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Heated Debate with GF over monogamy

Rex Man

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ok, BB, even looking at this from a purely scientific standpoint your logic and horse analogy is faulty. Diversity is what keeps populations resilient (like Falcon pointed out). The reason being is that diverse animals (I'm putting people in there as well) can handle diverse circumstances. It has nothing to do with the 'alpha' mating with all the females.

Yes, the alpha system is designed so that the extremely weak and handicapped (i.e. faulty) individuals won't spread detriment to the entire species. However diversity is the reason there are still birds in the sky. The sole reason for animals adaptibility

The horse racing analogy doesn't apply because we're dealing with artificial circumstances. Horse breeders are going to breed horses to be good racers. The horses are kept in environments without 'natural' circumstances so this phenomenon is a result of human intervention and not nature. Whose to say rather they are breeding populations that would be good in nature.

Also like LMS said, a woman can only be pregnant by one guy at a time, so how many people an individual impregnates is a non-issue as far as birth rate is concerned.
 

Bible_Belt

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Every debate is really about morals. Everyone has different ones, which is why all of the never-ending debates never end.

af worked at a family court in Chicago and every day she saw women with hordes of children, sometimes 12-16, and they would not know the name of a single father of any of them. It's hard to see people like this every day and still support an unquestioned right of everyone to reproduce at will. But the alternatives are not that much more appealing. The government would just abuse the power if they could sterilize people.
 

Dongfu

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Check out the movie "Idiocracy" Its about stupid people breeding faster than smart ones, and the desolate future that brings. Its a comedy with luke wilson
 

Tazman

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backbreaker said:
And I'm not talking about what's right and what's wrong, or what you like and dont' like.. but which is more natural.
Ok, but how do you "know" what's natural and what's not? That seems to be an entire debate on it's own.

I'm sexually aroused by attractive women and I want to have sex with them, this feeling doesn't change no matter what woman I happen to have a relationship with. I guess this is natural.

Let's say you have a woman who is married to a successful guy who is a good provider, father and husband. Is it "natural" for her to want to have sex with a guy she finds attractive who happens to be performing maintenance on her house? (true story)

I think a human beings' ability to "reason" is a very "natural" thing. I can't see what one likes/dislikes or feels is right/wrong as being totally seperate from what you'd call natural. I may choose to be monogamous because I can better survive the ups and downs of life rather than juggling multiple women who can become a strong source of stress.

There is a whole other element to human beings that involves a lot of critical thinking, which you won't find in any other animal.
 

Dante1a

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Women are naturally drawn to the "man who can get any girl". That's where the "harem effect" comes into play. Once a girl (preferably the female group leader) f***s you, the others (whom are attracted) want to (even if they don't say it).

When a woman gets a boyfriend that "understands her" and "supports her" and "faithful to her", that is about companionship and quelling some of the woman's internal insecurities.

Not that there is anything wrong with companionship, etc..but I believe that is the difference between the two.
 

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Maxtro

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Lets bring up a different point. Are humans a monogamist species? I would say no. At least not fully monogamist. The first point to bring up is that 50% of all marriages end in divorce. That has to be a wake up call right there that something is wrong.

Actually after doing a little bit of research I came to the conclusion that humans are a serial monogamist species. Wiki

The whole problem with the marriage system is that it completely goes against our nature. I strongly believe that a marriage should only be a 5 year contract or less. Every 5 years the contract is up for renewal and both partners have to decide if they want to renew it or not and if the contract should be renegotiated.

It's just very hard for humans to stay in "love" with somebody for their entire lives. We are always changing and the person we "loved" yesterday might not be there anymore.

Honestly I don't like the thought of only being with one woman the rest of my life after I get married. I'll probably try to push for an Open Marriage
 

backbreaker

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Lets bring up a different point. Are humans a monogamist species? I would say no. At least not fully monogamist. The first point to bring up is that 50% of all marriages end in divorce. That has to be a wake up call right there that something is wrong.
which is partly what I'm trying to say. As of now, society is fighting against what seems to be a subconcious trend to stay with one person.
 

Maxtro

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I don't even think the trend to stay with one person is subconscious. It was in fact forced upon us by society. Times have changed and the old ways are starting to loose their hold.

Once the gays can legally marry in every state of the US then that is basically the nail in the institution of marriages coffin. Marriage would mean absolutely nothing. I would still do it for the tax breaks and what not but not out of some desire to spend the rest of my life with somebody "till death do us part" :rolleyes:
 

Tazman

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Maxtro said:
It's just very hard for humans to stay in "love" with somebody for their entire lives.
When you say "love" what exactly are you referring to? If you mean that feeling you get when a relationship is new and you're having great sex, then yes I agree. However, I believe you can "love" somebody your entire life if it's that feeling you get when you care about someone's well-being and it's reciprocated.

After a certain amount of time your feelings will indeed change, you won't have that strong lustful feeling that you had early on, but that doesn't mean it's time to move on (you both may still get along and keep in good health). I still believe in the saying that most people are only as faithful as their options. Sure, if you're in a position to bed multiple women and it's worthwhile for you, you'll do it and enjoy it, but how long will it last?

I think both monogamy/polygamy have their benefits, but there isn't a definite side I'd choose because it all depends on each person's circumstance. There are consequences for both. It isn't as black and white as you might think.
 

backbreaker

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Tazman said:
When you say "love" what exactly are you referring to? If you mean that feeling you get when a relationship is new and you're having great sex, then yes I agree. However, I believe you can "love" somebody your entire life if it's that feeling you get when you care about someone's well-being and it's reciprocated.

After a certain amount of time your feelings will indeed change, you won't have that strong lustful feeling that you had early on, but that doesn't mean it's time to move on (you both may still get along and keep in good health). I still believe in the saying that most people are only as faithful as their options. Sure, if you're in a position to bed multiple women and it's worthwhile for you, you'll do it and enjoy it, but how long will it last?

I think both monogamy/polygamy have their benefits, but there isn't a definite side I'd choose because it all depends on each person's circumstance. There are consequences for both. It isn't as black and white as you might think.
another poster who has not read the original post
 

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Luveno

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Who cares?

It's all about your personal goals.

If your goal is to have as much sex as you want, then you will. It is a great pleasure in life.

If your goal is to raise kids, then you will. Every man desires to have a son that is just like him, only better. It's a great pride in life.

Due to the complexities of our brains, genes are not the only things that offspring obtain from their parents. They also obtain knowledge(or lack thereof) of the parents while growing up. Therefore, the argument that monogamy is actually beneficial to human existance does carry weight.

If another man is raising your biological son, will the son more resemble you, or the man raising him?



However, in the grand scheme of things, this is entirely pointless.

As for the original poster: your girlfriend sounds like a Westernized moron. I'd kick her out.
 

Phyzzle

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Polygamy is good for the physical and biological well-being of humanity, but it is bad for civilization. Check out #3 and #4 here:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20070622-000002.xml

Think on this Backbreaker . . . you remember that big shot breeder your girl introduced you to? You're pretty successful, but he has more status than you, right? So in a polygamous culture, your girl could easily have already been married to him, and you would have to settle for some other, lesser woman or women.
 

backbreaker

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Phyzzle said:
Polygamy is good for the physical and biological well-being of humanity, but it is bad for civilization. Check out #3 and #4 here:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20070622-000002.xml

Think on this Backbreaker . . . you remember that big shot breeder your girl introduced you to? You're pretty successful, but he has more status than you, right? So in a polygamous culture, your girl could easily have already been married to him, and you would have to settle for some other, lesser woman or women.
seriously.... no one seems to bother to read the original post

IT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO ABOUT OUR PERSONAL OPINION.. I dont' know why everyone keeps harping on that... and Luveno, if you ever say that **** about my owman again, **** that you wouldn't dare say to a man to his face instead of behind his computer.. I'll perosnall PM you my address, air fair money, and and diirections to my house and I'd like to see you say it then.

Back to my point... phyzlle.. I'm sure you are correct. BTW, that big shot breeder is not necessary a big shot, he's just done something that I love for a long amount of time.. I'm (i ould assume, he makes 60k a year) worht more than him. I'd like a science major being able to pick the brain of a nobel peace prize winner

also.. back to my point.. this entire thread is about what is best for the progression of society.. that was what our debate about.. not our personal values, which is why I am getting so pissed because not one person has bothered to read the damn thread and I'm sititng here respnding to **** I shouldn't have to respond to.
 

Tazman

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backbreaker said:
another poster who has not read the original post
I thought I brought up some good points of discussion, but it seems that either you aren't able to understand my responses and/or you just don't agree with them so it has to mean that my comprehension of the original post is lacking, and you'd be wrong.

I'll just leave with this:
Tazman said:
I think a human beings' ability to "reason" is a very "natural" thing. I can't see what one likes/dislikes or feels is right/wrong as being totally seperate from what you'd call natural.
Meaning that just because we have the urge to do something doesn't mean it's totally natural to do it as much as possible. Take an animal out of the wild and give it everything it needs/wants and see how capable it is of functioning after you release it back in to the wild.

Your whole "survival of the fittest" mentality as it relates to this discussion just seems too simplistic. I'll ask again, how do you "know" that polygamy is more "natural" for human beings?
 

backbreaker

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tazman, I didn't say they werne't good points, but the are good points that don't have to do with the original thread, which is my point.

the reason I'm getting peeved, is me and my Gf were sititng down, having a conversation on HISTORY, and how we EVOLVED, and got to talking somehow about which was better for SOCIETY, mongamy or ponamgy... she made her points, I made mine. the next morning, i woke up and said you know.. let me post this on sosuave and get more points of view... and I get bombared with your GF is stupid,w hat else... Mongamy is the only way to go because you are only mean to have one woman, this is right because god said so, it's easier ot maintain a relationshp with 1 woman than 5...


Now you see why I am getting peeved? it has nothing in the least bit to do with the original point, and the reason why no one can ever diccuss anything that requires reading or thinking on this forum, because no one pays attention... no offense to you, and I apprcaite your response and like I said, veyr valid points if that was the point we were aruging, but it's not.

To answer your question... Women can have 1 child at a time while men can father thousands. Thoughout history, even going back to Apes, the conecpt for one woman for one man was a foriegn one. There was usually a pack of women with one man who was the leader of the group... that man had to fight off charges/fights from other men and whoeever wasn't hte man in the group was outcasted. that man, proven to be the domaint man around, got the right to mate with all the owmen int he group, guranteeing his seed, the one with the best chance of survial, was passed on.

this seriously.. isn't that hard of a concept to understand.

this was in place until biblical times and the term marriage was introduced.

what we practice today is basically

Social Monogamy because it's socially expected to share the same resources with an additional person.

Saint Augustine saw a conflict with Old Testament polygamy. He writes in The Good of Marriage ) that, although it whether it be lawful now also, I would not hastily pronounce. For there is not now necessity of begetting children, as there then was, when, even when wives bear children, it was allowed, in order to a more numerous posterity, to marry other wives in addition, which now is certainly not lawful." He refrained from judging the patriarchs, but did not deduce from their practice the ongoing acceptability of polygamy. In chapter 7, he wrote, "Now indeed "was lawful among the ancient fathers:in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife, so as to have more than one wife living."

However, the Roman Catholic Church has subsequently ruled on more fundamental grounds that "polygamy is not in accord with the moral law. communion is radically contradicted by polygamy; n fact, directly negates the plan of God which was revealed from the beginning, because it is contrary to the equal personal dignity of men and women who in matrimony give themselves with a love that is total and therefore unique and exclusive." This is also the normal position

In short, the only reason 95% of the people on this forum believe so deeply in Monogmay is because Saint Augustine thought it was right, which could be said about alot of the bible itself.

what i'm getting at is... Polygamy was not only there, it florshied for 99.99% of our history!!! There are multiple instances of afluent people having more than one wife, therefore having more opproutnities to pass on their genes than people who were not as "fortunate".


even in the bible itself, The first instance of polygamy in the Bible was Lamech... “Lamech married two women…” Several prominent men in the Old Testament were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had more than one wives. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubine. What are we to do with these instances of polygamy in the Old Testament?

What has honestly changed since then than has changed now? Pologamy has been working up until then, if you believe in the bible (see above), or if you believe in evoloution, both grow their roots from pologamy, yet it's shaunned and looked down on.. however we argubly would not be here if it were not for pologamy.
 

iqqi

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BB, you are really obnoxious. Almost everyone has made good (extremely good IMO) points based on your original post, its obvious they read it, and they sound very intelligent and thought out (moreso than you even), and you just keep ranting that noone is reading your post. ? You sound like a lunatic, or a child. If you have one set response that is "OK" and "approved", then why don't you just post it yourself. You asked for people's views, your getting them, but you say you're not?
 

Phyzzle

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this entire thread is about what is best for the progression of society..
Civilization is more important than genetic advantages. => Monogamy is better for the progression of society than polygamy.

Or, restricting ourselves to the original post:

Which do you think is honestly more natural and why?
"More natural" is not a simple question. Bonobos and chimpanzees, who have roughly the same genetic code, and no moral or spiritual qualms, tend to be monogamous. (Though to "cheat" on rare occasions with apes from other groups to prevent inbreeding, since the groups are so small.)

But I do believe that, honestly, part of the reason that our society is getting worse and worse is that people who have no business having kids, are having kids.
Yes. But this is a problem much better addressed by cheaper, better birth control.

Some people have suggested allowing someone to live on welfare checks only AFTER they have voluntarily had their tubes tied . . . creepy idea. But still better than the pitfalls of a polygamous culture.
 

backbreaker

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okay phyzzle now we are getting somewhere...

Civilization is more important than genetic advantages. => Monogamy is better for the progression of society than polygamy.
go back and reread my post.. I added alot to it. Read that.. and given that information, why would you.. no.. what necessarly makes it better.. I'm not saying it's NOT..just want to know why.

Bonobos and chimpanzees, who have roughly the same genetic code, and no moral or spiritual qualms, tend to be monogamous.
there is a theory on this... that monogamy/pologamy of species are in direct correlation to the size of of the male's testies...

Yes. But this is a problem much better addressed by cheaper, better birth control.
dumber people breed faster, and I don't have to tell you the hot 28 year old, with 5 condoms sitting next to her whats to "feel you inside her"

Some people have suggested allowing someone to live on welfare checks only AFTER they have voluntarily had their tubes tied . . . creepy idea. But still better than the pitfalls of a polygamous culture.
I don't like the idea, but it would help solve a problem. HOwever people living on welfare can produce productive people..but the odds of it are not great. however I don't think you can just flat out deny the right of people to bear offspring
 

Phyzzle

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however I don't think you can just flat out deny the right of people to bear offspring
Ah, but they would have the right to bear all the offspring they want. But the next welfare check would not come. They do not have a right to THAT. :D

From the article I linked:

Muslim suicide bombing may have nothing to do with Islam or the Koran (except for two lines in it). It may have nothing to do with the religion, politics, the culture, the race, the ethnicity, the language, or the region. As with everything else from this perspective, it may have a lot to do with sex, or, in this case, the absence of sex.

What distinguishes Islam from other major religions is that it tolerates polygyny. By allowing some men to monopolize all women and altogether excluding many men from reproductive opportunities, polygyny creates shortages of available women. If 50 percent of men have two wives each, then the other 50 percent don't get any wives at all.

So polygyny increases competitive pressure on men, especially young men of low status. It therefore increases the likelihood that young men resort to violent means to gain access to mates. By doing so, they have little to lose and much to gain compared with men who already have wives. Across all societies, polygyny makes men violent, increasing crimes such as murder and rape, even after controlling for such obvious factors as economic development, economic inequality, population density, the level of democracy, and political factors in the region.
Oh great. He didn't cite any source.

I've seen this guy talk before, and he's pretty smart (and respected). Hard to find much about this. Most of the "OMG breakdown of the family!!" research is devoted to vanishing dads. Nobody researches what happens when 100 million healthy 25 year old men suddenly realize they will never have children or an LTR. I wold assume something bad, but I can't find much research yet.
 

backbreaker

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so what, lol, you are saying basically, is that we need we need mongmay to get the guys ass so they won't blow **** up out of pent up furstration?

and while that is a very very valid arguement.. how is that really different than what goes on here? Just take out the word marriage

the vast majority of the men you will run into have not much going for themselves, don't get laid, and if they do they get lucky with some 300 pound woman. In America, there isn't 1 woman for every guy. that's been talked about at nasium here on this very forum. one guy gets a vast majroity of the available ass.. he just doens't marry it, but it's all his. Where do you think the phrase "women would rather share a DJ than to have an AFC to herself" comes from?
 

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