wife? And then you wondered why she didn't respect you?

DJs don't compromise. DJs create the circumstances they want, and enjoy them. If a woman can't do that, no worries - there are plenty of others to try.

I just want to be fairly certain that I won't work to build a relationship with a woman and her family, only to be dumped on in five or six years.

You don't want to be 'fairly certain.' You want to be so ****ing certain that there is almost no chance at all of this happening to you.

You're 'not afraid' to compromise on what you want with a woman, but you're only 'fairly certain' that you don't want to get dumped?

I think we can see the problem right there.

I know there are no guarantees, but if I keep my head while we're dating, I can make a better determination of the probability of successfully having a lifetime relationship with a woman. That's all I'm looking for. Simple, yet difficult.

There may be no guarantees, but there is a whole lot that you can learn which will make a successful relationship more likely.

And that is why this board is here.

 

[bclarke675]

WildThang, I appreciate the "tough love" approach of your post. Many of the comments you make are true...I just never saw them that way before.

My ex did give the appearance of being totally into me prior to our marriage, but that changed almost as soon as we were married.

My biggest problem was that I was desperate at the time to finally get married. I was tired of my immediate and extended family always asking when I was going to find someone to settle down with. I also was tired of sleeping alone. So when the first one came along who appeared to be able to maintain a relationship beyond six months (my usual relationship length), I jumped at the chance to marry her, and ignored many of the warning signs, and exhibited the AFC qualities you point out. Hopefully, I've learned from this experience.

This time around, if I choose a woman with kids, I want to make sure I get along with them and they get along with me. I'm not sure how old you are, WildThang, but there aren't that many attractive single women in my age bracket that haven't had kids already, and even fewer that want to start a family at my age. So I have less choice in the children situation than you seem to think.

I will definitely take your advice and re-evaluate how I view and approach my situations in the future. Thanks again for your candid comments and help.

 

[Wyldfire]

It's pretty early in the game with this woman. You seem to like her and it sounds like you really enjoy her company. Ask her about her "policy" on introducing men she dates to her kids. Find out what you are dealing with in that respect before throwing in the towel. Tell her that you would like to meet her children in a neutral environment (not her home or yours). Ask her to take her kids bowling or to an arcade or something and meet them there. If it goes well she will probably invite you over for dinner soon after.

You're right that you should not jump into anything without knowing you can get along with the kids. Your best bet at having them like you is to not try too hard and aim at a friendship role rather than a parent role. If this leads to something long term, the authority figure role will come into play. It's not a role anyone can just take and try to play...it's one that must be earned through the kids. Never put their father down and encourage them to tell you stories about things they have done with their father. If you and the father can be friendly that always helps.

Follow your heart...it always has the right answers. )

 

[bclarke675]

Thanks, Wyldfire. I'm not even considering throwing in the towel at this point. I do like this woman, and hope something works out. However, I'm trying to keep my options open, so I don't put too much pressure on her, myself or the situation.

I know I screwed up the situation with my ex, when I didn't heed the warning signals I got from her youngest son the first time we met. He was against me from the beginning, locking me out of her parents' back yard at the fence gate. I made the wrong assumption that he'd get over it, and that since he lived with his father, it wouldn't be that big of an issue. The problem came when I agreed to help her fight for custody of him, which I felt was in his best interests, as his father didn't provide a stable or clean home for him. We won, he moved in, his sister moved out to her father's (who was marrying her best friend's mom), citing me as the reason, even though there had been no talk of moving out until her father had to pay support since we had both kids now. She also couldn't get along with her brother. Still, I was blamed. Then, when the son was old enough to threaten to go live with his father, my wife left me instead of risking losing another child. All because I had rules for our household, and their father let them do what they wanted (and for the most part, so did their mother).

Anyway, I don't want a repeat of that situation. It isn't fair to me, my significant other or her kids. So I feel the need to keep the pressure off as much as possible until I do get to meet her children.

Also, something I didn't discuss earlier. I do like kids! My ex's grandkids still ask to see me and refer to me as Grandpa. And I was the one who was able to settle them down when they got too cranky or wound up!

Thanks for the tip on how to meet the kids. I'm sure a neutral spot would be much better than my place or hers. I also like the fact that she wants to get to know me better before exposing her kids to me. My ex didn't take that precaution, and I think we all paid for it.

As a side note, it's Sunday, and I didn't try to contact my new date at all this weekend, as she was working Fri, Sat and Sun. I plan on calling her tomorrow to see how well she made it through the weekend and try to firm up plans for next Friday (comedy club date). Wish me luck.

 

[Don_Juanabe]

Originally posted by Wyldfire:

Follow your heart...it always has the right answers.

)

Wyldfire,

You are absolutely, positively, without any reservation whatsoever, wrong. Your brain always has the right answers; your heart only has answers it hopes for.

DJBe

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by Don_Juanabe:
Wyldfire,

You are absolutely, positively, without any reservation whatsoever, wrong. Your brain always has the right answers; your heart only has answers it hopes for.

DJBe

Gotta disagree with you. Your brain talks you out of doing what your heart has the urge to do. If you listen to your head over your heart you are left spending your life wondering "what if". Following your heart doesn't always work out as you might hope for it to work out...but you have no "what ifs" and you learn valuable lessons you were meant to learn. That sees you through whatever comes next. That's one of the most crucial parts of growing as a human being.

 

[Don_Juanabe]

Originally posted by Wyldfire:
Following your heart doesn't always work out as you might hope for it to work out...but you have no "what ifs" and you learn valuable lessons you were meant to learn. That sees you through whatever comes next. That's one of the most crucial parts of growing as a human being.

Given how many people make the same mistakes over and over, such as a woman who continually pursues men who abuse her, I'd have to say that it is not the case that you "learn valuable lessons" or your heart "sees you through whatever comes next." Lessons learned are learned with the brain, which accepts reality, not the heart, which generally denies reality. Growing as a human being is of course good, but it comes from making mistakes. The mistakes are caused by the heart, the growth comes from applying your brain to the mistake to learn the lesson. Brain = reality. Heart = fantasy. Women think with their hearts, hence they feel rather than think, and it is why they live in a fantasy world of white knights, prince charmings, blah, blah, blah. No offense intended, as you do seem to be a pretty cool woman from what I have read.

DJBe

 

[WildThang]

Originally posted by Wyldfire:
Gotta disagree with you. Your brain talks you out of doing what your heart has the urge to do. If you listen to your head over your heart you are left spending your life wondering "what if". Following your heart doesn't always work out as you might hope for it to work out...but you have no "what ifs" and you learn valuable lessons you were meant to learn. That sees you through whatever comes next. That's one of the most crucial parts of growing as a human being.

'Meant to learn?'

Uh oh - this woman is a New Ager. And that means, definitively, without a shadow of a doubt, that she has no idea what she's talking about.

She probably has dream catchers hanging in her window, and posters of dolphins and moons everywhere.

But about this head/heart thing... What about the liver? And the spleen? And the appendix? Where would we be without those, huh?

People, listen to your spleen every day. It is the key to higher wisdom. If you let it, it will guide to places you can, as yet, only imagine.

Etc.

 

[Wyldfire]

People only stop repeating such cycles when they have grown and learned what they need to learn. Those cycles are about trying to relive a past experience and get a different outcome. People who do that are doing it because they subconsciously need to so they can process their feelings, heal and move on. Some people can do that quickly, but others will spend their entire life without figuring this out. Once a person realizes what the cycle means they usually stop repeating it.

Of course using your brain is important...never said it wasn't. My point is that when your heart and head are battling over what to do to the point where you are feeling very troubled inside you should always follow your heart. If you don't, you will ALWAYS have regrets and wonder about it to the point where it haunts you for the rest of your life. For me, following my heart runs hand in hand with my spirituality. I pray daily for strength and guidance and am a firm believer that God gives me the answers I need through my heart. The right path and guidance is always there IF we pay attention. This might help explain my philosophy about this a bit better. In times of a dilemma I view my heart as God's guidance and my head as the devil's interference...if that makes sense to you.

 

[Take No Dirt]

Wyldfire said "My point is that when your heart and head are battling over what to do to the point where you are feeling very troubled inside you should always follow your heart."

-------------------

Me: For one of the few times ever, I must disagree with Wyldfire on this one. Follow my heart rather than what my head tells me to do or not to do? Examples: If I am a DJ who falls head over heels for a married woman, my head tells me she's unavailable and it won't work, but my love smitten heart says otherwise. Which do I follow? The same goes for romance in the workplace. Logic and common sense tell me to stay away from such romances, but my easily impressionable heart yearns for this hot co-worker in my department.

The heart is untrustworthy and many a dude's life has been ruined by following his giddy heart. Men think things out while women rely on their heart/emotions/feelings.

 

[roadwarrior]

Great post!...excellent points from all sides!!

A quick take...there is no right or wrong, cut and dried here. Each situation is unique.

Women with children can prove difficult, no doubt, for numerous reasons. On the other hand, I've usually found them to be much more stable, down to earth and mature than the childless game players who often seem more concerned in finding 'Mr. Jerk' to provide them with some short term excitement. Weigh all the pros and cons and then decide what YOU want. Proceed accordingly.

Brain vs Heart...again good advise from all angles.

My take...a good DJ does not LEAD with his heart. He uses his brain, puts his knowledge into practice, watches for red flags, learns from his mistakes...etc, at which point he becomes far better equipped in being able to FOLLOW his heart...a big, big difference.

There are tons of fastastic, available women out there, with children and without. Never limit you vision by a particular mindset.

You may end up overlooking THE ONE!!

[This message has been edited by roadwarrior (edited 11-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by roadwarrior (edited 11-06-2001).]

 

[Don_Juanabe]

This head vs. heart thing...

*My Hall of Fame post about being objective at all times sums it up.*

I went with my heart rather than my brain with my last girlfriend and it took me almost a year to get over her after she used me as her emotional dumpster and therapist, broke up with me and thereafter ridiculed me, lied to people about me, was in denial about herself, and was more hypocritical and self-righteous than any woman I've ever met, tho to this day my heart longs for her but my brain is bitter and angry and will not let me contact her at all. My spleen on the other hand is probably out causing all sorts of panic and pandemonium, but that's another story.

As Jack Nicholson put it "I think of a man and take away all reason and accountability."

DJBe

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by WildThang:
'Meant to learn?'

Uh oh - this woman is a New Ager. And that means, definitively, without a shadow of a doubt, that she has no idea what she's talking about.

She probably has dream catchers hanging in her window, and posters of dolphins and moons everywhere.

But about this head/heart thing... What about the liver? And the spleen? And the appendix? Where would we be without those, huh?

People, listen to your spleen every day. It is the key to higher wisdom. If you let it, it will guide to places you can, as yet, only imagine.

Etc.

No, I'm not into the whole "New Age" thing. I am a veteran of Al-Anon, which helped me to see things in a whole new perspective. I am pretty anti-organized religion, so I consider myself "spiritual", but I have a firm belief in God. I have been studying human behavior and psychology for a good 20 years as a hobby.

You seem to have a problem with me, as well as repeated assumptions that are way off the mark. Care to explain why?

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by Take No Dirt:
Wyldfire said "My point is that when your heart and head are battling over what to do
to the point where you are feeling very troubled inside you should always follow your heart."

Dirt...following your heart isn't about being selfish...it's about doing the thing your heart tells you is right for you. Sometimes it means giving up something dear to you because it's the right thing to do, and even though it hurts like hell, you know in your heart that it's the right thing. Sometimes it means taking a risk and being vulnerable.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by roadwarrior:


Brain vs Heart...again good advise from all angles.

My take...a good DJ does not LEAD with his heart. He uses his brain, puts his knowledge into practice, watches for red flags, learns from his mistakes...etc, at which point he becomes far better equipped in being able to FOLLOW his heart...a big, big difference.

THANK YOU!!! The difference between following your heart and letting your heart lead you was the point I was trying to make. Thanks for putting it in "guy speak" for me!

 

[WildThang]

Originally posted by Wyldfire:

You seem to have a problem with me, as well as repeated assumptions that are way off the mark. Care to explain why?

Nice try.

I will only say this once. As you may have noticed by now, this is a guys' board, by guys, for guys. This means that being female doesn't make you an authority on anything at all.

For why, you ask?

Because the one thing chicks will always, reliably, do is try to persuade guys that their own emotional understanding of a situation is weaker, less important, and generally not right compared to that of the women around them. (Who of course have no interest in the outcome, and are only looking out for everyone equally - right?)

The other thing chicks will always, reliably do is try to get as much attention from guys as possible. Usually in as an indirect a way as possible.

And that's exactly what you're doing here. On both counts.

Younger guys are too inexperienced to see how you're playing the game. (In fact I expect that - 20+ years of psychology books or no - *you're* too inexperienced to see how you're playing the game too and believe your motives are entirely sweet and innocent. But that's just how chicks are.)

This all kind of a shame, but you sticking around may just be useful for those guys.

So don't go. Please keep posting the same old same old. We all need practice with our chick BS filters, and there's nothing like some real live examples to hone our discrimination skills up by a notch or two.

And while we're here - you study astrology, you claim to be spiritual, you read tons of psychology books, you say things that a typical New Ager would say (about lessons, and all of that.) But you're not into any of that really?

Well, tie me to a tree and call me Beverley, but if it looks like a duck and squawks like a duck, what are the chances that it's not a feathered aquatic avian of distinctive plumage and ungainly waddle?

<snort>

I can feel my spleen reeling at the sheer audacity of it, even as we speak.

 

[Gipper]

Well, tie me to a tree and call me Beverley, but if it looks like a duck and squawks like a duck, what are the chances that it's not a feathered aquatic avian of distinctive plumage and ungainly waddle?


Wow! Is that an allegory or an extended metaphor?

Literary Gipper

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by WildThang:
Nice try.

I will only say this once. As you may have noticed by now, this is a guys' board, by guys, for guys. This means that being female doesn't make you an authority on anything at all.

For why, you ask?

Because the one thing chicks will always, reliably, do is try to persuade guys that their own emotional understanding of a situation is weaker, less important, and generally not right compared to that of the women around them. (Who of course have no interest in the outcome, and are only looking out for everyone equally - right?)

The other thing chicks will always, reliably do is try to get as much attention from guys as possible. Usually in as an indirect a way as possible.

And that's exactly what you're doing here. On both counts.

Younger guys are too inexperienced to see how you're playing the game. (In fact I expect that - 20+ years of psychology books or no - *you're* too inexperienced to see how you're playing the game too and believe your motives are entirely sweet and innocent. But that's just how chicks are.)

This all kind of a shame, but you sticking around may just be useful for those guys.

So don't go. Please keep posting the same old same old. We all need practice with our chick BS filters, and there's nothing like some real live examples to hone our discrimination skills up by a notch or two.

And while we're here - you study astrology, you claim to be spiritual, you read tons of psychology books, you say things that a typical New Ager would say (about lessons, and all of that.) But you're not into any of that really?

Well, tie me to a tree and call me Beverley, but if it looks like a duck and squawks like a duck, what are the chances that it's not a feathered aquatic avian of distinctive plumage and ungainly waddle?

<snort>

I can feel my spleen reeling at the sheer audacity of it, even as we speak.

I study astrology because I've found that there are some very interesting connections between a person's birth chart and their psychological make up and behavior patterns. You again made an assumption without taking into consideration (or even taking the time to ask) of the motivation.

The rest of your post is full of assumptions as well. You can think what you like...makes no difference to me. I am confident that there are plenty of men here who are finding my input helpful and insightful.