Fukk Buddies and the Value of Sex

[STR8UP]

This is pretty much just par for the course with women, but I thought it would make a good discussion.

I recently began having sex with a female friend. So far so good. Keeping it casual. She throws out little hints about relationships ("I enjoy anal sex but only in a relationship"), etc.

The thing that annoys me is the "We had sex, now you owe me" attitude.

And it isn't like i buy her sh!t or anything, but she sends these texts the next day saying how I "owe her a massage for the great head she gave me". Oh, so the 4 times I made you cvm meant nothing, huh? You got a cramp in your foot from cvmming so hard, but I STILL owe you something?

I'm sure part of it is just her trying to get more face time, but the connotation that she is doing me a favor kind of gets under my skin.

I suppose if you look at it realistically, sex is NOT an even up trade for a woman. It's not about orgasm for orgasm, it's about potential parental investment in the case that the woman should get pregnant.

Of course the chances of that happening are pretty low if you protect yourself, but in the woman's monkey brain that does not make for a mitigating circumstance. She is still giving away value when she has sex without the prospect of gaining resources or some other type of investment from a man.

Now that I have wrapped my brain around the possible reason why a woman would feel this way it makes more sense. Any thoughts?

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

First I read this, and about shoot coffee on my monitors through my nose from laughing,..

("I enjoy anal sex but only in a relationship"), etc.

Then I read this,..

.., it's about potential parental investment in the case that the woman should get pregnant.

and now I'm in tears from laughing so hard at the irony of it.
:crackup:

How's she getting pregnant?

 

[Unbridled_Phoenix]

With one exception, every fvck buddy situation I've ever had ended the same way-too soon. Women cannot have regular sex with a guy without getting feelings for him, and then it gets weird. I can tell when a girl is having sex for fun and when she is doing it to reel me in.

 

[Nutz]

Good thread. I've never really found myself in the FB/FWB realm enough to say anything with certainty. Hell, I don't even know if I'd be able to tell the difference between something casual and a chick who's trying to reel me in. I'll have to remember to revisit this thread someday should I find myself there.

 

[jophil28]

All woman hold the view that they have the winning ticket to Life's Lotto between their legs. Their momma told them so and society reinforces this belief in myriad ways.
When a woman has sex with you for the first time she believes that she has given you a great and valuable GIFT . THis usually happens a few minutes to a few hours later when her brain chemicals and adrenaline have subsided.
However unlike the givers of true generosity who expect nothing in return , that woman who was wriggling and giggling underneath you now transforms that GIFT into a commodity of barter. Now you OWE her, and you will continue to owe her while ever you f*ck her.

How many of us have been on the receiving end of a woman's rage if you dump her a few months later ? As far as she is concerned you have defaulted on an iron clan agreement and she is now a victim of your evil and selfish unwillingness to deliver the life long devotion to which she feels she is entitled..

 

[STR8UP]

From a purely biological standpoint it makes sense that a woman would feel cheated most of the time for not getting something in return for sex. So in that way, yea, it is "doing us a favor".

This would support the theory that all sex has a price. It's the rule of reciprocity at it's best. Woman gives it up with the expectation of getting something MORE in return. Same as the car salesman who buys you a coke with the change out of his own pocket.

The trick here is to make a woman feel like she is getting value without you actually having to cough anything up.

 

[Luthor Rex]

I suppose if you look at it realistically, sex is NOT an even up trade for a woman. It's not about orgasm for orgasm, it's about potential parental investment in the case that the woman should get pregnant.

Of course the chances of that happening are pretty low if you protect yourself, but in the woman's monkey brain that does not make for a mitigating circumstance. She is still giving away value when she has sex without the prospect of gaining resources or some other type of investment from a man.

Now that I have wrapped my brain around the possible reason why a woman would feel this way it makes more sense. Any thoughts?

My thought is that no matter how hard we try Nature (and Darwin) are still pulling our strings.

Mother Nature is holding all of our leashes. We can either follow Nature, or we can be dragged by her. Feminists and AFC's are good examples of those being dragged.

 

[edger]

Never had the awesome luxury of having a f*ck buddy. Have hooked up and had sex an okay amount of times, but never had a f*ck buddy. I'm hoping I find one at least once in this lifetime. It's getting pretty ridiculous.

 

[Interceptor]

All woman hold the view that they have the winning ticket to Life's Lotto between their legs. Their momma told them so and society reinforces this belief in myriad ways.
When a woman has sex with you for the first time she believes that she has given you a great and valuable GIFT . THis usually happens a few minutes to a few hours later when her brain chemicals and adrenaline have subsided.
However unlike the givers or true generosity who expect nothing in return , that woman who was wriggling and giggling underneath you now transforms that GIFT into a commodity of barter. Now you OWE her, and you will continue to owe her while ever you f*ck her.

How many of us have been on the receiving end of a woman's rage if you you dump her a few months later ? As far as she is concerned you have defaulted on an iron clan agreement and she is now a victim of your evil and selfish unwillingness to deliver the life long devotion to which she feels she is entitled..

Well said.

 

[RedPill]

The trick here is to make a woman feel like she is getting value without you actually having to cough anything up.

The intrinsic value you bring to the table is the capacity for her to bask in your identity.

If she ain't feelin' it, then nor will you be feelin' it. Price is what gets discussed in the absence of perceived value.

Sex is only a favor in her mind if she isn't getting perceived value or whatever else she covets from your relationship - whether that's emotional intimacy, mind-blowing orgasmic experiences, or just some good ol' fashioned provisioning. Women ideally would like all of these from the same man. You can't fault her for trying.

If you have no intent of ever giving her the all the carrots, a good course of action is to acknowledge it and turn her idealism into a running joke. Laugh at the absurdity of her attempts to extract more than you're willing to give, and constantly reinforce the idea that she needs to enjoy the qualities that you are bringing to the table for her. She'll either lose interest or campaign for girlfriend of the year.

Either way you win.

 

[Juando]

I got lucky with a really good FB, lasted for years with some breaks interspersed. Had awesome sex while overlapping with a new gf.

The only downside was that she was always a social friend as well and there were some catty jealousy incidents and vibes while I was in a LTR or showed
mucho IL to a girl.

I like the anal sex comment as well, funny. One of these days I should start a thread polling you guys on how you bring up and execute anal.

 

[edger]

Being that I've never had a f*ck buddy, I'm curious as to how a f*ck buddy situation is agreed to on the womans part? How is the whole thing established? My only guess is, at some point, one, or both of you, agree to nothing more, other than strictly being sex partners. I can't imagine a woman adhering to it without considering you a boyfriend or developing strong emotional feelings for you.

 

[STR8UP]

The intrinsic value you bring to the table is the capacity for her to bask in your identity.

If she ain't feelin' it, then nor will you be feelin' it. Price is what gets discussed in the absence of perceived value.

Okay, now we are getting to the meat and potatoes.

Herein lies the problem.

If we were talking about a relationship where you are exploring the potential for a commitment, you have a little more leverage with a woman. If the two of you are both looking at it as a "lets get our rocks off" thing, you are basically looking at each other as a piece of meat. While there is nothing wrong with this, it essentially takes "value" out of the equation.

And the idea that if you give a woman mind-blowing orgasms she will be your love slave forever is utter bullsh!t. In the grand scheme of things your sexual prowess holds very little power over a woman.

So what do we have here? We have a seemingly equal exchange of sex for sex. But since there isn't nearly as much opportunity to create value for yourself in this type of situation, the woman will not usually see it as an equitable exchange.

The only exception to this rule would be where there is a huge discrepancy in the looks department. If the chick is a mudturtle with few options and you are an attractive guy she will see value in your mere presence. But if she is reasonably attractive she can walk into any bar and bat her eyelashes and walk home with any number of men, even very good looking ones, so unless your status is through the roof or something you really don't have much to built in value.

 

[STR8UP]

Being that I've never had a f*ck buddy, I'm curious as to how a f*ck buddy situation is agreed to on the womans part? How is the whole thing established? My only guess is, at some point, one, or both of you, agree to nothing more, other than strictly being sex partners. I can't imagine a woman adhering to it without considering you a boyfriend or developing strong emotional feelings for you.

In this particular situation I have known her for awhile and although we would flirt all the time it was always a given that we weren't really compatible. So when we finally ended up hooking up it was already established that it wasn't going to be anything more than sex.

So although this can (and probably will) go south due to "feelings", we have a not-entirely-unspoken agreement that it's just an "arrangement".

I like the anal sex comment as well, funny. One of these days I should start a thread polling you guys on how you bring up and execute anal.

Hehe....I haven't had a whole lotta luck with any of my approaches (although I have pulled it off), but I have noticed that no less than THREE women have told me that they would be willing to "do that" if we were [insert next level of relationship here].

In other words, this isn't the first chick who has made it known that if they got an official relationship/wedding ring she would be willing to do it. Quite a bargaining chip, huh? I don't need it that bad baby.....

 

[Aenigma]

Anal? Just get her really drunk. Chicks will do anything for you if they have a high interest level and they're drunk. Hell chicks with a high enough IL will do anything for you sober- the trick is getting, and maintaining, the IL at that level.

This might be hard for alot of guys to believe- but you don't have to have IL maxed out to have sex with a girl- you just need a minimally acceptable IL. When IL is maxed out you start seeing really crazy stuff- hiding in your closet when your wife comes home, flying across the country just to bone you, hoing herself out for cash- and giving it to you- pretty much anything. Like I said- the trick is getting her to that IL and maintaining it there.

 

[Juando]

Being that I've never had a f*ck buddy, I'm curious as to how a f*ck buddy situation is agreed to on the womans part? How is the whole thing established? My only guess is, at some point, one, or both of you, agree to nothing more, other than strictly being sex partners. I can't imagine a woman adhering to it without considering you a boyfriend or developing strong emotional feelings for you.

I my situation, she had a bf who was my buddy, that's how I met her.
He left her and left town.
Oddly she and I fought, pretty intensely from the moment we met, disagreed about everything. So when we were finally alone, we found that the conflict was intense but not hostile and we actually liked each other in spite of the sparks. I know it sounds odd, but transitioning from duking it out to fukking was pretty seamless and the chemistry/conflict made for pretty good sex, discharging the emotions.

We did not even have to talk about it, we knew were not gf/bf material and we dispassionately watched as each other went through other folks.
Some of it was pretty funny, like when some guy would start to get into her and tell her she could not sleep with me any more, but she would drag it out and talk about "arrangements". Once I stayed with her for two or three months and her new bf caused her to shoo me out but then she would come "visit" me.
I never got attached to her. She did get attached to me in some ways but almost always kept it in check except for times she got critical about some girl she could see I was into. No big deal for me but sometimes my girl would be bugged by it.

We finally dropped it when I got into a serious LTR and now we're just friends. Not a bad run.

 

[mrRuckus]

Being that I've never had a f*ck buddy, I'm curious as to how a f*ck buddy situation is agreed to on the womans part? How is the whole thing established? My only guess is, at some point, one, or both of you, agree to nothing more, other than strictly being sex partners.

I dunno if there's every really agreement. I'll tell about 3 of the times i've had a fvck buddy.

1. In college i just started doing some girl that had a boyfriend at another school. It just never came up. We never discussed anything. We just did it.

2. A girl broke up with me but we just kept having sex. We actually broke up 4 times (back in the day when i was an idiot and would get back together with a girl) and each time we just kept having sex. Even after the last time, but i just started saying no because i was sick of her in general. It's been a while now but for about 2-3 years i'd get a text every few months (when she'd break up with a dude or whatever). "Maybe sexy time would be a good idea." It feels good telling her 'no' now.

3. Started seeing a girl. Started having sex. I never treated her like a gf or was too affectionate and was never really interested. She just never brought anything more up. At some point she tells me out of the blue "There's a ladder discrepency in your favor." 'How so?' "I have sex with you without demanding a relationship." (laddertheory.com to understand that) I think it was fairly obvious to both of us that that i wasn't really interested, but she wasn't getting anything from elsewhere. I don't touch her anymore but we're still friends. Recently i was drunk and she was staying over to avoid driving and we started to hook up and i caught myself and stopped. So yeah, find yourself a fvck buddy by finding a chick who has nothing else going on that you don't give a damn about while she realizes it

 

[ketostix]

If we were talking about a relationship where you are exploring the potential for a commitment, you have a little more leverage with a woman. If the two of you are both looking at it as a "lets get our rocks off" thing, you are basically looking at each other as a piece of meat. While there is nothing wrong with this, it essentially takes "value" out of the equation.

Well at first I didn't totally agree that women don't really see sex as an equal exchange because in order to have sex with a woman generally she has to see you as valuable enough. In other words, she's not going to just have sex with any guy just for the sake of having sex. She doesn't have to. I looked at as women are always trying to take an advantage even if they aren't offering sex. But here I think you are on to something. As I've said before, a woman's leverage is primarily sex and a man's leverage is commitment and devotion. When you hear guys saying they are just going to have sex with all kinds of different girls, it doesn't work that easily. You're probably going to be having sex with a lot of girls that are lower value than you.

And the idea that if you give a woman mind-blowing orgasms she will be your love slave forever is utter bullsh!t. In the grand scheme of things your sexual prowess holds very little power over a woman.

I agree here. I often here guys say if you lay a girl good she will always keep coming back. I think that's baloney and guys that say that don't know what they're talking about.

So what do we have here? We have a seemingly equal exchange of sex for sex. But since there isn't nearly as much opportunity to create value for yourself in this type of situation, the woman will not usually see it as an equitable exchange.

The only exception to this rule would be where there is a huge discrepancy in the looks department. If the chick is a mudturtle with few options and you are an attractive guy she will see value in your mere presence. But if she is reasonably attractive she can walk into any bar and bat her eyelashes and walk home with any number of men, even very good looking ones, so unless your status is through the roof or something you really don't have much to built in value.

You know a lot of times when a guy says he has a FB, what he really has is a casual relationship with unclear objectives. How often do you make it totally clear to the female that it's a FB situation and you are sleeping around. Not too often. And the times it does happen, like you said Str8up, you're much higher value than the girl. My experience has been that women will hookup a few times and no matter how good the sex is if things don't escalate relationship wise, they quickly move on.

Btw, this friend isn't the AW is it Str8?

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Before I throw my hat in the ring here, let me start by relating that the "anal sex in an LTR" proposition is easily one of the most blatant Bait & Switch tactics I've heard of in a while. She knows she can't get any traction without ƒucking you, so she needs to sweeten the deal to get a commitment. Heheh,.."I know you like ƒucking me, but I'll give up the ass if you say I'm your GF".

With Surrogate Boyfriends and LJBF situations I make the comparison that an being a surrogate BF is analogous to being a FB for women. Where a surrogate BF essentially provides all of a woman's emotional needs she isn't getting from the Jerk BF who's ƒucking her, there's no expectation of reciprocating sex or intimacy for the surrogate's support. For a female FB the opposite is true; no reciprocation of emotional attachment for her continued sexuality. So when both the surrogate BF and a female FB try to make that jump into some kind of reciprocal arrangement, they natural response is to withhold the reward (emotional support or sex) that they presume the other person has grown accustomed to and will reset in order to get that same (though now compromised) reward.

As JOPHIL pointed out, society teaches women that their sexuality is a gift or a commodity that is to be exchanged for emotional investment, long term provisioning or goods and services - and ideally all of the above. However that's not to discount women's natural sexual impulses in the right circumstances. They'll still ƒuck the hot guy in Cancun on Spring Break should the opportunity present itself, but that given, this impulse is in conflict with the 'sex-as-gift/commodity' conditioning.

The girl in STR8's situation is one who's given up the gift and then seeks compensation. The other method, which I'm sure we're all familiar with, is pre-qualification for the sex-gift. Now that STR8's girl has demonstrated her sexual availability her concern is that the gift will lose its value as a reward-motivator so she's forced to resort to novel means to get his commitment or disengage from him entirely. Thus anal sex becomes the enticement / reward for that commitment to exclusivity (a dubious prospect at best).

the idea that if you give a woman mind-blowing orgasms she will be your love slave forever is utter bullsh!t. In the grand scheme of things your sexual prowess holds very little power over a woman.

I half agree with this, because I believe this is circumstantial. Personal experience; a very attractive woman on my staff went through this torturous break up with an LDR guy she was seeing in Miami over the last year. The guy was a complete AFC as well, and she had no respect for him from a relationship perspective, but the guy was good looking and good in bed with her. He was "pretty" and the other guys she tried to date when they broke up couldn't compare. Thus, she kept returning to her 'sure thing' until she found another guy who was marginally comparable.

I had a lot of FBs in my 20s, and almost all of them fit this same profile. They'd leave for a while, and after they knew I wasn't concerned with their leaving (as I had many other prospects) they'd come back for sex. I literally had one who'd climb through my bedroom window to ƒuck me in the morning before I'd leave for class when I was in college.

However, I'll repeat this is circumstantial. Good sex and being physically desirable may last for a while, but it's no compensation for a well rounded character. The guy in my example was still a huge AFC (he wanted to do promise rings with her since they we're in an LDR) and eventually that will wear down any relationship.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Str8up,
seems you are really getting it together I hit my peak at 37 and had my first FB at that age also,she was 23 and my student (Shame) I have kept her on for most of the rest of my life and into her marriage it was really only when I contracted Yellow Fever that I just didn't bother any more with Caucasian dolls and dropped her...Concurrently with her I have had several more FB's one was a dance partner she was a Naturopath,had this crazy machine like a giant wheel for back therapy you could strap her in and play the most amazing games I used book the last appointment and Bingo,she even used to give me carob chocolate Niggver balls for my daughters...No Edger there is no agreement it just happens,it's unspoken....My latest was a lady who while she was riding her bike past my place,I accidentally ran into while reversing out of my drive way,well she suffered gravel rash on her knees,I took her into the house bathed her wounds,put a boracic lint bandage on.....one thing led to another and I fvucked her silly,she is a Christian(Was a Virgin) looks after her old Mother (Only the really selfish grow old) I could ring her tonight and organise a meet,there have been several more,but I tire....Edger,as you grow older opportunities will come,just learn to recognise them and move quickly