Handling Confrontation in Public

[thehexman]

I'm afraid that where I live, both would be prosecuted. The state has a monopoly on power, period. No judge would tolerate self-justice. It appears that the "winner" was trying to punish the two guys, and that is not his job. Crimes are to be punished after due process by correctional officers, not by someone self-defending either himself or someone else.

BTW, if you ever feel physically threatened (usually there's a type of escalation beforehand) just pull out your cell and dial emergency. Talk into it in front of them, give descriptions of their clothing etc. Almost nobody would be stupid enought to assault you while you are on the phone with the police.

 

[Mr.Positive]

I'm afraid that where I live, both would be prosecuted. The state has a monopoly on power, period. No judge would tolerate self-justice. It appears that the "winner" was trying to punish the two guys, and that is not his job. Crimes are to be punished after due process by correctional officers, not by someone self-defending either himself or someone else.

BTW, if you ever feel physically threatened (usually there's a type of escalation beforehand) just pull out your cell and dial emergency. Talk into it in front of them, give descriptions of their clothing etc. Almost nobody would be stupid enought to assault you while you are on the phone with the police.

I don't think he was trying to punish the two guys, his job was to protect his woman. The two guys assaulted his woman. When that happens, it's go time. Fighting is an on/off switch. Those guys turned it 'on' when they compromised the safety of his gal.

That being said, fighting is a last resort.

Your tip on using your cell phone is an excellent one. It's best to report these incidents, and the people involved, to the authorities.

 

[thehexman]

Thanks for liking my tip.

Watch the video carefully though. The guy in white turns around hitting the woman on the chest back-handed. The black-yellow guy then attacks white. Black then does not touch black-yellow, but puts out both hands. Black-yellow then attacks black who backs up and falls down. Black yellow turns back to white and keeps on him, putting him down to the ground twice. Black-yellow then turns back to black who has not participated since he fell.

The problem is, the black-yellow probably cannot claim self-defense regarding his behavior toward black, and even his behavior towards white is questionable. Putting him on the ground twice in a row? His girlfriend actually touches him on the shoulder at first, in the fashion of restraining him perhaps, but soon stops that.

Courts look at the facts and what happened. Usually speculation upon the future, i.e. about what might have happened had black-yellow not reacted as he did, is not admissible as court material. Black-yellow would have a hard time proving that danger to life or limb was present, especially as his girlfriend seems to have recovered quite fast.

These are just my two cents on the matter, spoken as an outsider. Two wrongs just don't make a right.

 

[Nip/Tuck]

Quite right. Technically, the winner in that video could be locked up for battery (or sued, or both). The reason is not because they hit his girl instead of him, though. You can defend third parties (at least in my state) the same way you can defend yourself. The reason is because he wasn't defending anyone.

Kicking the crap out of someone just because they put their hand in front of your girlfriend when she's walking and lightly slap her is excessive escalation. Similarly, if someone comes at you and tries to wrestle you and you pull out a knife and stab his heart, that would probably be an excessive escalation. (I've heard that it's almost impossible to use a knife defensively.) The force that you use should be proportionate to the force used against you.

Moreover, defense of self or defense of third parties means DEFENDING, not retaliating. You're only supposed to do it when you're in danger of some kind. Once the offender relents (and you're reasonably convinced that he's no longer a threat), you're not allowed to keep pummelling him, even if he started it. You're supposed to let the courts punish him.

Of course, it's still possible that a jury would be sympathetic and acquit the guy in the video regardless, but his actions really seem like an overreaction to me. As an aspiring DJ, I think it's sickening that some guys are so enslaved to their women that they put themselves in physical and legal trouble just to make themselves look macho in front of some stupid chick.

All he did was touch her. Let it go.

So if you saw a guy do the same thing do a KID or FAMILY MEMBER you would just let it go? Damn people are so whipped these days. The guy wouldn't have gone to jail for assault. You know why? Since he was defending someone who was incapable of defending itself. In this case, the girlfriend. There were two men, who assaulted her. Good Smartian law states that people should help out in case someone needs help. So "technically" the boyfriend defending his girlfriend's saftey is considered self-defense.

 

[bigjohnson]

So if you saw a guy do the same thing do a KID or FAMILY MEMBER you would just let it go? Damn people are so whipped these days. The guy wouldn't have gone to jail for assault. You know why? Since he was defending someone who was incapable of defending itself. In this case, the girlfriend. There were two men, who assaulted her. Good Smartian law states that people should help out in case someone needs help. So "technically" the boyfriend defending his girlfriend's saftey is considered self-defense.

After watching that video a few times I come away with the following observations:

• The original two guys look like they are arguing
• The first guy (light jacket) seems to almost swing his arm into the girl by accident, as part of his "discussion" with the other guy
• The second guy DOES NOTHING but get punched.
• If I had been the second guy, the "hero" would be dead.
• If I had been the first guy I would apologize immediately, but if he persisted, again he has left me no viable alternative to shooting him.
• Final observation: Throwing punches as a first resort is really stupid

The reason is because he wasn't defending anyone.

Exactly, I think it's pretty much uniform across the US but the way a jury might interpret things may vary a lot. When I said "in real and immediate fear of life or limb" it's not just oneself but others as well if you choose, but the threat must be real and must pass the 'average reasonable man" test.

Ultimately whether or not to charge isn't up to the officer, he detains, but other court officers will decide whether and what to charge and that is not dependent on the detain or not choice the officer makes at the scene. For instance a DA could have this video brought to his attention at any time before the statute of limitations runs out.

Also that $50K to defend a killing is a best case scenario and assumes the killing is a very clear cut case of self defense, the deceased doesn't have rich or influential relatives and so on.

That's something to think about even if you don't have a conscience.

That being said, fighting on the street is a last resort. Only fight, when you have nothing to lose. People break bones, lose eyes, get brain damage, shot, stabbed, etc.. in street fights. Street fights are really an all or nothing thing. Either you are all in, or find a way out of it.

If you can't get out of it, or you, or a loved one is in immediate life danger..unleash hell.

This is well said and is something the "I daydream of being a street ninja" people just can't seem to grasp. Choosing to enter a street fight is essentially the same as deciding you have to kill someone. That should never be a trivial choice. Even when it happens to NOT result in a fatality the outcome is likely to be life altering.

If you're not seeking de-escalation you're part of the problem.

Also, even if criminal charges were never pursued against the guy in the video he's potentially open to civil proceedings and it all costs money to defend or settle.

I'm afraid that where I live, both would be prosecuted. The state has a monopoly on power, period. No judge would tolerate self-justice. It appears that the "winner" was trying to punish the two guys, and that is not his job. Crimes are to be punished after due process by correctional officers, not by someone self-defending either himself or someone else.

Actually I think that's a good thing, not specifically but in general. Courts and rule of law are a good thing.

BTW, if you ever feel physically threatened (usually there's a type of escalation beforehand) just pull out your cell and dial emergency. Talk into it in front of them, give descriptions of their clothing etc. Almost nobody would be stupid enought to assault you while you are on the phone with the police.

Good advice.

 

[dietzcoi]

This is a great conversation about physical force and what NOT to do... but...

Still no good answers on what TO do when you are (for example) in Turkey on vacation with your girl and some friends, and as you are walking out of the outdoor restuarant/club, some idiot stops your GF and asks her to dance and asks her for a dancing date the next night.... as if you are not even standing there...then when you attempt to tell him to back off, he then procedes to insult you... and it escalates to the point where you lose control and punch the guy. This did happen to me this past summer and I am lucky the Turkish waiters/bouncers were sympathetic and defused it without calling the police. (The other guy was another tourist, not turkish, luckily)

So, obviously, this was wrong, but don't you guys get sick of people acting like you are not even there and trying to pick up your GF, etc? It's like a battlefield.. I am tired of it and find myself resorting to force more than I would like...

Note this is not about men trying to talk to my GF, but instead about men disrespecting me. I have a few other interesting stories from the last few years if you want.. basically all are about idiots over here trying to pick up my GF with me present, which escalates to me trading insults and/or punches.

These guys are nuts.. I am 6'3" and 205 lbs but they still persist. BTW my GF is Mexican and the European men go nuts over her... she is exotic to them I guess. (Thier blondes aren't enough?)

OK, enough ranting... how about advice on what to do when some idiot acts like you are invisible and gets upset when you point out to him that you are not invisible?

Dietzcoi

 

[bigjohnson]

... and it escalates to the point where you lose control ....

"Well there's your problem!"

If you're participating in the escalation you are already out of control unless it is your goal to provoke a fight. It takes two sides to escalate. It's funny that this sort of discussion always has to be preceded by an assumption that no one is going to escalate "too far".

Someone has to be the adult and defuse the situation.

Move her around you so you are shielding her and walk away, say something firm but polite if you have to.

 

[Obsidian]

i don't have a problem with escalating with words, but swinging first without actually being ATTACKED is stupid and generally illegal. And I still say that whenever you risk too much over a woman, you are falling prey to the matriarchy. Secretly, the woman is thinking (along with the rest of the female species), "Haha, look at what men will do for me. This one is MINE."

 

[dietzcoi]

You have a good point there, but I tend to think of it as not serviing the matriarchy, but instead not putting up with disrespect from other men.

It is a fine line. I know I should not lose control. But if you get pushed enough, almost anyone will lose it. I guess if I was a 275 lbs NFL linebacker, none of these chumps would try to push me?

I assume I am doing something wrong, like big johnson said, I have to be more aware of my surroundings and move to defuse the situation before it escalates.

Easy to say, hard to do. But I will try, if there is a next time. I hope there is not. Got to AVOID the situation instead of reacting to it.

...But there is always some idiot who wants to jump in front of your GF when she is trying to take a picture of you (Another incident -this time in Austria while skiing - which ended in violence when the idiot repeatedly jumped in front of her instead of letting her take the picture -was I wrong to shove a drunk moron who was deliberately blocking her from taking a picture???)

Man, it never ends. There is no shortage of drunken idiots.

I wish I had advice instead of having to ask for it. Thanks to all.

Dietzcoi

 

[Interceptor]

The first guy (light jacket) seems to almost swing his arm into the girl by accident, as part of his "discussion" with the other guy

Negative. The Slap WAS pre meditated. He observes the couple walking then turns and slaps the woman intentionally.

 

[bigjohnson]

Negative. The Slap WAS pre meditated. He observes the couple walking then turns and slaps the woman intentionally.

Nope. Give me a timestamp where the guy in the light colored jacket looks toward the couple. The other guy sees them but unless they have some form of telepathy that doesn't help.

 

[Interceptor]

BJ, at 11 seconds in the white jacket guy clearly sees the couple, and then intentionally looks at the woman and slaps her at about 12 seconds.
He pauses right before the slap, so you know it wasn't an accident.
He sees the couple, then he turns and gauges and slaps the poor woman.

 

[bigjohnson]

At 11 seconds he's still looking straight ahead arms to his sides. At the 12 second boundary he is still looking straight ahead, only part way through the 12th second turning and at the same time raising his shoulder. It looks like he sees her a split second before contact at the beginning of second 13. Also, if it were intentional he could do a lot better than that. He smacks her with his forearm for pity sake.

Finally, watch him from the start, focus just on him and ignore all else. He's a hand waver. As he speaks his arms are all over, he's fidgeting, etc.

Unless he's just groping her or something, which is remotely possible but you can't tell from the video, plus groping would require that he actually saw her in advance I'd think.

Accident, and not a real serious one at that.

If this had happened in a non-redneck city in the US any good lawyer could sue this guy to hell and gone as well as pushing the DA for criminal charges to be lodged.

 

[Interceptor]

Negatory. He sees them. And he fully sees the woman in his sights before he slaps her.
But it's ok, dude. Whatever.

 

[bigjohnson]

I don't see it, but then I thought Rodney King got off light. At the very best it's not definitive, and I know from experience that sometimes things happen. It's impossible to say for sure it was an accident, but for me that conclusion defies the concept of Occam's razor.

My first impression was that it was intentional but the lack of motive nagged at me, so I looked again. and again and again. Eventually I figured out what was deceptive.

As a person I see the two initial cast members as a group, and I clearly see one look over and see the couple and then the other one smacks her. But if you look at the body language of them separately, it looks like dark jacket man is just taken by surprise by the entire thing. Completely a WTH moment for him. Explain to me how striking him was justified legally?

If you watch JUST light shouldered bike jacket boy, you can see he's agitated and an arm waver, and it really looks (after 4-5 careful views focusing on him alone) that he's just an idiot who waved the wrong way.

It almost looks like he's reaching out to get the thrid guys attention and doesn't even see the girl, but the hole in that theory is that I don't see a frame of film where he could see the couple before he starts moving his arm. If the blow was intentional he would have to form the intent before his arm lifts.

Do a vidcap and watch it frame by frame and you'll see what I mean.


But yeah, for purposes of this discussion we can take as given whatever we want and use that as a basis for talking about a hypothetical situation that is illustrated by the video, so reality isn't really relevant anyway.

 

[Interceptor]

BJ, I can see it plain as day. I'm convinced in what I believe I'm seeing there, and that's all that matters to me, buddy.

Thanks.

 

[bigjohnson]

Fair enough, have a look at this:

Early in second 12:

Few frames later:
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh275/reallybigjohnson/1011.jpg

Start of the slap:
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh275/reallybigjohnson/1031.jpg

If you consider where his peripheral vision (not to mention direct vision) falls .... just have a second look. All these frames fall within 1 second of video.


EDIT:

Why doesn't this work?

 

[Kev07]

In case you guys don't know the background for this video, it's pre videotaped by the 2 guy's friends, the point of the video is to randomly slap random people you see, get it on film, and who knows what.

It's actually pretty popular in some of the bad streets of california.

Dietzcoi: in your situation, your girl should be able to tell them off and you can keep walking, i don't see why you even had to get involved.

 

[Phyzzle]

In case you guys don't know the background for this video, it's pre videotaped by the 2 guy's friends, the point of the video is to randomly slap random people you see, get it on film, and who knows what.

Correct. Interceptor has it right.

Besides, is the guy deaf? Why can't he hear people walking behind him?

Why is a deaf man standing on a sidewalk occasionally flailing his hand behind him?

 

[nando]

You have a good point there, but I tend to think of it as not serviing the matriarchy, but instead not putting up with disrespect from other men.

It is a fine line. I know I should not lose control. But if you get pushed enough, almost anyone will lose it. I guess if I was a 275 lbs NFL linebacker, none of these chumps would try to push me?

I assume I am doing something wrong, like big johnson said, I have to be more aware of my surroundings and move to defuse the situation before it escalates.

Easy to say, hard to do. But I will try, if there is a next time. I hope there is not. Got to AVOID the situation instead of reacting to it.

...But there is always some idiot who wants to jump in front of your GF when she is trying to take a picture of you (Another incident -this time in Austria while skiing - which ended in violence when the idiot repeatedly jumped in front of her instead of letting her take the picture -was I wrong to shove a drunk moron who was deliberately blocking her from taking a picture???)

Man, it never ends. There is no shortage of drunken idiots.

I wish I had advice instead of having to ask for it. Thanks to all.

Dietzcoi

Dude can you share more stories of drunken idiots