Grade Obama

[BlueAlpha1]

The IDEA behind the ACA was pretty good. The implementation and outcome of it were not.

That is exactly my point on healthcare in a nutshell.

 

[speed dawg]

The IDEA behind the ACA was pretty good. The implementation and outcome of it were not.

The idea of doing SOMETHING about healthcare was what was good. I don't think any of us can deny that the healthcare business was corrupt as h*ll. Admins who can't do basic math, doctors blatantly f*cking people over charging $25 for a tylenol pill, insurance companies who more closely resembled used car salesmen than professionals. Demand for healthcare is just so d*mn high (because we're all terribly unhealthy), that they can do what they want.

However, everything about the ACA specifically was terrible. He took the middle class, who were paying the brunt of the costs, and made it more expensive, and gave free health care to the lower class, who were generally getting it anyway (hospitals cannot turn you away). The math never worked, ever. It was inexplicably stupid. But, he tried, and I give him credit for that.

The only way out of it is to get healthier, and HSAs.

 

[Bible_Belt]

what is actually possible and sustainable.

How much poverty is sustainable, before the unwashed masses storm the Bastille and put heads on sticks? I don't know the answer, but when we cut countless millions of people out of their housing, food, and healthcare, we are going to find out. I can only presume that rich people just want poor people to go away and leave them alone. If you want that, if you ever want to be able to leave your mansion/fortress/prison and mingle with the little people, then you are going to need a system of social services that keep them satiated enough to not want to kill you and take your stuff.

 

[BeExcellent]

In case anybody wants to further reading on the Clinton budget surplus: Look up "1994 Contract with America" in Wikipedia. You'll notice that the major proponents of the Contract with America were derived in large measure from the 1985 State of the Union speech given by none other than Ronald Reagan.

Regarding Healthcare, the Obamacare thing is quite different than the public health concerns. We already have public health apparatus in place to handle that. We also require immunizations for children to attend public schools (and most private schools as well). We have NIH and CDC. So public health is a different animal.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Accusing me of wanting "open borders"

I asked:

"Are you NOT in favor of Trump's immigration plan."

That is not accusing you of wanting open borders. That is me trying to verify what I thought, that you were in favor of Trump's immigration plan.

because you on the far-right hate the man no matter what he does.

Nothing I said indicates I'm on the far right. And nothing indicates I hate the man NO MATTER WHAT he does. I was merely giving you my opinion that the five things you thought were GOOD about Obama's presidency could be seen in another light.

I feel I'm talking to a far-right extremist here.

Again with the right-wing name calling. Why do you think I am "right wing?"

Having a minimum wage of any kind prices low skilled people OUT of the market. This is simple to demonstrate with an understanding of the economic laws of supply and demand. Please read the following carefully:

I do NOT want low skilled people priced out of the market. I would rather they be able to get jobs, improve their skills and make more money. But if their skills are only worth $8 an hour to an employer, but the government forces that employer to pay that worker $10 an hour, that low skilled worker will NOT get a job. I DO NOT LIKE THAT SYSTEM.

PEOPLE WILL LOSE THEIR JOBS because of increases in minimum wages. I do not want people to lose their jobs.

you're just one of those right-wing bomb throwers

Nice. Another right wing dig.

But you are indeed mouthing far right positions like we should abolish the minimum wage entirely.

Your use of the word "mouthing' indicates I'm spitting out rhetoric that I don't understand.

Here are some books that I have read and understood, that indicate a minimum wage is BAD for low skilled workers.

https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Economics-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0465060730/

https://www.amazon.com/Man-Economy-State-Power-Market-ebook/dp/B0022NHOSE

https://www.amazon.com/Economics-Real-People-Introduction-Austrian-ebook/dp/B005O178VO

https://www.amazon.com/Economics-One-Lesson-Shortest-Understand-ebook/dp/B003XT60KO

https://www.amazon.com/Applied-Economics-Thinking-Beyond-Stage-ebook/dp/B007JJXBV0/

In case you don't like to read:

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

How much poverty is sustainable, before the unwashed masses storm the Bastille and put heads on sticks? I don't know the answer, but when we cut countless millions of people out of their housing, food, and healthcare, we are going to find out. I can only presume that rich people just want poor people to go away and leave them alone. If you want that, if you ever want to be able to leave your mansion/fortress/prison and mingle with the little people, then you are going to need a system of social services that keep them satiated enough to not want to kill you and take your stuff.

I'm not rich, I don't have a mansion and I don't want to kill poor people. Trust me, when the gates get stormed, I'll be in the group of rabble.

I was speaking in the abstract, not "what where do we go from here." IDEALLY there would be very little government regulation and most people would pay their health care with cash out of pocket. If people grew up under that kind of environment (and not under the current environment that everybody has a "right" to health care) there wouldn't be so many sick fat people.

I believe that government is the CAUSE of most of our social problems, but that DOES NOT MEAN I believe the solution is to snatch the rug out from everybody.

Getting THERE (ideal situation) from where we are NOW is impossible without killing half the country. I'm not in favor of killing half the country.

From we are now, I wouldn't advocate doing anything differently. I believe the system is so broken, so far gone that any fundamental changes would break it and many will die.

In fact, I believe that will happen anyway. In fact, part of me would like to see a societal collapse on the order of the Roman Empire or France. They don't happen very often.

However, back to my original assertion, HEALTH CARE IS NOT A RIGHT. But we've been told that for a few decades now, everybody BELIEVES IT (whether it's actually possible or not is irrelevant at this point).

But arguing that "health care is a basic right" is different than "we have to give people health care so they don't riot" are two completely different arguments. I agree with the latter, not the former.

As a side note, it's also an excellent long con political marketing plan. Because there are so many people dependent on government services, it virtually guarantees the government (and the people in it with their power and wealth) will continue to survive PRECISELY because of the argument you presented.

1) Government promises FREE SHYTE to everybody for decades.

2) People become utterly dependent on FREE SHYTE.

3) Any argument against FREE SHYTE to the masses is met with: "You hate poor people. You want poor people do die. If you cut off their free shyte they'll kill all the rich people!"

It's like running around in goddamn circles.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

I asked:

"Are you NOT in favor of Trump's immigration plan."

That is not accusing you of wanting open borders. That is me trying to verify what I thought, that you were in favor of Trump's immigration plan.

No, this is accusing me of open borders:

"Boycott of "which" people? The Cubans who are busting their ass to get here? Or all the other immigrants? Are you NOT in favor of Trumps immigration plan? Are YOU supporting open borders?"

Again with the right-wing name calling. Why do you think I am "right wing?"

You put up a caption that called him the worst President in American history. I don't remember anyone I've ever met, including staunch conservatives, taking that position. Even the most conservative posters on this forum who've participated in this thread have ranged from giving him a D to saying my C+ was fair.

I also believe your position on the minimum wage is a far right position, and that the primary people who are would agree with you are cronie capitalists who think corporations are people.

Let me ask you this. Can you find me one conservative in the House or Senate who wants to abolish the minimum wage? Let's see; Trump's most recent position was to raise it to $10 (he said this on Bill O'Reilly 2 months ago.) Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio stated they'd like to keep it $7.25.

Are these all left wing socialists like me?

Having a minimum wage of any kind prices low skilled people OUT of the market. This is simple to demonstrate with an understanding of the economic laws of supply and demand. Please read the following carefully:

I do NOT want low skilled people priced out of the market. I would rather they be able to get jobs, improve their skills and make more money. But if their skills are only worth $8 an hour to an employer, but the government forces that employer to pay that worker $10 an hour, that low skilled worker will NOT get a job. I DO NOT LIKE THAT SYSTEM.

PEOPLE WILL LOSE THEIR JOBS because of increases in minimum wages. I do not want people to lose their jobs.

No, they won't. Your theory only holds water if the CEO of a company making $25 million, outright refuses to make $20 million, and is implored to disperse the other $5 million over his 10,000 employees. Yes, he can refuse and in theory put the lowest earners out of work and replace them with robots. But let's not pretend that most business would have to fire these people to survive. They'd do just fine with wage increases, there would just be slightly less profit for the top earners.

The argument that the price of a hamburger would HAVE TO double or triple if the minimum wage was increased to $10 does not follow. McDonals would not go out of business if the were forced to pay $10 instead of $7.25 and the price of a burger stayed exactly the same. At $20 a pound for beef, their profit margins are so high they'd be able to be able to weather that storm indeed.

The other problem with your theory is that it offers no alternative. No matter what, you're going to have low-skill workers. What you're advocating is paying them a starvation wage that doesn't keep up with inflation, thereby the minimum wage actually decreases every year. A person who made $7.25 ten years ago who still makes $7.25 today has actually had his wages cut because the price of everything has gone up since then.

Keeping this starvation wage as it is also incentivizes people to get on welfare because they have to make up the difference somewhere in order to not be homeless. Would you rather have people working for $7 AND on the dole, or working for $10 and off the dole?

Now, if you too want to learn something, here's one for you:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/articl...ur-story-starts-with-a-lesson-in-minimum-wage

(For the record, I am NOT for a $15 minimum wage.)

 

[Tenacity]

I think his first term was far better than his second, so here are your 5 bullet points.

Final Grade: C+

Bro, I am a Moderate as you know, but I'm going to have to give Obama a grade of 76%, which is a C+ as well.

- He helped implement plans and manage plans to avoid a Great Depression. This is where the BULK of his higher grade is coming from, this is a major, major, major big deal.

- He represented the Office with grace and class, no major bullshyt from him/his family in 8 years. Obama's approval rating is about 57% - 60% as he leaves office, MAINLY due to the "Barack Obama character/personality". The guy and his family are just very "cool" people.

- He killed Osama Bin Laden

That's pretty much it in terms of major good things.


The bad things? Where do I start?

- Obamacare is very inefficient and needs to be updated significantly

- He did nothing to control the debt, it continued to explode under him

- 45 million people on food stamps and an overall increase in Poverty

- Black people are WORSE OFF today and during Obama, than during GW Bush

- Labor force participation never came back and the "new jobs" being created were mainly bullshyt jobs

- The stock market "gains" were mainly a direct result of pseudo-Fed plays to protect Obama

- Race relations are completely horrible

- He did more to support gays than he did to stop the violence in the black community. Despite being the first Black President, what exactly DID HE DO for black people?

- And more and more

If it had not been for him implementing/managing plans to avoid that Great Depression (which was a very SIGNIFICANT WIN), I would have given him a 60% if the Great Depression would have started but stopped soon after, or maybe even a 52% if the Great Depression would have lingered on and on.

For reference though:

- Ronald Reagan I grade a 81%

- GHW Bush I grade a 78%

- Bill Clinton I grade a 80%

- GW Bush I grade a 58% (he was a complete failure as President, don't even get me started on "W")

 

[amazingswayze]

- Black people are WORSE OFF today and during Obama, than during GW Bush

 

[zekko]

Trump has already signed an executive order limiting the effect of Obamacare. If they're going to completely eliminate it, Congress will have to get involved. I'm going to be very curious as to what he intends to "replace" it with, if anything.

Health care may not be a right, but it's certainly one of the biggest challenges facing the country right now. Not sure what the answer is.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Not sure what the answer is.

I think it's bullsh!t that Obamacare can force individuals to participate, per a ridiculous Supreme Court opinion that lumps the individual mandate under the government's power to tax. If I'm sitting here doing nothing, what are they taxing? Breathing? How come healthcare providers can "drop out" of Obamacare if they want to, but people can't? I think that symbolizes the failure of the Democratic Party right now. You can either put corporations first, or people first. There is no having it both ways. Obamacare failed because he tried to make working middle class people pay for it all, and not the insurance companies and healthcare providers. They're the ones with the money...but also all the political clout, so they'll always come out ahead.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

not the insurance companies and healthcare providers. They're the ones with the money...but also all the political clout, so they'll always come out ahead.

This is precisely why I'm holding my breath for whatever Trump is going to cook up. Those dudes (insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, etc) are long con types. My fear is that Trump will only do "window dressing" type stuff and the "moneyed elite" will continue to benefit at the expensive of the increasingly shrinking middle class. The health care problems are deeply structured and extremely complex. Whether or not health care is a "right" people already expect it to be, and Trump is going to have to deal with that. I suspect he'll just end up printing a sh!tton of money to pay for it, digging the U.S. deeper under a pile of debt.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

No, this is accusing me of open borders:

"Boycott of "which" people? The Cubans who are busting their ass to get here? Or all the other immigrants? Are you NOT in favor of Trumps immigration plan? Are YOU supporting open borders?"

Dude, I was not accusing you of wanting open borders. I trying to verify what I THOUGHT your position was, which was that of Trump.

Yes, he can refuse and in theory put the lowest earners out of work and replace them with robots. But let's not pretend that most business would have to fire these people to survive. They'd do just fine with wage increases, there would just be slightly less profit for the top earners.

The problem is that CEO's WON'T decrease their own salary, and they WILL replace workers with robots. They already are.

I'm certain that increasing the minimum wage will INCREASE unemployment. If you choose to believe differently, then that's fine. As you said, most people don't want to admit that increasing minimum wage is a ZERO SUM game, and the people that end up paying the cost are those that need the income the most. And you are also correct that most congress approve of increasing minimum wage, but they do so not because they believe it actually works, but because it gets them votes. They are politicians after all. So is Trump.

Regardless of how you choose to respond to this (if you do) minimum wage WILL increase and low income workers WILL lose their jobs as a result. Robots WILL continue to replace low wage workers.

 

[zekko]

Agree that the insurance and pharmaceutical companies will make sure their interests sre represented. They'll end up with our money no matter what.

I think Obamacare failed because people couldn't agree what to do, so what resulted was a compromised, watered down half measure that was ultimately written by the insurance companies anyway.

 

[BeExcellent]

For the record anyone who thinks doctors as a group are the bad guys has NO idea.

The hospital lobby and the insurance lobby are exponentially more powerful & better capitalized than the AMA or any other physician or practitioner group.

Hospitals are going around offering sweet deals to private practice docs to buy their practices, assume their admin responsibilities and remove the business headaches. Tiny detail they gloss over: the non-compete in the fine print.

Hospitals are buying practices, firing the doctor, suing the doctor if he tries to then see his established patients, and the patients are not allowed to see their long time physician anymore. Then the hospital closes down the practice & forces the patients to go elsewhere & to a new (maybe less experienced because they are cheaper) clinician.

I have two friends this has happened to. Hospitals see patients as $$$$$$$$$$$.

You are not a person to the hospital. You are income.

Didn't Obamacare promise:
-Keep your doctor
-Keep your plan
-Premiums go down
-More choice

All the above are outright falsehoods and were from the jump. And there are many more. The people who wrote the ACA bill actually admitted the bill takes advantage of the unaware and ignorance of the people.

I think competition vis a vis allowing sale of policies across state lines and encouraging additional non-profits into the mix will be beneficial for starters.

 

[Bible_Belt]

anyone who thinks doctors as a group are the bad guys has NO idea.

I have known quite a few doctors, and I completely agree. That was another failing of Obamacare, the misguided punitive measures it took against doctors. The only problem I have with doctors are the ones who crank out phony prescriptions to ghetto pillheads.

One problem that Big Pharma is fighting to maintain is using welfare money to buy what are essentially recreational drugs - Xanax and pain pills - just to get fvcked up for fun. The University of Alabama started drug testing the frats; within a couple of years, they were almost all Xanax addicts, because that was legal. That's what happens on a larger scale when the government cracks down on marijuana and other illegal drug use, and why Big Pharma (and Big Alcohol) are going to fight drug legalization every step of the way. I doubt recreational pill use paid for by taxpayers is going anywhere, either.

 

[Von]

The republicains bombed Obamacare into its present form and they just repelled what they voted for....

The original obamacare was like what you have in Canada.

Personnally I prefer Finnish health care (you have to pay a minimun of money to get in the hospital like 10$ and the doctors can fine you if you waste their time).... it helps to focus on people who really needs health services.

Obama legacy in my opinion:

1. Gentleman and Class
2. Speech
3. Passed laws that took generations in the making (John F Kennedy started advocating Health Care reforms)
4. Diminished the Israel political lobby
5. Showed how much the american political system is going now-where (it started at the entrance of Clintons) ... its always a left-right fight now. One get elected to repel the previous administration etc...

Trump will have to fight to keep his position.

The democrats are on the verge of extinction, the Republicans reign supreme, Trump is a democrat and outsider that managed to win... so he got legitimacy... but the people in the institutions don't really care and Trump promised to destroy them

 

[Tenacity]

The democrats are on the verge of extinction.....

I disagree with you here bro.

Honestly, the demographics in the country are such that NO "conservative" Republican should be winning the White House. The demographics in this country are such TODAY that it completely and utterly favors the Left and the views/stances of the Democrat Party.

There is NO way Donald Trump had any business beating Hillary Clinton. He beat her because the people that would have voted for Hillary, didn't get off their lazy a.sses to go vote. That's the Left for you right there, they sit around bytching about problems......but won't get off their lazy a.sses to go do anything about it.

If The Left turned out to vote like they should, Republicans would have to move to The Left to even begin to compete.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

For the record anyone who thinks doctors as a group are the bad guys has NO idea.

The hospital lobby and the insurance lobby are exponentially more powerful & better capitalized than the AMA or any other physician or practitioner group.

Wasn't always that way. We're at the end of a long con started over a hundred years ago.


http://alertandoriented.com/an-economic-history-of-the-american-health-care-system-part-1/

http://alertandoriented.com/an-economic-history-of-the-american-health-care-system-part-2/

 

[speed dawg]

I disagree with you here bro.

Honestly, the demographics in the country are such that NO "conservative" Republican should be winning the White House. The demographics in this country are such TODAY that it completely and utterly favors the Left and the views/stances of the Democrat Party.

There is NO way Donald Trump had any business beating Hillary Clinton. He beat her because the people that would have voted for Hillary, didn't get off their lazy a.sses to go vote. That's the Left for you right there, they sit around bytching about problems......but won't get off their lazy a.sses to go do anything about it.

If The Left turned out to vote like they should, Republicans would have to move to The Left to even begin to compete.

I agree with you about demographics, but I disagree about leftists sitting at home. This was the highest election turnout ever. Where the left sat on their ass was in dealing with middle America.