guy at gym is hellbent onme NOT doing squats

[Warboss Alex]

You probably shouldn't do squats at 15. You don't have the overall body strength yet. You'd be better off listening to the PT and do isolation exercises at first.

Yeah, since isolation exercises are the best way to build an overall strength base..

 

[Road Demon]

Hi Ice Cold.

Their is a bigger picture here, than just the short term period of loading of the long bones. I'm not focused on the mechanical loading effect.

What about the other soft conective tissue? Sure the muscle can handle the load, but what about the othe force transmission structures.

What about the neurohormonal response to weight training, the hormones released are potent modifers of gene expression? That the more significant concern IMHO.

Lets not escalate here. Not my point.

My take:

The guy is 15 years old, neither of US are present to supervise him. We don't know his level of physical maturity? He has a personal trainer, so what he might or might not be good? Sounds like he DOES have a good personal trainer who is holding him back.

When we we young, sometimes we overdo and don't have the experience to make the best choices. What happens when the PT is not around? I have trained alot of young U19 athletes, I'm just suggesting that he hold off for a few years till he is 18. We would like to seem him active in the sport of lifting for many decades in his life.

I would suggest an increase in overall level of activity. Doing strength training using body weight as resistance. Doing Track and field events to improve his overall sports coodination. Participating in many sports to find out what he is best at.

He came to this forum becaue he wanted to shoot down the opinion of his personal trainer. Based on the little information that we have, I believe the PT is doing the right thing by holding him back.

 

[Ice Cold]

Road Demon - point taken.

I agree. To the OP:

You can either stick with this guy or find another trainer who can show you how to do squats properly. Doing them alone is risky.

 

[Macca]

Squats??? At 15...what a fricken nutter!!!

And why?

Cos' you'll get a hernia!!!

The holes in your abdomen from where your testicles dropped out when you were a baby are most likely still open...you go doing squats and tissue will most likely escape through those holes and that equals a hernia! Those holes are not likely to be healed over until you're 18.

Lets us all know when see the lump protruding from your belly!

 

[spesmilitis]

Squats??? At 15...what a fricken nutter!!!

And why?

Cos' you'll get a hernia!!!

The holes in your abdomen from where your testicles dropped out when you were a baby are most likely still open...you go doing squats and tissue will most likely escape through those holes and that equals a hernia! Those holes are not likely to be healed over until you're 18.

Lets us all know when see the lump protruding from your belly!

I have never heard of what you are talking about.

 

[Skilla_Staz]

blah blah blah i'm a dirty sl*t, you shouldn't squat, its bad, do sprints instead blah blah blah

During sprints, the force applied to each leg during the initial drive phase of the 100 meter dash has been said to be 6x that of your body weight.

I don't know about you, but when I squat, I sure as hell don't fire off 900lbs of force to each foot.

When running, forces applied to the limbs can be in excess of 6x bodyweight, as opposed to 2x bodyweight when walking.

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1063297


How does lifting cause the growth plates to fuse? From what I understand, the fusing of the "growth plates" is just a natural occurance over time.

 

[Skilla_Staz]

Squats??? At 15...what a fricken nutter!!!

And why?

Cos' you'll get a hernia!!!

The holes in your abdomen from where your testicles dropped out when you were a baby are most likely still open...you go doing squats and tissue will most likely escape through those holes and that equals a hernia! Those holes are not likely to be healed over until you're 18.

Lets us all know when see the lump protruding from your belly!

So what you're saying is, nobody should EVER do squats. To me, the risk of getting an athletic injury such as a hernia is prevalent to an extent no matter what your age. Donovan McNabb got a sports hernia last season. Are you telling me that nobody over the age of 25 should play competetive football because they "might" get a hernia?

I might die tomorrow getting a ride to school. I guess that means I shouldn't ever leave my house. Oh wait, my house could burn down, I guess I should stand outside instead. Oh wait, I might possibly freeze to death.

Catch my drift? Just because there are rare cases of such things happening, doesn't mean you should refrain from the activity all together.

 

[Macca]

Read my post again, please point out where I have said the follow:

* So what you're saying is, nobody should EVER do squats
* Are you telling me that nobody over the age of 25 should play competetive football because they "might" get a hernia?

Squats at his age is asking for a hernia THAT is why his trainer is concerned.

 

[Road Demon]

Hi Skilla_Staz,

Actually I believe you misread what I what I actually posted.

I actually stated that Squats should be the core of any weight training program. If I could only do 2 exercise in the gym I would choose the Squat and the Incline Bench Press, pretty much total body muscle activation.

I suggested that Squats were not appropriate for a 15 year old. I suggest wait until he is 18. I suggested alternative to improve his fitness level though other activities.

I agree with Macca. We don't know much about this young man. His personal trainer is using his GOOD judgement. He has lifetime to lift, what is a few years...till his physical maturation process stabilizes.

The neurohormonal response to weight training exercise and its very significant impact on gene expression profile of 'tissue.'

Think in terms or Growth Hormone, Cortisol, Insulin, IGF, and dihydrotesterone release as result of weight training exercise. These are Potent signal molecules that will remodel tissue.

At 15 his hormones are rapidly changing to begin with...why confusion the situition.

 

[kickureface]

road demon
is there a possible way to add in some space between the plates? like stretch em out or sometihng?
im 17.5 and doing squats and deads, since uhhhh summerish?

 

[spesmilitis]

can you guys back up what you're saying about lifting stunting growth with some scientific research or atleast some scientific theories (by actual scientists)

 

[md3sign]

can you guys back up what you're saying about lifting stunting growth with some scientific research or atleast some scientific theories (by actual scientists)

nope

 

[Warboss Alex]

Spesmilitis, that attitude will get you nowhere in bodybuilding. I don't see any huge, ripped scientists but I see a lot of under/overweight guys in lab coats guzzling pepsi all day.

You won't find studies done on bodybuilders and bodybuilding-related topics because it simply isn't a large enough area of interest. This is why experience always outweighs studies in this sport.. mostly because there aren't any relevant studies.

 

[Skilla_Staz]

Read my post again, please point out where I have said the follow:

* So what you're saying is, nobody should EVER do squats
* Are you telling me that nobody over the age of 25 should play competetive football because they "might" get a hernia?

Squats at his age is asking for a hernia THAT is why his trainer is concerned.

You didn't say those things, but the message of your post was that since he's 15, squatting may cause him to get a hernia. I don't see how his age has anything to do with it, because ANYBODY, no matter what age can get a hernia from squatting either way too much, or improperly. Not just 15 year olds. I was trying to reason with you logically by stating that since ANYBODY could get one, then you're basically saying that NOBODY should squat.

I know you feel that he should wait until he's 18, but are 18 or even 25 year olds any less likely to get a hernia? From what I can tell, no. From what I gathered, this guy isn't even his trainer, it was just some guy in the weight room bugging him.

Actually I believe you misread what I what I actually posted.

No I got it, I just misspoke/typed what I had intended to say. When I put "you shouldnt squat" I meant the kid specifically, not the "you" in general type thing. You said that since the kid is 15, he should do track or other things, which is why I brought up the force when you run thing. It seem to me that full out sprints put more pressure/force on the legs upon impact than squatting, so wouldn't those be WORSE for your growth plates, if that was actually the case?

 

[Macca]

I said squatting as his AGE, 15, is not a good idea! At that age he is more likely to get a hernia then he would at 18,19,20 etc! I didn't say that no-one should do it (why the fvck they want to I'll never know). Please don't paraphrase (incorrectly) my posts as you seem to assume too much. And we all know what assuming does? Makes an ASS of U and ME...don't do it!

Jeez...bloody kids!!!

 

[Throttle]

let's see:

- there's no strong scientific evidence either way

- none of us are there to supervise him

- we have no idea how physically mature he really is

only useful advice: take it slow, take it easy, get the form right, and consider waiting to really push things hard for another year or two. ignore people who say it will rip you apart, but seek out someone who can show you how to perform these exercises correctly

 

[reyalp]

Yao Ming did heavy lifts when he was 15.

</discussion>

 

[spesmilitis]

Here is something to consider: during teenage years, the parts of the bones that grow are the ends.

Anyways, in the teens, doing body weight and weighted body weight exercises seems to be enough (weighted pushups,pullups,dips, explosive bodyweight squats, ab work, sprints), although im not expert. For strength, wrestling works wonders. They are the most of not one of the most explosive/strong/powerful athletes. Short distance track and feild is good too.

 

[Road Demon]

Kickureface...@ 17.5 to answer your question it really depends on a number of factors, the load your are lifting and frequency of training sessions, how physical mature your (ie when did you enter puberty), quality of yor nutrition etc...

I would suggest doing higher rep sets, really focusing on good form. I don't think you need to do 8 sets of squats, perhaps 2-3 sets x 12-15 reps @ a 20 Rep Max (RM) level is a good idea. You have many decades to spend in the sports, so be patient and build a good foundation. Make sure someone who has good form evaluates your form with all exercises.

I believe most of US are in agreement that this young man at 15 should not be doing squats...

I agree with you Skillz Staz 100%

Spesmilitis, you are correct long bone growth occurs at the end of epiphyseal plates...I also agree with your prescription.

What I think many of US are missing is the neurohormonal response to exercise...Growth Hormone, Insulin, DHT, Cortisol are all very potent modulaters of tissue remodeling. How the do your think your muscles increase in size with training? Most of it occurs through hormone signaling. (ok you can argue the mechanical loading of the muscle does effect signal transduction events mediated by the muscle cytoskeleton).

Insulin and Cortisol have intracellular effects mediated through different signal transduction pathways...affecting protein turnover in a cell plus they can also active certain transcription factors to turn/on off certain genes.

GH & DHT work at the level of the DNA by turning on/off certain genes, leading to changes in protien levels.

These signal are all intergrated by the cell. Different tissues do have different effect by the same hormones.

What I was saying is that @ 15 his hormonal status is in state of flux. Their are things that we are not aware of him as an individual. We should be aware that one training modality that works for one population might not be the best approach to use in a different populations. Think about the differences in the the young, the old, the untrained but college aged, the trained, and the elite/pro athlete. Each population is different. We are just begining to understand the differences in these population. What is know is that most studies have used college age individuals as they are easy to find, have the time etc. Bottom line we need to collect more data through well designed studies...

I'm suggesting that a conservative approach is prudent, by telling him to wait. I have trained many under 19 athletes in endurance sports...the ones that are the best are not the young superstars, but the ones who dedicate themselves in patient manner to achive their longterm goals.

Not all scientists drink pepsi in white lab coats. Some can squat 2.6x our BW. Lets not generalize here. We try out best to design good studies with limited money resources. It is not easy to design experiments that take into account all variables...

Yes, us scientists can also learn from the althetes. It gives us ideas to test. Most scientists are VERY open minded by nature.

I suggest you look through the scientific literature. Use Review papers to Start. Read alot. Come up with your own conclusions, but I would encourge your to start with the ideas that have been tested, rather than take and idea out from some forum or some big guy at the gym.

RD

 

[Skilla_Staz]

I said squatting as his AGE, 15, is not a good idea! At that age he is more likely to get a hernia then he would at 18,19,20 etc! I didn't say that no-one should do it (why the fvck they want to I'll never know). Please don't paraphrase (incorrectly) my posts as you seem to assume too much. And we all know what assuming does? Makes an ASS of U and ME...don't do it!

Jeez...bloody kids!!!

I didn't paraphrase, summarize or do anything of the sort with your post.

You said at 15 he is more likely to get a hernia? Says who? I feel your JUST AS LIKELY at any age to get a hernia. I've heard of powerlifters in their 30s getting hernias. I know a kid who got a hernia during track season. You're ALWAYS at risk for an injury during any thing you do, squatting is no exception, however just because he's 15 doesn't mean his risk for getting a hernia is all of a sudden higher than that of somebody twice his age. I don't see where you're getting this "You're 15, so squatting is going to give you a hernia" bull sh*t...

"Why the f*ck they want to i'll never know"...

Are you serious, you don't know why people want to squat? That little sentence alone leads me to believe you have no idea what you're talking about. ASSUMING I understood you correctly on that...