frankel

[backbreaker]

Look lol, I know that i am a minoroity in my interestin in horse racing here and for the most part i dont' talk shop on thsi forum beucase i know that no one really gives a **** lol. and i dont' come here for that anyway and that's fine.

but we are getting to a point now where this horse is trandcending into mainstream history. this seriously may be the best race horse since man of war 100 years ago and i am not exaggerating one bit.

if you get a chance go to youtube and watch his race today the Queen Anne Stakes, it's breathtaking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-t_gbpGZ2k

and the field he beat, is WORLD CLASS. these aren't scrubs. these are the best turf milers on earth and he absolutely decimated them.

if you can watch one of ihs races on TV or live do so. he is supposed to come here to the breeders cup in november to run int he classic which woudl be his first race on dirt. i don't give a **** if he's running on now or laters

as good as zarkava, sea the starts, dubai millinium, miesque, goldikova were at a mile frankel woudl kill all of them.

 

[Gaucho]

Yeh, brilliant race, he destroyed them. So You Think also had a good win and I hope (and there is talk) he will line up against Frankel in his final race before being retired to stud. I would also like to see Frankel travel to Australia and try his hand at the Cox Plate against a couple of top quality horses in More Joyous but particularly against Atlantic Jewel who looks like its going to be special. I hate how European horses can get timeform ratings so high just by racing in their own backyard, yet American/Asian/Australian horses have to travel and give away all the advantages to even get close to European horses ratings. Timeform = bias IMHO. How is Excelebration above So You Think when the former has like 1 group 1 win and the later has 10. Just because he gets flogged by Frankel? Same as Hay List who is well above Rocket Man, yet the later has won the Krisflyer and in Dubai, it doens't add up.

Black Caviar races in a couple days to close out the festival, she has never raced on a slow or heavy track before, let alone the travel, different turf and hills etc that the English tracks have, so it should be interesting. Still can't see her losing though, if they open her up, who knows what she is capable of! A match race between her and Frankel over say 1450m would be absolutely brilliant! And no Bullet Train in there to set the pace and let Frankel sit in its slip stream before getting a free run!

 

[betheman]

Watched the race live on tv in the UK, it was breathtaking, you rarely see horses as classy as this who decimate quality fields. Will be watchign Black Caviar later today too, a similar effort look on the cards, tow supreme horses at the same meeting in the same week.

 

[betheman]

BC just held on in th end, jockey stopped riding and was very nearly caught on the line, although it won, it wasnt anywhere near as impressive as Frankels victory

 

[backbreaker]

black caviar is good but she wants no part of frankel.

but frankels connections are going ultra conservative now. too much at stake.

remember frankel's sire, galielo was in a similar situation where he was undefeated and stretched out in the irish champion stakes and got beat by Fantastic light, then Galileo came to America to run in the breeders cup turf and got beat by fantastic light again and he finished 6th, and his stud value was about cut in half, though in the long run he made up for it as he is in fact a world class sire.

IMHO the JRA or hong kong does not have anything that can stay with Black Caviar she will win those. today was her toughest test.

 

[Gaucho]

BC just held on in th end, jockey stopped riding and was very nearly caught on the line, although it won, it wasnt anywhere near as impressive as Frankels victory

But completely irrelevent. Black Caviar had two muscle tears during the race, travelled, bad ride and still won. Incredible performance. Soul finished 4th and only a length behind her in this race and in Australia, Soul would never have even seen her dust he would be so far behind.

If Frankel travels and can win a big race abroad against top opposition, then I'll give him his dues. Just as Backbreaker says happened to Galileo, the same could well happen to Frankel. Black Caviar has taken the risk and with many things against her, still managed to hold on.

A Black Caviar in form IN Australia, over 1400 or less, I believe would have Frankels number. Of course, in the UK, over a mile, Frankel would beat her. Can't say any is better than the other. Let's also remember Frankel got a bad ride once and was almost beaten, while Black Caviar at home has looked invincible (against just as quality horses as Frankel has raced). You can't judge them based on one race where obviously Frankel had absolutely every advantage.

I just really hope Frankel races So You Think, who is miles ahead of an Excelebration level horse and who is finally hitting some of his old form (now his trainer admits he should have listened to the great Bart Cummings from the get go).

 

[backbreaker]

as you know races usually aren't won by the best horse, best is too subjective anyway.

if frankel and BC raced at 6F or 1200 meters I would give the nod to BC on a natural setting because BC has a higher cruising speed than Frankel does. much higher actually. that's why frankel always has to run with a rabbit in the race so he can have a target/ good pace. Frankel has a gear that goes from 0 to 40 in about 3 strides and that's when he wins his races. If BC's jockey had any clue as to what he was doing he'd push the go button and put some space between them early andm ake him come get him and i don't think he can. not her at least.

anything more than that though i don't see her beating frankel

 

[Gaucho]

Yeh, Black Caviar is a specialist sprinter, anything over 1400 and you would have to give it to Frankel at this point, 1400 would probably be the ultimate test for both of them.

Frankel vs So You Think (now his finally being trained right again) at 2000 would be a mega-race! If Frankel could win that race by 10 lengths, I would give him the 'best horse in the world' tag! Until then, I couldn't split him and Caviar, both are unbeatable at their distances.

Although I'd give a horse that travels to another continent and wins a group 1 mega race much more dues than a horse that doesn't. Without testing yourself against the best in their own backyard, where they hold all the advantages, is like an NBA team playing the entire season and playoffs with home-court advantage. That's at least how I see it.

In the end though, two fine horses and I'll be enjoying any races either of them have this year, because it will probably be the last for both of them, with the 3rd best horse in the world IMO (So You Think) only likely to race once more.

Atlantic Jewel I think will be the next star and I hope so, because the absolute talent we have seen the last couple years has pushed horse racing back up the sports agenda again (just as Usain Bolt did for athletics).

 

[betheman]

But completely irrelevent. Black Caviar had two muscle tears during the race, travelled, bad ride and still won. Incredible performance. Soul finished 4th and only a length behind her in this race and in Australia, Soul would never have even seen her dust he would be so far behind.

If Frankel travels and can win a big race abroad against top opposition, then I'll give him his dues. Just as Backbreaker says happened to Galileo, the same could well happen to Frankel. Black Caviar has taken the risk and with many things against her, still managed to hold on.

A Black Caviar in form IN Australia, over 1400 or less, I believe would have Frankels number. Of course, in the UK, over a mile, Frankel would beat her. Can't say any is better than the other. Let's also remember Frankel got a bad ride once and was almost beaten, while Black Caviar at home has looked invincible (against just as quality horses as Frankel has raced). You can't judge them based on one race where obviously Frankel had absolutely every advantage.

I just really hope Frankel races So You Think, who is miles ahead of an Excelebration level horse and who is finally hitting some of his old form (now his trainer admits he should have listened to the great Bart Cummings from the get go).

Hindsight is a wonderful thing

 

[backbreaker]

I love so you think but he wants no part of frankel at any distance. just not the same cut of horse. he's very good but he is the biggest money burner i have seen in quite a while.

I know american turf horses are usually a cut below the rest of the world beucsae we don't; concentrate on turf horses here, but there is a 3YO here named summer front that is very very very good at a mile. undefeated so far and his last race he might have ran 50 yards the entire race and still won under a wrap. he actually beat barabaro's little brother Maragano in that race.

he will give whoever comes here for the BC a run for their money. he's the best miler prospect i have seen in a while. well at least since Sidney's Candy but they never actually wanted to run Sidney's candy where he belonged

 

[Gaucho]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing

How does hindsight relate in this context? These are all facts.

 

[Gaucho]

I love so you think but he wants no part of frankel at any distance. just not the same cut of horse. he's very good but he is the biggest money burner i have seen in quite a while.

I know american turf horses are usually a cut below the rest of the world beucsae we don't; concentrate on turf horses here, but there is a 3YO here named summer front that is very very very good at a mile. undefeated so far and his last race he might have ran 50 yards the entire race and still won under a wrap. he actually beat barabaro's little brother Maragano in that race.

he will give whoever comes here for the BC a run for their money. he's the best miler prospect i have seen in a while. well at least since Sidney's Candy but they never actually wanted to run Sidney's candy where he belonged

So You Think while being a middle distance horse, then attempted a Melbourne Cup, a huge ask and ran 3rd. 5 Group 1s in Australia, before moving to Europe (and being trained poorly, admittedly by the trainer), then won 5 more Group 1s in Ireland, and the UK. He then was taken to France for the Arc, to Dubai for the World Cup and to America for the Breeders Cup. Compare that for a resume to what Frankel has been doing and there is a monstrous difference. If Frankel travelled and took on all those races, while admittedly being trained poorly (worked way too hard, so hard that he well could have broke according to the trainer) and did so without a loss, then excellent. But until then, Frankel is a horse in cotton wool buds, admittedly though, he does have an excellent running style, a combination of power and stride length, so I don't doubt he is something special, just nowhere near as good as he is being rated if he won't step up to the plate, like all these others horses do. Undefeated record means nothing if you don't test yourself against the worlds best in their own backyard (which was always my criticism of Black Caviar over here before they took her to England. Unfortunately she got injured and had to come back, because they were lining her up for the July Cup and then to either Hong Kong or Japan to win the global sprint challenge).

Do you Americans take a lot of horses to Dubai Backbreaker? Are the tracks similar? Perhaps that could be one for Summer Front down the road if she isn't bred for the turf. Americain sure has done well on turf though given it was bred in the States, winning the Melbourne Cup is one mean feat!

 

[betheman]

How does hindsight relate in this context? These are all facts.

when I originally posted, BC was still sweaty from the race in the winners enclosure, the 'facts' were not all present at that time. also, BC has had similar injuries in the past

 

[backbreaker]

So You Think while being a middle distance horse, then attempted a Melbourne Cup, a huge ask and ran 3rd. 5 Group 1s in Australia, before moving to Europe (and being trained poorly, admittedly by the trainer), then won 5 more Group 1s in Ireland, and the UK. He then was taken to France for the Arc, to Dubai for the World Cup and to America for the Breeders Cup. Compare that for a resume to what Frankel has been doing and there is a monstrous difference. If Frankel travelled and took on all those races, while admittedly being trained poorly (worked way too hard, so hard that he well could have broke according to the trainer) and did so without a loss, then excellent. But until then, Frankel is a horse in cotton wool buds, admittedly though, he does have an excellent running style, a combination of power and stride length, so I don't doubt he is something special, just nowhere near as good as he is being rated if he won't step up to the plate, like all these others horses do. Undefeated record means nothing if you don't test yourself against the worlds best in their own backyard (which was always my criticism of Black Caviar over here before they took her to England. Unfortunately she got injured and had to come back, because they were lining her up for the July Cup and then to either Hong Kong or Japan to win the global sprint challenge).

Do you Americans take a lot of horses to Dubai Backbreaker? Are the tracks similar? Perhaps that could be one for Summer Front down the road if she isn't bred for the turf. Americain sure has done well on turf though given it was bred in the States, winning the Melbourne Cup is one mean feat!

we did before they switched to tapeta. 4 years ago you could cross out all non us horses in dirt races and it was like taking candy from a baby. now with the fake stuff it's a toss up. we send themo ver but they dont' do as well.

now i toss all american horses in tapeta races

 

[Gaucho]

when I originally posted, BC was still sweaty from the race in the winners enclosure, the 'facts' were not all present at that time. also, BC has had similar injuries in the past

Ah k, gottya. Yeh she has had similar injuries, so they reckon she will race again (they were originally talking about retirement after the scare).

Still a disappointment she wasn't healthy to run a proper race and then take on the July Cup and then Asia (with a hopeful meeting against Rocket Man). Back to recover instead now and then taking on the spring carnival in Australia, where she will likely meet some new challengers in Rain Affair and probably her toughest test yet in Atlantic Jewel (if the Jewel doesn't move upto longer distances for good).

 

[backbreaker]

Atlantic jewel is more of a miler IMHO than a sprinter. not the same division really. unless they just went out their way to run against BC

an amped up more joyus is really your best bet to give her any race

 

[Gaucho]

Na, Atlantic Jewels last race before the spell was against Rain Affair, a sprinter, over <1600. But yeh, the plans are to take it longer as it comes to age.

More Joyous def doesn't race the sprint races, so no way it would race Caviar over 1400 or <.

But More Joyous and Atlantic Jewell will definately be the leading 2 candidates in our best middle distance race the Cox plate. Not sure if you ever saw Saintly? He won the Cox plate and the Melbourne Cup, he could win over any distance (sprint or stayer) and he took the best on over every distance. He was my favourite horse, but unfortunately he got injured on his way to the Japan Cup and never recovered.

 

[backbreaker]

more joyous is a sprinter who becuase of BC has drifted to a different division in which she is classy enough to still win races, but she's a dead to rights sprinter IMHO. 6 and a half is right up her ally

 

[Fly By Night]

Haha, excuse my unclassyness, but I just watch basketball

I feel like I would start watching these races if I became a billionaire.

 

[Gaucho]

more joyous is a sprinter who becuase of BC has drifted to a different division in which she is classy enough to still win races, but she's a dead to rights sprinter IMHO. 6 and a half is right up her ally

More Joyous has only ever won 1 group 1 race at 1400 (the absolute upper limit of Black Caviar so far), her other 5-6 group 1 wins have come above that limit. She could race the sprinters, but it appears her best distance is a mile.

Rain Affair is meant to be the next Hay List, the type of horse that just bolts and puts the pressure on the other horses from the get go, a real front runner. Atlantic Jewel ran him down without too much trouble, but your right that the Jewel will likely run further distances, because she also dominated Mosheen (who is a great horse) and looks better at the longer distances (doesn't seem like the Jewel likes to race at such a fast pace from go to finish).

Piero was a 2yo here and is meant to be a freak (but its hard to judge a horse as a 2yo, becomes a completely different league when they step up to a 3yo).

I reckon of all our horses now in Australia, Atlantic Jewel will be the stand-out. Best I've seen in a while (barring Black Caviar of course).