Got LJBF'd after first date?

[TooColdUlrick]

Originally posted by Maximus_Decimus
What I did in my situation (the takeaway) versus the original advice I offered to Diligentsd is different because I knew my situation 100% throughly whereas Diligentsd is missing a lot of details. Hopefully, he will post more details (and exact details) on what happened.

Maximus_Decimus

you missed my point. it doesn't matter why you got LJBF'd...whether she meant it, it was a sh1t test, or she's just wishy washy. if it's within the first couple of dates, the context doesn't matter. she said it. if you start trying to analyze the context, you'll be pulling your hair out.

when you get the LJBF, take control of the situation as a man, and eject.... but be ambiguous about it....don't slam the door, close it and leave it cracked open a little. and don't initiate contact.

at a bare minumum, it tells her point blank you're not AFC, and not desperate, and have other opportunities, unlike 95% of the other 'men' out there.

at the worst, you lose a shot at her puzzy. but who cares, you've got five others you're working on, right? hopefully you're already fukking a chick.

that's why YOU LJBF her first, if you see it coming.

virtually no chick, even one that isn't interested in you, shuns the LJBF you've given her, lightly. you're playing on her deepest insecurity...

"maybe i'm not attractive enough...maybe i'm not smart enough...maybe he's too good for me...i have to prove myself...I AM ATTRACTIVE DAMNIT!!!...he seemed to be interested...what happened?...i'll call him".

or, "ooops... blew it, i better get back to him asap before he starts fukking another chick".

why do you think "bad boys" bag chicks? they treat 'em like ****, or diss 'em. that's what you're doing here, but in a more gentlemanly manner.

if guys LJBF'd chicks more often, the puzzy cometh. yeah, you'll lose out on some chicks that never contact you. but you'll win on a lot more, if you do it the right way.

 

[Diligentsd]

Looks like you guys are having fun with this one. I agree with both Ulric and Maximus. However, I think Maximus brought up a good point with the CONTEXT part of this. My gut is telling me that she is a bit above the 50% IL due to the fact that she is wanting to see me again. Most chicks won't ever call you back if they are not interested. My gut has always been right even when I've tried to overanalyze things to convince myself otherwise.

My problem with first dates is that I have always needed context to make something happen. When a woman provides me with material or material presents itself, I run with it and it always produces positive results. If she doesn't provide me context or the context isn't there, I have a difficult time making it come out of thin air. In clubs I do fine because the context is that the ladies are there to meet guys. At the mall or on the street I have a difficult time because the context isn't there.

When the context isn't there, I revert to the nice guy and do the whole Q&A thing and that's boring. That's the inner game I am still lacking.

Anyhow, she called me today to confirm for Thursday. She is coming over and we're leaving from my place to get a quick bite to eat and do some mini golf. I'll give her this one more date to come around or I'll next her. I didn't give it an honest effort, now I will. It's not a big deal to me if it doesn't work out, just a learning experience.

I have a good supply in the pipeline, but she is a top seed at this point. Let me know what you guys think about my plan and any suggestions about "creating context". Which is the real problem here.

Thanks

 

[Diligentsd]

Conversating about things that put a woman in that state where they get all tingly. It's not easy breaking the ice with it unless she provides some material for me to move in. I'm developing the C&F a bit but it's not ingrained into me yet.

 

[Omni]

Originally posted by Diligentsd
I'll give her this one more date to come around or I'll next her

She already LJBF-ed you, so this won't BE a date... which means she pays her own way, and doesn't get any preferential treatment. Be sure your conversation with her includes all the fun plans you've got coming up, some of which should be with other women.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

The problem I see with the logic being offered here is that a guy's response to a LJBF rejection (and that's what it is, a rejection) is to determine whether or not she was 'really' interested (i.e a sh!t test) or she meant it as an exit strategy. In either case the default should be a takeaway. The part I struggle with is this determining her actual IL.

Women have used the LJBF rejection for a hundred years because it serves an ego preservation function for her. To a greater or lesser degree, women require attention and the more they have of it the more affirmation they experience, both personally and socially. The LJBF rejection has classically ensured that a woman can reject a man yet still maintain his previous attention. It also puts the responsibility for the rejection back on his shoulders since, should he decline the 'offer of friendship', he is then responsible for entertaining this friendship. This of course has the potential to backfire on women these days since the standard AFC will accept an LJBF rejection in the mistaken hope of 'proving' himself worthy of her intimacy by being the perfect 'surrogate boyfriend' - fulfiling all her attention and loyalty prerequisites with no expectation of reciprocating her own intimacy. The LJBF rejection also serves as an ego preservation for her in that having offered the false olive branch of 'friendship' to him in her rejection she also can sleep that night knowing that she (and any of her peers) wont think any less of herself. Afterall, she offered to be friends, right? She is excused from any feelings of personal guilt or any responsibilities for his feelings if she still wants to remain amiable with him.

The difficulty I have in questioning the veracity of an LJBF, wondering if she was 'for real' or not is it still keeps her in a position of control. I think the default response should be to assume she is serious and take it as a rejection (and her loss) ergo, you remove the reinforcer - attention. Up until the point you made an approach for her intimacy she was enjoying the benefit of your attentions. After an LJBF response her latent intent is to keep that reinforcer of attention. Do not reward her for this disingenuous response, she will only use it on you again or with another guy in a similar situation since it was reinforced the last time this circumstance was experienced. And should the next fellow reinforce it further she will internalize this as her standard response.

Obviously the best way to enact this is to use a takeaway and turn down her LJBF. An outright refusal of her psuedo-friendship offer would be ideal, but not always possible given social settings, however a takeaway is always warranted. The problem I see with doubting her intent with the LJBF is that, most women, whether serious or not in their LJBF rejection, will almost always follow up with some kind of communication when you do remove your previous attentions. This was a previous reinforcer to her and like most animals when faced with a behavioral extinction, she will attempt to re-establish that reward. This is why if you do end up cutting all contact with her she will have a tendency to pursue - and depending on the individual sometimes more actively pursue - your attention, even if she has no intent of becoming intimate with a guy. Women do this in an effort to maintain self-affirmation (i.e. she wants to verify everything is 'OK' between you and her in an email or IM) after a rejection.

The problem is when a guy begins to doubt her seriousness in her rejection when this occurs. We always read guys on this forum state that a fellow ought to "stick to his guns" in situations of rejection and this becomes more difficult when she confuses him with an unexpected burst of spontaneous attention. It's the stripper effect only more personal. Guys will spend small fortunes on lapdances at the strip club because it provides him with something he's not ordinarily accustomed to - spontaneous feminine attention. When a woman does a follow up to a LJBF rejection after a takeaway the reaction is similar for men. Maybe she does actually like him afterall? Maybe he does have a shot with the stripper in his lap, she's giving him confusing signals in either instance.

I'm sure that there are occasions and ciircumstances where a woman will reconsider (and fvck) a guy she LJBFed, but these situations are far too rare to use as predicting factors, especially considering the subtle evaluations needed to judge her actual IL after an LJBF, I can't endorse attempting to reframe her initial impressions. The cases (such as MAXIMUS') are the exception to a rule. And even in the event of successfully closing with a former LJBF it still serves her attention need and reinforces that behavior, even if just in part.

 

[Tao of Steve]

A long time ago, on this board, LJBF was also known as the 'kiss of death'. LJBF is ******** for 'I am not attracted to you, you did not demonstrate your worth as a dominate male, and you are socially a level below me'.

My advice would be 'NEXT". If you go out with this girl, you are engaging in the behaviour of a low status male. You are agreeing with her, and accepting her framing of you in this way. By giving you the kiss of death, she assumed that you want her, but she is not interested in you. She decided on the nature of the relationship, and dis-qaulified you, and by calling her, you are accepting her dominance and taking the social role of the submissive male.

If you do contact her, a short email telling her that there was no 'spark', and that it should be left at that (wish her luck so as not to appear hurt) and then on to the next pearl.

 

[TooColdUlrick]

Originally posted by Maximus_Decimus
TooColdUlrick, I agree with everything you said above ... it is very good information. However, could you clarify your position on context when dealing with women?

Maximus_Decimus

the context doesn't matter...that's my point. she said it. eject.

she's defining the "relationship", which is bad. would you respond to a chick's online ad who says point blank, "friends first"?

same deal here.

 

[MindOverMatter]

why even respond if you're not interested in being just friends? the time you waste trying to make this girl like you in that sense (and it wont happen), could be better spend meeting other girls. you can't win all of them man, and there is no shame in chalking up a loss then meeting 3 girls the next day.

my advice, don't bother trying to figure out a response and just move on. it was one date, you didn't have chemistry, get over yourself, don't waste anymore time with her, and keep meeting women.

peace.

 

[Lost In Translation]

^^^ my advice

Tao of Steve
A long time ago, on this board, LJBF was also known as the 'kiss of death'. LJBF is ******** for 'I am not attracted to you, you did not demonstrate your worth as a dominate male, and you are socially a level below me'.

My advice would be 'NEXT". If you go out with this girl, you are engaging in the behaviour of a low status male. You are agreeing with her, and accepting her framing of you in this way. By giving you the kiss of death, she assumed that you want her, but she is not interested in you. She decided on the nature of the relationship, and dis-qaulified you, and by calling her, you are accepting her dominance and taking the social role of the submissive male.

^ thats what i would be thinking


Lost In Translation

**AUSTRALIAN STREET PIMP**

 

[rocco]

what is a "takeaway"?

 

[TooColdUlrick]

^^^take yourself away. eject.

 

[TooColdUlrick]

Originally posted by Maximus_Decimus
I ask you this because for me, context is extremely important when I deal with chicks. For example, if I am escalating, "no" and similar objections will not stop me if she is not putting up resistance (assuming she isn't drunk). For me, context may override what she says and sometimes, it is a better indicator of what she means.


http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.seduction.fast/tree/browse_frm/thread/9358a6abcc7b2a73/089060c1a30da027

Maximus_Decimus

that's totally different than getting an LJBF, which is THE worst thing.

there's at least a 90% chance she's saying, 'get lost'. you know it too. why waste your time?

this thread wouldn't have even been posted if the original poster had four or five other "A Leads" going on.

i got a mild LJBF the other day from a myspace chick. i don't intend to contact her again, because i have 10 others in my inbox.

 

[DJDamage]

Originally posted by Blue Phoenix
That was amazing man!

I Agree this thread and this Post by Tomassi should be stickied somewhere, it will cut down on all the traffic of newbies coming in and asking what the hell does "Lets Just be Friends" means?!

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Thanks for the props gentlemen. I really learn more from reading the individual experiences of guys on this forum and apply what I know of behavioral, evolutionary and personality psychology to what's going on. I did a follow up to this thread here if you're interested:

LJBF Followup

Who do I contact to get an article published on the sosuave main site?

 

[TooColdUlrick]

Originally posted by Maximus_Decimus
In other words, you're saying among all the different objections a woman can give you, LJBF ranks as one of the most severe objections a woman could give you. Good stuff TooColdUlrick.



Heh, this is one of the best threads I've seen on SoSuave in a long time, especially the depth that this thread goes into.

Maximus_Decimus

yes, this is a good thread...a great one actually. a lot of great experience from us guys on this matter. indeed, i do think the LJBF is the worse thing a chick can say. for one thing, she's assuming you were interested in her in that way, in the first place.

ok, she's a chick, but the nerve. right?

ok, you're a guy and you do want her panties. nevertheless, it's like (to yourself)... "okay, fvck you...get another sap to be your friend"


90% of the time, she's saying "go away". 90% of guys play along, HOPING they'll still get the pvssy. waste of time!

LJBF is so powerful that it's irresistible sometimes, NOT to do it to her first! if you do, you just jacked her up, whether she has high IL or not! for you guys that have, or can get, a good stream of chicks in the pipeline...start LJBF'ing chicks and see what happens. do it the right way though.

the psychology behind doing this to a chick...i love it.

1) it totally turns the tables on her. and you're just doing to her what she does to 5 guys a week. ha! lol.

2) she never hears THAT from a guy. and you set yourself up as the prize, most definitely. you are now a challenge.

3) she is going to be thinking about that LJBF you just gave her...over and over and over. positively, negatively, whatever...you will be in her head.

4) you have ballz. you have other opportunities. you have the ability to turn down chicks. again, that little hamster wheel in her head will be on crack.


this works esp well with hot chicks, as has been said before here, i'm sure. you could shoot yourself in the foot, but who cares if you have other opportunities on the table?

from my experience, i have a rock-solid rule:

i get an LJBF, i'm gone. period. i will never initiate contact again.

 

[KingRich]

yes, this is a good thread...a great one actually. a lot of great experience from us guys on this matter. indeed, i do think the LJBF is the worse thing a chick can say. for one thing, she's assuming you were interested in her in that way, in the first place.

ok, she's a chick, but the nerve. right?

ok, you're a guy and you do want her panties. nevertheless, it's like (to yourself)... "okay, fvck you...get another sap to be your friend"


90% of the time, she's saying "go away". 90% of guys play along, HOPING they'll still get the pvssy. waste of time!

LJBF is so powerful that it's irresistible sometimes, NOT to do it to her first! if you do, you just jacked her up, whether she has high IL or not! for you guys that have, or can get, a good stream of chicks in the pipeline...start LJBF'ing chicks and see what happens. do it the right way though.

the psychology behind doing this to a chick...i love it.

1) it totally turns the tables on her. and you're just doing to her what she does to 5 guys a week. ha! lol.

2) she never hears THAT from a guy. and you set yourself up as the prize, most definitely. you are now a challenge.

3) she is going to be thinking about that LJBF you just gave her...over and over and over. positively, negatively, whatever...you will be in her head.

4) you have ballz. you have other opportunities. you have the ability to turn down chicks. again, that little hamster wheel in her head will be on crack.


this works esp well with hot chicks, as has been said before here, i'm sure. you could shoot yourself in the foot, but who cares if you have other opportunities on the table?

from my experience, i have a rock-solid rule:

i get an LJBF, i'm gone. period. i will never initiate contact again.

I just tried this last Sunday with this chick I was dating but on the verge of flaking.:nono: Best part is was that it was by text so she can read it over and over again...No response yet, so I'll have to let you know the results over the next couple of weeks....

 

[guru1000]

This is interesting how a girl would LJBF after a first date.

To me that does not seem logical. Think about it. You just met this girl and had 1 date. Does this girl not have any friends that she needs to LJBF you after one date? I doubt that. If the girl was not interested, she would not return your phone call.

I know women love gay guys because they don't feel threatened. Unless you showed a huge feminine side to you , I doubt she would LJBF you. It seems logical if you acted like a MAN and she LJBF's you, she has alterior motives. Those motives certainly do not include being your friend after an initial meeting.

Only if you had mutual friends, can LJBF be taken seriously.

You really have to lay out the whole scenario from A-Z to give a more accurate analysis.

 

[JackPrescott]

So, I meet this girl for a first date. She's independent, intelligent, and quite attractive. There was great conversation a little kino, but I didn't kiss close her at the end of the date.

Anyhow, I call her and leave her a voicemail asking what her schedule looks like the following week. She calls back the next day and leaves me a voicemail saying Tue and Thur is open, and that she had a great time, great convo, i'm real down to earth, blah blah blah... Then the "but" came out and she said that she wants to keep it on the friendship level.

I didn't really get her going on the emotional level and I wasn't feeling the vibe yet for the kiss close when we parted ways. I haven't called her back yet so I was wondering if you all could give me a few opinions on how to tackle this.

Thanks

Dont bother with this woman anymore. She is not interested in you. Can you imagine a woman telling Mick Jagger that she "Just wants to be friends" She'd have her backstage pass revoked in about 0.2 seconds, and she would be escorted out of the backstage area. The girls that get to hang with the band are the ones who love being naked.

With any woman I allow to hang with me, they KNOW that there are sexual overtones. If they have a problem with that, or my advances, they are instantly "nexted"....My success rate is not 100% but my time is not wasted often.

 

[Leporello]

I will just say that not all girls like it if you're so physically aggressive (touching/kissing) from the outset; at least if you're on an actual date isntead of just meeting ranodmly in a club or whatever. It puts them on the spot and makes them uncomfortable, so they might play it safe and say 'LJBF' if they're less than 100% sure they want to sleep with you..

 

[JackPrescott]

A long time ago, on this board, LJBF was also known as the 'kiss of death'. LJBF is ******** for 'I am not attracted to you, you did not demonstrate your worth as a dominate male, and you are socially a level below me'.

My advice would be 'NEXT". If you go out with this girl, you are engaging in the behaviour of a low status male. You are agreeing with her, and accepting her framing of you in this way. By giving you the kiss of death, she assumed that you want her, but she is not interested in you. She decided on the nature of the relationship, and dis-qaulified you, and by calling her, you are accepting her dominance and taking the social role of the submissive male.

If you do contact her, a short email telling her that there was no 'spark', and that it should be left at that (wish her luck so as not to appear hurt) and then on to the next pearl.

Great Advice. Sexy women who want to be "just friends" are about as attractive as a rotting corpse to me. They do not get my time, drinks, or my energy, via phone calls.