Has online dating and game in general gotten much worse since 2020?

[s74rk]

Has anyone else noticed big differences from a few years ago, 2018-19, and back today? It's really night and day, here's been my experience:

In 2018 and 2019, I achieved the majority of my lays. It was great, I averaged about 1-2 new chicks a week, and broke the triple digits lay count. I don't claim to have amazing game or anything, I just made sure I always had good logistics, and I relied on good looks, decent photos, and online dating apps (tinder) to keep high volume. This is in a big coastal city, over 1M population, fairly liberal, in North America, etc.

In those years I ended up re-making my account 5 times, and each time I achieved over 1000 matches. That was when I generally noticed things dropped off, at 1000 matches. Anyways, point is, you see the caliber of profile I had: can achieve 1k matches within 2-3 months of swiping, had a 30% or so response rate, and of those 30% would agree to meet up, and of the meetups, the first day lay rate was 80%+ because logistics were good and we already pre-selected. This led to 1-2 new lays per week without problem.

Fast forward to 2020, I take a break, come back on, but now my account is getting banned, and after remaking again, it's seemingly shadowbanned (meaning I was able to re-make it but received very little activity). After much research, I find places like reddit's SwipeHelper forum, with other dudes running into the same problems, and eventually I take the steps to seemingly rectify this: new phone, new number, edit the metadata of pics and slightly digitally alter, etc.

It's 2022, I have a working account, the same profile that got me 1000s of matches effortlessly, and it works. But now? The activity is maybe 5% of what it was previously - it's a struggle to get 50 to 100 likes in a month. Boosts ($3 profile boosts) went from getting me 50 likes in an evening to maybe 5 if I'm lucky. Are these apps dying? This makes no sense to me. It's not like I stopped being attractive, the killer pics are the same. BUT it seems like Tinder and other apps are engaging in *massive throttling* or something similar.

Message patterns make no sense, people stop responding randomly. An even lower percentage of matches say anything back. And, while potentially unrelated, at least in my city there are way more trans/crossdressers/etc in the swipe deck. I don't have anything negative to say about these people, but I do think it's an interesting occurrence.

When it comes to in-person dating and game, I've noticed big changes over the last year too. People are lower energy and more timid. What used to be easy "let's meet up for drinks" has become far less common and replaced with excuses. Living in a large liberal city, I wonder how much c0vid hysteria has affected attitudes around social interactions. Though that should be back to normal by now, I guess it's hard for someone free-thinking like me, who never bought into the fear and paranoia, to understand how much the average person's psyche has been affected.

I want to hear about other people's experiences, particularly if you've been active over the last 4+ years. I feel like I've dropped from a top 5% dude to somewhere in the middle, and it makes no sense and is really frustrating. Living in these western feminist environments, we already know as men it's incredibly hard to have a good relationship, marriage and kids are risky, etc. So at least let me 'enjoy the decline' of this degenerate society lol.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Yes. Imo it's a combo of women being f**ked out and an increase in general anxiety.

Edit - and a lack of new, hot, popular apps emerging. The main apps seems to be either at the end or peak of their life-cycles, which tend to go bad once they get super-popular.

 

[Jake_Gyllenhaal69]

I feel like it got worse for me when all of the women scared of the pandemic started coming out lol

 

[Black Widow Void]

In 2018 and 2019, I achieved the majority of my lays. It was great, I averaged about 1-2 new chicks a week,

That’s an average somewhere between 52 - 104 different on line lays per year. I did the online thing while also in my 30’s (this was back when there was much better variety).

I don’t care what year, demographic or age range, there weren’t *that* many women (in one years time) on the personals worth screwing.

Let me guess… your follow up will allegedly claim that you traveled a lot to get these numbers.

Back in my 30’s (and this was back when it was a man’s market) I recall seeing maybe 30 or so women (the legitimate profiles) worth messaging at most during the year.

Normally, I try to be a little more welcoming to new members. However, this claim of yours and considering the availability (of anyone worth screwing that is) doesn’t add up. I’m just not buying the numbers that you claim

 

[Murk]

@Black Widow Void his numbers are high but I smashed 30 women in 2017 (over 10 months) and probably could have done more if I wasn’t drinking so much and working so hard, he’s likely a fun pretty boy going on drinks dates.


OP - Lots of messages you send do not go through to women. I know this for a fact my tinder kind of updated itself or synchronised with… I dunno what I’m even saying here

I got messages from girls I messaged in October 2021 replying this year. When I say sorry you’re 6 months too late they say the message was only just sent.

I’m sure tinder is doing this on purpose but I got confirmation your outbound messages are not all going through. Number close and get them off the app asap.

I agree with you 2017-2019 was amazing for me. Covid/lockdowns have really messed with peoples brains especially young people so I’m not surprised dating is more difficult now.

 

[Zimbabwe]

The ratios on tinder were 9:1 Men to women back in 2014, I can only imagine how much worse it has gotten now.

 

[SW15]

Has anyone else noticed big differences from a few years ago, 2018-19, and back today?

Most men have noticed a difference for the worse. You're not alone.

In those years I ended up re-making my account 5 times, and each time I achieved over 1000 matches. That was when I generally noticed things dropped off, at 1000 matches. Anyways, point is, you see the caliber of profile I had: can achieve 1k matches within 2-3 months of swiping, had a 30% or so response rate, and of those 30% would agree to meet up, and of the meetups, the first day lay rate was 80%+ because logistics were good and we already pre-selected. This led to 1-2 new lays per week without problem.

The math works, as it results in 72 new sexual partners at an 80% first date lay rate.

My match rate was nowhere near that. Neither was my first date lay rate. My logistics were likely not as good as yours though.

That’s an average somewhere between 52 - 104 different on line lays per year. I did the online thing while also in my 30’s (this was back when there was much better variety).

Let's say he got 72 notches in 2018 and 72 notches in 2019, mostly from online. That's possible but rare.

One of the top volume seducers I knew was doing about 40-45 notches a year, mainly from bar approaching in the mid-2010s as a 6'4" white male with an athletic build. He has since gone monogamous and married. Bad idea for him.

It's 2022, I have a working account, the same profile that got me 1000s of matches effortlessly, and it works. But now? The activity is maybe 5% of what it was previously - it's a struggle to get 50 to 100 likes in a month. Boosts ($3 profile boosts) went from getting me 50 likes in an evening to maybe 5 if I'm lucky. Are these apps dying? This makes no sense to me. It's not like I stopped being attractive, the killer pics are the same. BUT it seems like Tinder and other apps are engaging in *massive throttling* or something similar.

Message patterns make no sense, people stop responding randomly. An even lower percentage of matches say anything back. And, while potentially unrelated, at least in my city there are way more trans/crossdressers/etc in the swipe deck. I don't have anything negative to say about these people, but I do think it's an interesting occurrence.

Difficult to say what's happening but you're not doing that well with the algorithm.

That’s an average somewhere between 52 - 104 different on line lays per year. I did the online thing while also in my 30’s (this was back when there was much better variety).

Let's say he got 72 notches in 2018 and 72 notches in 2019, mostly from online. That's possible.

One of the top volume seducers I knew was doing about 40-45 notches a year, mainly from bar approaching in the mid-2010s as a 6'4" white male with an athletic build. He has since gone monogamous and married. Bad idea.

@s74rk -- In 2018-2019, what percentage of lays were from swipe app vs. in-person approaching?

When it comes to in-person dating and game, I've noticed big changes over the last year too. People are lower energy and more timid. What used to be easy "let's meet up for drinks" has become far less common and replaced with excuses. Living in a large liberal city, I wonder how much c0vid hysteria has affected attitudes around social interactions. Though that should be back to normal by now, I guess it's hard for someone free-thinking like me, who never bought into the fear and paranoia, to understand how much the average person's psyche has been affected.

This is mainly social hysteria. What do you do for in-person approaching? Do you propose outdoor dates?

 

[Smok1nAce]

Yep, the “hook up” culture of the 2010s is played out. The height of the movement was around 2015-2016 when all it took was a few texts.

the bar and the club seen has been played out since the 2000s.

I think in the next few years things will come around to a more a natural state. I think people are becoming burnt out from the technology. Especially as working from home becomes the norm and the introduction of robots into everyday society people aren’t gonna want to date through the internet.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Since 2020? No. I do not think things have changed much in the past 3-5 years to be honest. Just more of the same ****.

The best times were in the late 00s to the early 10s undoubtedly. The mid 10 to late 10s were quite inconsistent for me. It seems like things took a turn for the worse around 2015-16 or so, but haven't really gotten much worse since.

I seem to be finding my stride in the past year or so despite not changing much. Men such pussies nowadays that any guy who even vaguely has his **** together really stands out.

 

[SW15]

Since 2020? No. I do not think things have changed much in the past 3-5 years to be honest. Just more of the same ****.

The pandemic did change the mating environment. The mating environment had gotten unhealthier from 2010-2019.

The best times were in the late 00s to the early 10s undoubtedly. The mid 10 to late 10s were quite inconsistent for me. It seems like things took a turn for the worse around 2015-16 or so, but haven't really gotten much worse since.

I started participating in the mating environment in the late 1990s while in high school. I'd say the best experiences with the overall mating environment for me personally were around 2003-2006. There were some years post 2006 where my achievements were better than 2003-2006 but I was operating in a less healthy mating environment. I remember having a conversation in 2012 with my uncle compared the mating environment of 2011-2012 to 2005. I noticed a degradation in the mating environment from 2005 to 2011.

At any time, the worst experiences I've had were while using either dating websites in 2000s or swipe apps in 2010s. Most men are going to have a better experience with the overall environment if they are using some real life method, preferably one not involving random stranger approaching. Randomly approaching strangers is a tough path to follow and is only recommended because it is better than the app swiping or sliding into DMs route.

As for the best times in the mating environment in more recent history, I think they happened in the USA somewhere between 1975-1999. The mating environment hasn't been as good in the 21st Century as the late 20th Century. I wasn't an active participant during those days, as I only got the tail end of it while in high school.

I seem to be finding my stride in the past year or so despite not changing much. Men such pussies nowadays that any guy who even vaguely has his **** together really stands out.

Men are pussies these days. Even 20-30 years ago, approaching strangers in non-bar environments was not all that common. Day game has always been a niche activity. I think more men had the guts to do then. A lot of men in the last 15-20 years have been anesthetized by too much high speed internet porn, masturbation, and processed foods. Eat clean, lift weights, don't watch porn, and don't mbate. Those are activities to help position a man to be a better frame of mind and put out a better vibe for cold approaching. A lot of men can't handle the brutalities of cold approach rejections in part due to their weakened frames from processed foods, porn, and mbate.

 

[Hamurabimbi]

My one year, in the past 15, of being ‘single’ was 18-19. Dating (including Tinder) was super easy. I have heard, anecdotally, from friends, coworker & forums, that it has gotten harder since 20.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

The pandemic did change the mating environment. The mating environment had gotten unhealthier from 2010-2019.

I started participating in the mating environment in the late 1990s while in high school. I'd say the best experiences with the overall mating environment for me personally were around 2003-2006. There were some years post 2006 where my achievements were better than 2003-2006 but I was operating in a less healthy mating environment. I remember having a conversation in 2012 with my uncle compared the mating environment of 2011-2012 to 2005. I noticed a degradation in the mating environment from 2005 to 2011.

At any time, the worst experiences I've had were while using either dating websites in 2000s or swipe apps in 2010s. Most men are going to have a better experience with the overall environment if they are using some real life method, preferably one not involving random stranger approaching. Randomly approaching strangers is a tough path to follow and is only recommended because it is better than the app swiping or sliding into DMs route.

As for the best times in the mating environment in more recent history, I think they happened in the USA somewhere between 1975-1999. The mating environment hasn't been as good in the 21st Century as the late 20th Century. I wasn't an active participant during those days, as I only got the tail end of it while in high school.

I am not old enough to comment on what things were like before the mid 2000s. Was only in high school. But I do believe you. I sometimes get the impression men were pretty cucked in the 90s and early 2000s and we kind of turned it around a bit in the mid/late 00s to early 10s, as that is when the red pill movement kind of had its origins. But I really don't know. It may vary a lot depending on the region.

 

[SW15]

I am not old enough to comment on what things were like before the mid 2000s. Was only in high school. But I do believe you. I sometimes get the impression men were pretty cucked in the 90s and early 2000s and we kind of turned it around a bit in the mid/late 00s to early 10s, as that is when the red pill movement kind of had its origins. But I really don't know. It may vary a lot depending on the region.

1998-2005 is when Mystery and other PUAs were at their height. 2005 is the year that Neil Strauss released "The Game", profiling Mystery and other PUAs. I started reading about seduction and relationships on the internet as a college freshman in 2001-02. I don't think men were cucked during the 1990-2003 any more than 2004-2011. In fact, I think men were likely more cucked in 2004-2011.

Yep, the “hook up” culture of the 2010s is played out. The height of the movement was around 2015-2016 when all it took was a few texts.

the bar and the club seen has been played out since the 2000s.

I think in the next few years things will come around to a more a natural state. I think people are becoming burnt out from the technology. Especially as working from home becomes the norm and the introduction of robots into everyday society people aren’t gonna want to date through the internet.

Most men didn't experience the "hook up culture" of the 2010s. Adult male sexlessness rates climbed in the 2010s. The typical man in the 2010s was either not getting a lot of matches on swipe apps or few responses to messages sent on Match, OkCupid, or PlentyofFish.

I think many men are realizing that the swipe apps are complete garbage but I think too many men have been anesthetized by too much high speed internet porn, masturbation, and processed foods. The ratios on Tinder, Hinge, and Bumble are still heavily in favor of females and are massive sausage fests.

Even most bars are sausage fests.

The majority of fitness classes are 60% women or more, but even that isn't a surefire sign of success. It's a decent use of time to do approaches in fitness classes but it's still difficult to succeed in that avenue even with the numerical advantage.

 

[s74rk]

Thanks everyone for your responses, appreciated. Gonna try and reply to most in a few posts.

That’s an average somewhere between 52 - 104 different on line lays per year. I did the online thing while also in my 30’s (this was back when there was much better variety).

I don’t care what year, demographic or age range, there weren’t *that* many women (in one years time) on the personals worth screwing.

Let me guess… your follow up will allegedly claim that you traveled a lot to get these numbers.

Back in my 30’s (and this was back when it was a man’s market) I recall seeing maybe 30 or so women (the legitimate profiles) worth messaging at most during the year.

Normally, I try to be a little more welcoming to new members. However, this claim of yours and considering the availability (of anyone worth screwing that is) doesn’t add up. I’m just not buying the numbers that you claim

Hey you're totally right in that they all weren't top quality lays. In those years, mid-late 20s, (and still mostly today) I had an extremely high sex drive. Maybe 1/3rd of the lays were definitely "one night only" deals, if you catch my drift. But a good 1/3 of them I found very attractive. In terms of logistics, I really had it amazing: living downtown in this big city with a spare location to smash next to many bars. I didn't travel, but a lot of girls traveled to my city, and I did notice I got a decent amount of foreign students and travelers.

Totally get your skepticism, it's warranted. I do have a very aesthetic profile let's say, good looks, which really was/is everything on these apps. Combine it with a bit of game and great logistics (and sometimes questionable standards on my part) and I assure you my numbers make sense lol. Back in the day people on other forums would take male model pics, make fake accounts, and check the swipe and match rate. They did as good or better than me, similar order of magnitude.

But regardless, numbers don't matter and nobody has to believe me for the discussion to be relevant. What I'm saying is that using the same methods and what not as a few years ago, my results (from mainly online based approach) seem to be 1/10th of what they were.

 

[s74rk]

Most men have noticed a difference for the worse. You're not alone.



The math works, as it results in 72 new sexual partners at an 80% first date lay rate.

My match rate was nowhere near that. Neither was my first date lay rate. My logistics were likely not as good as yours though.



Let's say he got 72 notches in 2018 and 72 notches in 2019, mostly from online. That's possible but rare.

One of the top volume seducers I knew was doing about 40-45 notches a year, mainly from bar approaching in the mid-2010s as a 6'4" white male with an athletic build. He has since gone monogamous and married. Bad idea for him.



Difficult to say what's happening but you're not doing that well with the algorithm.



Let's say he got 72 notches in 2018 and 72 notches in 2019, mostly from online. That's possible.

One of the top volume seducers I knew was doing about 40-45 notches a year, mainly from bar approaching in the mid-2010s as a 6'4" white male with an athletic build. He has since gone monogamous and married. Bad idea.

@s74rk -- In 2018-2019, what percentage of lays were from swipe app vs. in-person approaching?



This is mainly social hysteria. What do you do for in-person approaching? Do you propose outdoor dates?

To answer a few of your Q's. I remember end of 2018 my notch count was 45ish, and I hit just over 110 by December of 2019. Today I am at 174, though I really grinded hard over the last 2.5 years, hence the frustration at how much harder this has become.

I don't approach in person. I found a pretty extreme and well-working niche as a 'pretty boy' with business acumen/worldly experience, coupled with amazing logistics. My logistics did get a bit worse 2 years ago, but I didn't think to mention this because I only moved about 3km further from the city center. Maybe location is a really big deal.

To describe the process which I've repeated many times. Match, chat 3-5 messages, tell them we should hangout / get a drink, get number and/or snap. Texting is mostly logistics, set up date at bar right next to my old apartment. Ideally do this within a day or 2 while you're "fresh" in their mind; and whenever I was unsure about a chick I would double-book within 60 mins of the first potential flake.

At bar, have one drink each, chat anywhere from 30 - 90 mins typically. Then as the glasses are getting empty I tell 'em "Hey you should come check out X, I'm just around the corner" (something personal that's cool, related to my work, which I offer to show them at my place). Again, it's all pre-selected, and on the drink date I'm mostly building comfort, doing some DHV stories, etc. If I get them comfortable, and they see that I'm articulate and smart and not just good looking, and they've traveled to the bar to see me... It's really a wrap 80%+ of the time. Of the 20% misses, I would say 10% just don't work (something goes wrong on either end / sometimes you'll just never know), and the other 10% they're on their period and we meet up and close quickly on the day 2 the following week.

I stopped doing in-person approaches in 2016ish. Environment was getting worse, pre-selection wasn't there, and I just didn't enjoy it. I paid my dues though, started with it back in 2010 and racked up 100s of approaches. But online has just been better for me in every single way. It's not even like the girlfriends I met in person vs. online had a big difference, they're all western women with very similar issues that come out after a year+ of dating (though that's another thread). Plus when I walk into a bar/club venue, there's just less chicks I'll be interested in that are available, vs swiping through a large pool, and having mutual matches be pre-selected.

 

[SW15]

To answer a few of your Q's. I remember end of 2018 my notch count was 45ish, and I hit just over 110 by December of 2019. Today I am at 174, though I really grinded hard over the last 2.5 years, hence the frustration at how much harder this has become.

174 is a solid notch count. You're doing well. The typical man gets around a 10 lifetime notch count. That's because the typical male settles into some LTR for 10-15 years and doesn't cheat, therefore slowing his notch count pace.

I think some sort of blended average of notch and sex frequency count is a better assessment of how talented a man is at seduction and relationships.

To describe the process which I've repeated many times. Match, chat 3-5 messages, tell them we should hangout / get a drink, get number and/or snap. Texting is mostly logistics, set up date at bar right next to my old apartment. Ideally do this within a day or 2 while you're "fresh" in their mind; and whenever I was unsure about a chick I would double-book within 60 mins of the first potential flake.

At bar, have one drink each, chat anywhere from 30 - 90 mins typically. Then as the glasses are getting empty I tell 'em "Hey you should come check out X, I'm just around the corner" (something personal that's cool, related to my work, which I offer to show them at my place). Again, it's all pre-selected, and on the drink date I'm mostly building comfort, doing some DHV stories, etc. If I get them comfortable, and they see that I'm articulate and smart and not just good looking, and they've traveled to the bar to see me... It's really a wrap 80%+ of the time. Of the 20% misses, I would say 10% just don't work (something goes wrong on either end / sometimes you'll just never know), and the other 10% they're on their period and we meet up and close quickly on the day 2 the following week.

That's a solid process from getting from the initial match to the bang. Your logistics + your looks were key factors in getting the bangs, though you have game with extending the invite to your place.

I don't approach in person. I found a pretty extreme and well-working niche as a 'pretty boy' with business acumen/worldly experience, coupled with amazing logistics. My logistics did get a bit worse 2 years ago, but I didn't think to mention this because I only moved about 3km further from the city center. Maybe location is a really big deal.

I stopped doing in-person approaches in 2016ish. Environment was getting worse, pre-selection wasn't there, and I just didn't enjoy it. I paid my dues though, started with it back in 2010 and racked up 100s of approaches. But online has just been better for me in every single way. It's not even like the girlfriends I met in person vs. online had a big difference, they're all western women with very similar issues that come out after a year+ of dating (though that's another thread). Plus when I walk into a bar/club venue, there's just less chicks I'll be interested in that are available, vs swiping through a large pool, and having mutual matches be pre-selected.

Most men need to approach in person because they are getting shut out on swipe apps. On swipe apps, most men have one or both of the following experiences.

1. Too few matches, leading to too few dates.
2. Too many dates that are "one date, no sex, no second date" variety, regardless of their matching/date volume.

A typical man only gets laid from about 5% of his swipe app dates. And he might have to do around 3-4 dates to get the vagina, not first date vagina like you.

One of the primary reasons to do in-person approaching is because most men lack results on swipe apps. In-person stranger approaching is extremely difficult and often unrewarding. It's better than swipe apps but it is still an unpleasant path to follow.

The fact that you created a system to do well on swipe apps is something most men never have experienced.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

A typical man only gets laid from about 5% of his swipe app dates. And he might have to do around 3-4 dates to get the vagina, not first date vagina like you.

Off the top of my head, that's about $5K per lay, not mentioning the time factor.

The real issue imo is the 5% figure and the lack of proper screening that leads to it. Also, a lack of proper pre-date game that takes a date or two off the 3-4 date figure.

Shows why a system is so important. And now more than ever.

 

[Bokanovsky]

174 is a solid notch count. You're doing well. The typical man gets around a 10 lifetime notch count. That's because the typical male settles into some LTR for 10-15 years and doesn't cheat, therefore slowing his notch count pace.

Numbers mean nothing without taking quality and frequency into account. In my book, a man who has had sex with the same 9 a hundred times is infinitely more successful than someone who's had a hundred one night stands with 4's and 5's. Would you rather eat every meal at the same five star restaurant or get your sustenance from a different trash can every day? You get more variety in the case of the latter but that's not necessarily a good thing.

The fact of the matter is that men who have extremely high notch counts (triple digits) typically bang average and below average girls. You are not going to have sex with hundreds of 8's and 9's no matter how good your game is....unless you are literally a rock star.

 

[s74rk]

@SW15 yeah I hear that, really separated from the pack of friend groups a while ago. The hard part is when I would advise close guy friends on the obvious right course of action (e.g. "drop that cheating *****", "don't let yourself stay in a sex-less relationship", etc) but it falls on deaf ears when you have no sense of abundance and/or you've never encountered red pill topics before.

I don't know the exact statistics, 10 is surprising for men. I know the average girl nowadays is at least 1x of her age, e.g. I'd expect a 25-yr old to have a count of 25 in a major city. So the hypergamy skew distribution is really bad. I don't really have a right to complain, but I definitely do notice the overall trend in things tightening up / getting tougher vs 3 years ago.

Women feel a massive sense of abundance these days due to social media and dating apps and being encouraged and patted on the back by all mainstream media and other institutions. If you guys have ever watched the Fresh and Fit show, they interview girls who conflate their ability to rack up bodies with their ability to have relationships. Unfortunately what they don't understand is that in many cases their "abundance" just means they'll get with some guy like me who's just passing through and doesn't want to commit.

I just don't see things going well or getting much better for most guys these days, regardless of how apps have become worse lately.

 

[DonJuanjr]

Women feel a massive sense of abundance these days due to social media and dating apps and being encouraged and patted on the back by all mainstream media and other institutions. If you guys have ever watched the Fresh and Fit show, they interview girls who conflate their ability to rack up bodies with their ability to have relationships. Unfortunately what they don't understand is that in many cases their "abundance" just means they'll get with some guy like me who's just passing through and doesn't want to commit.

I just don't see things going well or getting much better for most guys these days, regardless of how apps have become worse lately.

Yeah, sucks for guys that aren't experienced enough to capitalize on their faux abundance. Because when 45 comes around these chicks fall back to reality and who wants them then? Until one can level up game/ smv wise, it's a sophie's choice of younger lower smv or older lower smv...I'll take a young fatty who's still bubbly and optimistic over a fit jaded 45 year old that has had double the djcks ran through her.