Had sex and but should i fess up too it?

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...Ah yes, the double standard, comes in and tears all these moral issues to shred. Because at the end of the day none of you are more moral than Francisco or I.....

Oh I'd be careful referencing yourself when mentioning me and morality. :nervous: My concept of morality is just that, my own. I don't follow the societal norm because the masses seem to be self righteous, prejudiced and uptight (IMHO); so I'm a major target of flames.

Anyway, consider yourself forewarned.

 

[AngelusPUA]

Did I say if I was stupid enough to put myself in that situation I would tell? He was going to tell anyway so I made it easier for him.

I don't agree with cheating and he is stupid for having done it, personally I think he shouldn't have told, but I saw it as the best solution to his situation, why?

There is a child involved now if he told today and his GF accepted it and moved on that’s GREAT for the child.

If he told her today and his GF didn't forgave him that’s BAD for the child.

If he didn't tell her and she found out two year down the track that’s VERY BAD for the child.

If he didn't tell her and he let the guilt eat away at his relationship that’s VERY VERY BAD for the child.

So not telling her automatically becomes the worst option in my eyes because I could tell this is the kind of guy with a conscience and the guilt would eat away at him.

You have the balls to tell me that I gave him bad advice? People telling him to keep his mouth shut were giving him bad advice. They are considering only the next few weeks I’m considering the next few years, this guy is guilt was so strong that it would have ruined the relationship and you come here and tell me I made the wrong decision. I made a decision based on all the outcomes and guess what it was the right decision. If he didn’t tell in one year the relationship would have fallen apart.

Maybe you should open your eyes and not only see the blacks and whites; life is not the simple, start looking at the grays in between. Problem with you guys is you have simple minded solutions for all problems in life and when they arise you will automatically give your simple minded answer. You do not consider every outcome and make a decision based on that, no you just hear “cheating” , “should I admit it?” and your simple minded defense mechanism kicks in “NO, never tell on yourself”.

Then you form an opinion about me without having read all my posts “You both can't see the error because you're trained to snitch on yourselves when you do something you regret. OBVIOUSLY, that hasn't worked so far”………. I don’t believe in telling on myself but I do believe that in that guy’s situation it was the smartest possible option and guess what? IT WAS

 

[JonJack]

It has to be stressed that Hoogie felt the need to confess. He is an individual facing a difficult situation that was probably disturbing his thoughts. To some, there is no disturbance. It is clear that there is no question about keeping things a secret and they're perfectly capable of keeping their sanity doing so. For others, it could very well be different and the constant thoughts of this infidelity continues to bug the crap out of them. When an issue becomes a problem, then understanding what kind of person you are and what kind of person you want to be and determining if you have the balls to live up to that image comes into play.

If Hoogie decided that he wants to be a person that accepts his mistakes and confesses it because he deems it important that his wife understands the kind of person he was and he is, then he is perfectly warranted to do so and it wis without a doubt the best course of action there is for him. Most importantly though, as I've stressed before, is handling the outcome of those actions.

A lot of what has been said on going against confessing takes into consideration the 'bad' outcome that is likely to occur. However, if one is to go about their lives constantly choosing the course of action that goes against what they want to be, just because it will bring about an outcome that has the better chance of turning out better, then they're basically living a life that is a lie.

There are numerous possible outcomes with any action that Hoogie might take. He can't possibly know which one will be the best for everyone. What he does know is which action will best display the kind of person he wants to be. Any bad outcomes that come from that will have to be handled when it occurs. There should be no regret because it only 'could' have been better. It's not a certainty that another choice would lead to a better outcome.

In life, people choose what they think is best for them. Some of them will consider kids, profits, difficulty, religion, etc... when making those choices. In the end, they will make their choices and the ones that are not living a lie are the ones that are capable of having no regrets even if things turn out incredibly bad. If you're about to do something, and you tell me that you're gonna regret it if things turn out bad, I'm gonna tell you to not take that action. Now which is more important? The outcome or the conviction of the person taking the action?

 

[grr]

Jon:

I agree with what you said. People can't live, while living a lie. There is a problem with your logic, however regarding the context of this situation: People asking for advice on a self-improvement board like Hoogie, generally don't realize they are very one-sided and patterned in their behavior, especially when it comes to self-sabotage. Self-sabotage is the antithesis of the DJ philosophy. If we were talking about an animal with a lame limb that could never heal that's one thing, but should he not fully control his emotions he may make a rash decision he would regret later. This site is focusing on SELF IMPROVEMENT. Not, self-indulgence. Though, as your text so eloquently displayed onscreen: some is required for sustainability. From my point-of-view Hoogie's conviction to retroactively confess is a monkey on his back (like drug "addiction"). If they just turned around and looked at it straight with face value their lives would be much simpler. The fact he can't decide for himself with _actual_ conviction between the two options shows he does not understand what he is doing so we must give advice that will lead to progress. My bet is he didn't even fully tell her. I bet he had some excuses attached like, "we were drunk, I only stuck it in but I didn't finish", etc.

Francisco:

I was born in Minneapolis I'll take your warning, but maybe you should send me some example posts. Who knows, you could start a following... hehe

I don't follow the societal norm because the masses seem to be self righteous, prejudiced and uptight (IMHO); so I'm a major target of flames.

Birds of a feather... I guess we both figured out that life is a bit easier when you level the playing field instead of holding yourself back like all of these brainwashed sheep. No one can deny a fellow who plays by his own rules, constantly improves, and (hopefully) wins : )

To Angelus:

No, you're wrong.

None of your advice will actually improve him as a human being, so it is not in his best interest. Using the "I was just supporting his decision because he was going to make it anyway" is the cop out most parents used far too often when raising frustrated chumps.

The only reason I'm not completely ignoring this thread out of disgust is the fact I used to think like you do.

You say you're focusing on the end result, but your logic is bullsh.te:

If he didn't tell her and she found out two year down the track that’s VERY BAD for the child.

Why? Because his wife kicks him out over her selfish feelings to the detriment of the kid? She's just as responsible for the kid as he is. Who do you think the kid will blame? What does his wife care what he did 2 years ago? If he didn't do it since, that's what should matter to her. (and psst, probably will be the only thing that matters to her if she's worth keeping, he shouldn't have to confess)

Besides, would she have found out? He never said as much even after you brought up the possibility, so we must assume it wasn't a probability.

If he didn't tell her and he let the guilt eat away at his relationship that’s VERY VERY BAD for the child.

Well yeah. Acting like a child does not help when you try to parent one. I fail to see your logic. You're only encouraging him to be a fvck-up. (no offense Hoogie.)

What's he going to do years down the road when another guy tries to steal her away with the words, "I'll never cheat on you." Maybe that would have taken care of his guilt.

He shouldn't have told her, bottom line. Its about personal responsibility. The possibility fully exists that she knows, now: She never has to suspect him cheating because in the end he'll just tell her about it, or die from the guilt. Yay.

This is a technique that parents developed because they're lazy. "Get the kid to snitch himself out and I don't have to watch over him". This method is stupid because its just sidestepping good advice completely, just like most have sidestepped his obvious issues and the advice that will break the pattern for him. By him doing this retroactively he is painting her a picture where she is lazy in regards to him. And imagine the awkwardness of all those wonderful jokes: (Her: Where were you? Him: Tailpiping your aunt.)

Reality Check: IF he was going to tell her anyway... then Francisco and my advice wouldn't have mattered. Your positive feedback to his already unbalanced opinion just ruined our chance of knowing. As Jon's post indicate, our negative feedback can only fall in the category as good advice, or a bit of perspective from the devil's advocate.

Back to Jon:

I'm no Nazi. Indulge in your child-like vices every now and then, use them where they're needed. But when it comes to important matters one should set them aside so they're not kicking themselves in the ass for years later. You can't fall for his obvious attempt to hide a life he's unhappy with overall by suggesting he take a course of action that leads to happiness in the moment, otherwise how will he improve it in the long run?

Baggage like this will last for years. Its just not worth lugging around for him or her. By facing it in secret from your partner you gain strength & conviction knowing you are sparing your relationship from additional stress.

 

[JonJack]

Jon:

I agree with what you said. People can't live, while living a lie. There is a problem with your logic, however regarding the context of this situation: People asking for advice on a self-improvement board generally don't realize they are bound to false notions that can be changed. If we were talking about an animal with a lame limb that could never heal that's one thing, but should he not fully control his emotions he may make a rash decision he would regret later. This site is focusing on SELF IMPROVEMENT. Not, self-indulgence. Though, as your text so eloquently displayed onscreen: some is required for sustainability. From my point-of-view Hoogie's conviction to retroactively confess is a monkey on his back (like drug "addiction"). If they just turned around and looked at it straight with face value their lives would be much simpler. The fact they can't decide for themselves between the two options shows they do not fully understand each.

Back to Jon:

I'm no Nazi. Indulge in your child-like vices every now and then. But when it comes to important matters one should set them aside so they're not kicking themselves in the ass for years later. You can't fall for his obvious attempt to hide a life he's unhappy with, otherwise how will he improve?

If Hoogie has made a rash decision and he regrets it later on, then he better be able to use that experience and understand himself a little better. It's inherently difficult to give effective advice or advice that will lead someone to the goal that they have in mind. The goal isn't my concern though. It's what the person learns from that entire incident that is important.

However, when I advice a person to just choose the action that you feel is best and take it from there no matter the consequences and outcomes, I don't presume that they'll be able to pull it off the way I envision it in my mind. Most likely regret, doubt, uncertainty, confusion and a general sense of "everything is falling apart" will prevail. The only way for a person to overcome these difficulties in facing problems is by experiencing them and reflecting on them.

But when a person decides to try and face it, they should do it because they feel the need to. Whether it's because they want to be honest or because it's like a monkey on their back doesn't really matter. Then it'll be a decision that was made based on what the person truly felt was the best course for him. If he finds out later that he did it too hastily, good for him. Realization of mistakes will lead to improvement. If he realizes that there were certain things that should have been considered before making a decision, good for him too. It's extremely difficult though for anyone to know what to do until they've experienced and learned from something similar.

 

[AngelusPUA]

The point is he told and it worked out perfectly. If he didn't tell the relationship would have fallen apart because of his guilt (yes because some people have a conscience).

 

[grr]

The goal isn't my concern though. It's what the person learns from that entire incident that is important.

I disagree. I understand that strategy but I think its a strategy employed by the, as Fransisco stated, "self-righteous". To think, you rely on teaching people primarily through trial & error. Unfortunately, bad habits can exceed trial & error's effect. Again, think of drug users. For all we know Hoogie is an attention w h o r e and this is a repeating pattern, etc.

Any sort of personal rapport I could gain with Hoogie is not a priority for me. I don't care the least. This is the Internet. I'm replying here to help save him time, not lead him through bad advice as some trial of learning. The only problem is we have dissent from guys like Angelus and to some extent, you. That's the only barrier, the people here who don't see the value of advice that will statistically save the person the most time.

Angelus gave him advice that could potentially make his life suck, for years. Angelus: Things haven't ended up perfectly, its ambiguous whether his confession will work out. Out of respect for self-fulfilling prophecies I will not give further details of my opinion regarding how this will work out for him. But anyone who's ever been in a LTR could easily name a dozen eventual pitfalls that will crop up from your wife's knowledge that you cheated.

Some people succeed the first time at nearly everything. Ask yourself, what seperates them from you? Its not conscience. Its ability.

Trial & error sucks for life scenarios like this because its inefficient compared to really trying to succeed in the first place!

e.g. In a couple situation: Sure you could go impromptu a girl, but she might not be your type. Taking her to a place she's never been to doing things she's never tried will work on any girl.

Find a method to control your states of mind without outside influence. Why commit to easily avoided failures when you have years of past failures to deduct from! The common factor shared between all of your past failures is..... you! Quit gambling your lives away.

 

[JonJack]

I disagree. I understand that strategy but I think its a strategy employed by the, as Fransisco stated, "self-righteous". Any sort of personal rapport I could gain with Hoogie is not a priority for me. I don't care the least. This is the Internet. I'm replying here to help save him time, not lead him through bad advice as some trial of learning. The only problem is we have dissent from guys like Angelus and to some extent, you. That's the only barrier, the people here who don't see the value from saving time.

Some people succeed the first time at nearly everything. Ask yourself, what seperates them from you?

Find a method to control your states of mind without outside influence! Do not give in to your confusion or you will initially fail at every new task life sends your way! Why commit to easily avoided failures when you have years of past failures to deduct from! The common factor shared between all of your past failures is.....

YOU!

Indeed it is self-righteous. The very definition of it means to be sure of one's own righteousness or, simply put, moralistic. As an individual, I see myself as an incredibly moralistic and righteous person. I can gamble, lie, hurt someone, even kill someone, and I would still see myself as being moralistic and righteous. But I do not expect anyone else to agree with it. They can call me a condemned sinner and I wouldn't care. It's better than feeling I need to apologise for my actions.

Some people do indeed succeed the first time they do things. Maybe they've done tremendous research, had insider and detailed knowledge on the subject, spent more time on the task, just plain lucky, has the connections, etc.... You think I'm not aware of this? And do you think I'm naive enough to believe that all that will guarantee success for anyone that does it?

If I fail, I have no regrets. If I fail, it is a lesson learned. Sometimes there's no lesson to be learned with failure except the lesson that life sometimes throws you some weird and unexpected shyt.

And might I ask you how you plan on saving Hoogie's time? Do you even know what Hoogie wants? If you do, then why is it he's not taking that path? Is it because you have lousy persuasion skills or is it because what you think he wants is actually not what he wants? Maybe he wants something that you deem detrimental. But just because you think it's the wrong choice and a total waste of time, doesn't make it such in his eyes. Maybe he's self-righteous, and you are self-righteous too, however your definitions of what it means to be self-righteous differs.

 

[AngelusPUA]

Angelus gave him advice that could potentially make his life suck, for years.

Oh and you didn't? you gave him advice that would DEFINETLY make him wallow in guilt for the next few years, possibly until the time his relationship falls apart because of said guilt.

For some people it is beneficial to tell on themselves and for others it's not, you can't make a consensus that every single male on the earth is bound to.

 

[grr]

Confessing something so scandalous about oneself shows a sincere lack of self-respect & responsibility, in my opinion. It's simply a bad investment from the standpoint of a well-adjusted individual.

It's like becoming vegan to "save the animals" even though its not very good for YOUR health. I don't have a problem with morals until they start influencing you to sacrifice important things like health or how people percieve your dedication to fidelity.

Also this whole thing was like a slumber party with him feeling guilty over something so trivial, people telling him to do what's right, etc.

So he told her, I hope it works out.

 

[AngelusPUA]

Confessing something so scandalous about oneself shows a sincere lack of self-respect & responsibility, in my opinion. It's simply a bad investment from the standpoint of a well-adjusted individual.

It's like becoming vegan to "save the animals" even though its not very good for YOUR health. I don't have a problem with morals until they start influencing you to sacrifice important things like health or how people percieve your dedication to fidelity.

Also this whole thing was like a slumber party with him feeling guilty over something so trivial, people telling him to do what's right, etc.

So he told her, I hope it works out.

You can be a perfectly healthy Vegan.....

Him feeling guilty over something so trivial, in your opinion cheating is trivial but he obviously has different morals and to him cheating is NOT trivial therefore his guilt was the main factor to consider here.

His guilt would cause so many problems down the track, that in this situation it would be beneficial to tell on himself and get it over with.

 

[ThunderMaverick]

If they just turned around and looked at it straight with face value their lives would be much simpler. The fact he can't decide for himself with _actual_ conviction between the two options shows he does not understand what he is doing so we must give advice that will lead to progress.

This is where talking to people comes in. He's not a sage, not a guru and not Steven Hawking. He's a regular human who makes mistakes. There's nothing wrong with asking for advice. You can make all of the assumptions that you want about trail and error. The fact of the matter is, is if someone's conflicted, just like a diagnosis from one doctor, they'll get a 2nd opinion. Or a 3rd.


Why? Because his wife kicks him out over her selfish feelings to the detriment of the kid? She's just as responsible for the kid as he is. Who do you think the kid will blame? What does his wife care what he did 2 years ago? If he didn't do it since, that's what should matter to her. (and psst, probably will be the only thing that matters to her if she's worth keeping, he shouldn't have to confess)

Besides, would she have found out? He never said as much even after you brought up the possibility, so we must assume it wasn't a probability.

People find out. My mom found out months later that my stepfather was cheating on her. He didn't tell her straight out. People find out. People find out. How much more of a scumbag would he have looked like if he DIDN'T tell and she found out years later. I love my stepdad, but he's a cun.t for doing what he did. I dont' have much respect for him in that department. That's really a damn shame. People find out one way or another.



What's he going to do years down the road when another guy tries to steal her away with the words, "I'll never cheat on you." Maybe that would have taken care of his guilt.

He shouldn't have told her, bottom line. Its about personal responsibility. The possibility fully exists that she knows, now: She never has to suspect him cheating because in the end he'll just tell her about it, or die from the guilt. Yay.


This is a technique that parents developed because they're lazy. "Get the kid to snitch himself out and I don't have to watch over him". This method is stupid because its just sidestepping good advice completely, just like most have sidestepped his obvious issues and the advice that will break the pattern for him. By him doing this retroactively he is painting her a picture where she is lazy in regards to him. And imagine the awkwardness of all those wonderful jokes: (Her: Where were you? Him: Tailpiping your aunt.)


WHAT?! This theory is ridiculous. Personal responsibility is not making the mistake in the first place, and telling someone you LOVE when you do. This is a seriously silly theory. I don't know how to respond to this because it's so absurd. I've been sitting here for minutes trying to think of how to respond. I can't. It doesn't even fit into this argument.


By facing it in secret from your partner you gain strength & conviction knowing you are sparing your relationship from additional stress.

Or without the pain of having a lesson learned, you're free to do whatever you what to do behind your mate's back again and again. You learn nothing and you are free to indulge in your sins. You shouldn't be in a relationship with this kind of mindset. It's not for you.

Hoogie would havel felt worse if he kept silent, despite the gnashing of the teeth here. You can say that was a bad idea, but to be fair that's YOUR belief, not his. Him comming here only solidified what he thought he should do. He listened to plenty of people say not to tell and to always keep his mouth shut "for the good of the relationship" (HA!) he took in into consideration, thought about it and finally made his decision.

 

[ThunderMaverick]

Confessing something so scandalous about oneself shows a sincere lack of self-respect & responsibility, in my opinion. It's simply a bad investment from the standpoint of a well-adjusted individual.

I disagree. It's honest, It's a man "maning up". And I'm sure you'd go to an AA meeting just to tell the alcoholics that they "don't have a problem" and shouldn't talk about it to anyone.

 

[grr]

Why would a man want to avoid hormone-supplying animal products like eggs or dairy? In my opinion if that's true, he's not a healthy man.

People find out. My mom found out months later that my stepfather was cheating on her. He didn't tell her straight out. People find out.

Oh and how did she do that? If you wanted to convince me you should have included the details that matter in regards to your example. What do I care what your Stepdad did? Sounds like he got caught, which was just as stupid as telling her.

WHAT?! This theory is ridiculous. Personal responsibility is not making the mistake in the first place, and telling someone you LOVE when you do. This is a seriously silly theory.

By submitting voluntarily without provocation you're showing you are weak LIKE A WOMAN!! You react more based on your feelings than what is good for your life. REAL MANLY! Good luck with that! "I want to be a GOOD man, so I should CONFESS!" hahahahahahaha, what a crock, that should read more like: "I want to be a pvssy, so I should expose my weakness & dependence!"

Oh and tell someone you love about you cheating for emotional support? Do that for the less important moral issues, people not finding out about something like this should be your priority.

And I'm sure you'd go to an AA meeting just to tell the alcoholics that they "don't have a problem" and shouldn't talk about it to anyone.

You're damn right I would. At least to those crybaby men.

Listen: I got where I was BECAUSE I didn't have someone to help me.

Don't give me your idealistic notions, you obviously haven't had to stare into the abyss, alone, and decide between the hard climb to continued success or the gentle fall into nothingness.

You're obviously secure in your little AFC fortress of solitude thinking that one day your years of loyal service doing the "right" thing will pay out eventually.

I've seen OLDER men in my same situations get babied back to their boyish selves. I'm glad I had an opportunity to pay my dues instead of staying Robin, "The Boy Wonder", forever.

If this wasn't the Internet, there's no way I would give advice like this, but it is the net so we may as well give the honest truth instead of a fascade to improve how we're viewed as individuals. I'm just trying to help the guy change, and won't let some anonymous, and distinctly boyish individuals stop me from giving advice until Hoogie himself decides to, or until they actually have a compelling argument besides, "um, do the right thing, keep behaving how you have been because its worked so far!" Please, it obviously hasn't.

I may be bad at persuading people over the Internet, but that's not my perrogative. My perrogative is to be able to come back to these boards and not have to deal with a bunch of sissies. I come here for ideas to improve my life with, its infested with the above referenced chumps and it's annoying so I may as well brute force these sissies out of here.

 

[AngelusPUA]

Quit while your ahead man, the guy told his GF it worked out it’s a dead subject. Just because you lack the morals this guy has and you would not feel guilt it doesn’t mean that the general consensus for every male on the planet is what you say. In his situation it was best to tell, he told and it worked out fine so take your arguments elsewhere.

The world doesn’t revolve around you and you don’t set down the rules.

 

[grr]

I will not stand down to some boyish AFC named AngelusPUA over the Internet who gives CONDITIONED RESPONSES as advice and has made over 300 posts in less than a month since he registered.

You do not know jack, Angeleus and I'm not giving up these boards to you sissies just because you were raised in matriarchial families or from effeminate fathers.

If some other DJ or moderator comes in and posts something that destroys my argument through words or just by locking the thread then by all means I'll stfu, until then get in line, ya pansy. You've only proven that you have no idea what you're talking about, contradicting yourself all over the place.

Even if my delivery sucks, at least my argument is consistent. I'm not saying there's no room for dissenting view, TM, but I won't allow for dissenting view as a suitable explanation i.e. means to an end. You have to put something better than "let him be". He exposed himself by way of this thread, now he lives with it. Its the same lesson he'll learn from confessing his infidelity to his wife.

You guys are making your choices based on unthinking morality instead of what is actually the best choice for everyone involved, this is why you can't even touch my argument.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Francisco:

I was born in Minneapolis I'll take your warning, but maybe you should send me some example posts. Who knows, you could start a following... hehe
...

Born in MPLS? How did you escape??!!

Here's a couple of thread thread I'm notorious for. I only started one of the threads but they both call into question an individual's idea of morality. And "yes," I do make mention of starting a cult.

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60286&highlight=cult

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54991&highlight=lake

 

[grr]

I didn't escape I was deported! : )

Ahhh that's awesome! I agree with all of your posts in those threads. The 16 years you have on me definately shows loads more refinement, but I'm glad there are others who also rationalize moral dilemmas like any other decision and don't treat the selfless act as a forgone conclusion just because its been hammered into them over and over and over and over. : )

 

[BrokenLeftWing]

ex should stay an ex, and believe me when I say, that she is sexing up other guys, plus why do you want a girl friend for anyway? grow some nuts and knock them around going females chins

 

[ThunderMaverick]

If you two are done licking each other's buttholes then I'll proceed.


Oh and how did she do that? If you wanted to convince me you should have included the details that matter in regards to your example. What do I care what your Stepdad did? Sounds like he got caught, which was just as stupid as telling her.

Oh man.. You're missing the point that he DID get caught. You should care what he did because it's important to the discussion here. My mother (I'm assuming) proably would have been less pissed at him if he told her straight out. The ultimate diss is she had to find out on her own. How do you say it's for the good of the relationship after that? And trust me, you're more than likely not keeping it together after that. She has every right not to trust you. You deserve to get nothing but dumped.

You know WHHHYYY I didn't tell you how he got caught and I never will tell you how he got caught? Because people find out regardless of many things. Bilderberg meetings are suppose to be a secret but people find out. NSA wiretapping and the plan for an "American Union" were suppose to be a secret, but people found out, didn't they? There are so many ways a person can find out that's my point. Sometimes lies will become out of your control.

Hoogie is not lost, nor is he a chump for telling his mistakes. His actions are purely reflective of how he would want to be treated by someone he loved if they made a mistake like that too. Like I said before and will ALWAYS say IF YOU FEEL YOU NEED TO KEEP shit FROM YOUR PARTNER IT GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING A RELATIONSHIP STANDS FOR. But hey! Go ahead and do whatever you want! Just don't be in a relationship if you're not mature enough for it! ^_~

I will not stand down to some boyish AFC named AngelusPUA over the Internet who gives CONDITIONED RESPONSES as advice and has made over 300 posts in less than a month since he registered.

You called "conditioned" I call rational. Tomato ToMAto.



You guys are making your choices based on unthinking morality instead of what is actually the best choice for everyone involved, this is why you can't even touch my argument.

Uh. I made the point that people eventually find out. Again, Hoogies actions were based on how HE would want to be treated and what HE felt was in the best interest. It took him a few days to think about his "untinking" moral actions. Aaaand he just doesn't want to keep secrets. Doing so will only weaken the ties between him and someone he loves, It wouldn't strenghten anything. "Just know whatever I tell you and don't worry about what I don't" is blatant disrespect and you'd be having a fit if your girl did that to you. You proably wouldn't be with them, right? Unthinking morality would be to tell your kid santa clause DOES exist. We're not just touching your argument, we're molesting it. =D