FR:Chic gave me a BJ, started crying.

[ketostix]

I'm a supporter of qualifying women and believe there must be a few good women out there. But honestly I'll admit it, if I even partially qualifed women I would never have any women. You can say "well you're just not a quality enough guy". Nope, I can usually see all these women are unqualified 3 feet away regardless of what I am or am not. The real problem is there are virtually no quality women anymore. And the reason why and why you can't qualify women anyway or at least it's pointless is because part of the social convention is women shall not be qualified because they are above reproach. So what you're really doing is nexting or abstaining from these women. Again the problem is I would be nexting not only all the women available to me but most of the women unavailable to me as well lol. And if guys were being honest with themselves I know 90% of them here are in the same boat although they won't admit it.

 

[jophil28]

I'm a supporter of qualifying women and believe there must be a few good women out there. But honestly I'll admit it, if I even partially qualifed women I would never have any women. You can say "well you're just not a quality enough guy". Nope, I can usually see all these women are unqualified 3 feet away regardless of what I am or am not. The real problem is there are virtually no quality women anymore. And the reason why and why you can't qualify women anyway or at least it's pointless is because part of the social convention is women shall not be qualified because they are above reproach. So what you're really doing is nexting or abstaining from these women. Again the problem is I would be nexting not only all the women available to me but most of the women unavailable to me as well lol. And if guys were being honest with themselves I know 90% of them here are in the same boat although they won't admit it.

Interesting take, but a tad gloomy, Keto.

What are your criteria for selection, I gather that you are not a ONS guy ( neither am I any more) and you probably audition woman for the role of potential 'new g/f'.....?

 

[guru1000]

I'm a supporter of qualifying women and believe there must be a few good women out there. But honestly I'll admit it, if I even partially qualifed women I would never have any women. You can say "well you're just not a quality enough guy". Nope, I can usually see all these women are unqualified 3 feet away regardless of what I am or am not. The real problem is there are virtually no quality women anymore. And the reason why and why you can't qualify women anyway or at least it's pointless is because part of the social convention is women shall not be qualified because they are above reproach. So what you're really doing is nexting or abstaining from these women. Again the problem is I would be nexting not only all the women available to me but most of the women unavailable to me as well lol. And if guys were being honest with themselves I know 90% of them here are in the same boat although they won't admit it.

Keto, this is a very good point. This as well may be the reason why many men fail to pull the NEXT trigger as a result of their scarcity dilemma.

The rule of thumb is if you are actively approaching, networking and internet profiling and still short in dates, you are aiming too high in the looks department.

It is reasonable to state that you refuse to date a girl that is below your status quo. However you are not dating in pursuit of exclusivity. You are simply keeping yourself in an abundant resourceful mindset. We can see how deluded one's mind frame can degenerate when surrounded by negativity (ie this thread).

The relative goal here is to run as efficiently as possible and keep your mind injected with positive fuel. Abundance not only gives you the tangible options making it easier to qualify (pulling the NEXT trigger) but ideally will keep you in a productive resourceful state.

 

[ketostix]

Interesting take, but a tad gloomy, Keto.

What are your criteria for selection, I gather that you are not a ONS guy ( neither am I any more) and you probably audition woman for the role of potential 'new g/f'.....?

Well I'm not a ONS guy, yet I am. I'm not aiming for just the ONS but I find really all these women are good for is sex. I've also experienced that if they don't have sex almost right away, it's not that they are quality it's just that they aren't that interested and are fvcking some other guy. Basically I just feel like yes there are some physically attractive women, and less women who also have appealling personalities, but even so they are very young, very rare and mostly unavailable for a lot of reasons.

I just don't see how a quality woman is going to be single and available for long. And even these obstensibly quality women types are really only available within a social circle where she is ligning up the guy. Now maybe this is a short coming on my part but it happens to many other guys I know, I never fared all that well in social circle game with all the c0ckblocking and backstabbing.

To me all the other stuff besides intimacy, sex whatever is just boring and pain in the butt. It's not even worth the hassle because 9/10 when you are playing the quality woman screening game you are really friend zoning and fooling yourself.

I guess what I'm saying is the problem transcends quality women, and qualifying. You have a throughly messed up social convention and the cards are stacked against you. Basically I just don't see how qualifying is really viable because all I'm seeing is 2 kinds of hors-those that are interested in you, and those who are not who mistakenly are given the quality lable.

It's like I thoroughly believe that building a quality relationship is on the woman. If I try to build the relationship I just as well be friend zoning myself. So like Danger explained, how else can you proceed but under the premise that all women are low quality hors and let it play out and see what they do and if they prove themselves different? The main thing is I'm just not seeing any quality women available in the first place. In reality it just seems like if you go at with the mindset that there are quality women and you're going to screen and aim for quality women, you're just going to be shooting yourself in the foot and sorely disappointed by what you get.

 

[Jeffst1980]

The definition of "Quality" isn't about being with someone who will never cheat or has perfect morals, it's about being with someone where the chances that the stars do align in a manner that would produce poor moral choices is very low.

That's similar to my definition, only I'd broaden it just a bit.

Want an easy way to predict future behavior? Just look to their family. See how mom and dad treat one another.

Sure, it's a coarse filter and it doesn't guarantee you won't get a dud (or that a perfectly great girl will be filtered out), but there's only two guarantees in life, anyway. For everything else, you gotta play the odds.

We focus on the, "Will she cheat?" question, but that's not really the main determinant of "quality"--it's to hypothetical anyway. I care more about how I'm respected in a relationship, and how she views relationships in general.

You can't answer the hypothetical "will she cheat?" unless it's already happened, so the real focus should be on what you can observe. I know if I'm being treated well, and I know if she has a healthy view of gender relations. Most of the time, these agree with the values they picked up from mom and dad--the apple truly doesn't fall far from the tree.

I will acknowledge that this kind of "quality" truly is more difficult to find now, since the baby boomers are now Generation Divorce, but if you want to a have a family, it's necessary to do some sifting.

 

[jophil28]

Want an easy way to predict future behavior? Just look to their family. See how mom and dad treat one another.

Gold !
And that assessment will give you more information about your future with your 'potential new girflfriend' than all the BS 'Self Help ' books on the shelves at B&N or indeed in this forum.

 

[jophil28]

You can't answer the hypothetical "will she cheat?" unless it's already happened, so the real focus should be on what you can observe. I know if I'm being treated well, and I know if she has a healthy view of gender relations. Most of the time, these agree with the values they picked up from mom and dad--the apple truly doesn't fall far from the tree.

More Gold.

 

[STR8UP]

This is exactly why I'm getting the hell outa here. Keto makes some great posts that are completely in line with my way of thinking and he gets props, yet I am "frustrated and unsuccessful" with women. What a crock. The same people who have this fairy tale rooted so deeply in their psyche are the ones who think they know me but have no clue.

Why is this? Because my words aren't congruent with their fantasy. Hence, "he must be bitter and frustrated". Sounds like the same crap I hear from women because I don't settle down with each and every floozy who throws her pu$$y at me.

It's funny how these threads degenerate into a pissing match with men defending women by shaming other men.

I sometimes wonder how many women these guys are actually banging. I've yet to find one of these 'moral' women. The thought almost makes me laugh. Women are AMORAL, their behavior/morality is simply a function of the frame you hold. If your frame is so weak that you are left fantasizing about finding a woman who will drop to her knees and suck your diick every night and never cheat on you -even after you let your fat ass go -because of her "morals", you are attempting to compensate for your own masculine failures with a social convention.

What they fail to account for is that a "good" girl is nothing more than a chick who is conditioned to behave against her innate drives and motivations. Morality is a social construct designed to temper NATURAL behaviors, not the other way around. It's merely a "shell" that is wrapped around the person to make people behave in a way that benefits society moreso than the individual.

They take for granted that this shell is strong. They take for granted that they are able to spot all of the cracked shells. Women have a LOT more at stake in the mating game, and as such they have evolved behaviors that allow them to disguise these cracks. You might not discover these flaws until YEARS into the relationship. By that time you've married the b!tch, knocked her up a couple of times, maybe you even have a nice fat investment portfolio that look ripe for the pickin'. Then you get taken to the cleaners while she's shacking up with Brad from accounting, taking romantic weekend vacations off of the alimony and child support windfall the courts awarded her, on top of half of the house, the car, etc.

Why should I have any reason to exercise caution with women?

I agree with KX, some of these guys need to go to NLG where they can give each other handjobs and avoid actually confronting their own self-limiting beliefs that are keeping them from becoming a masculine male.

You know, believe it or not, I don't speak my mind 100% on here. I have avoided calling it as I REALLY see it because crossing that line would result in nothing but bitter resentment.

Speaking of confronting self limiting beliefs, the reason for the bitter resistance to the idea that women are at their core amoral creatures is the same reason why religion is so popular. People in general NEED something to believe in. If you don't have the balls to face up to the idea that there MIGHT NOT be an almighty god waiting there at the pearly gates ready to judge whether or not you are worthy of entering the kingdom of heaven, you certainly aren't going to have the balls to face up to the rest of the mind controlling garbage that has been planted in you from time you were old enough to comprehend language.

Optimism is fine; resistance to the ugly truth is not.

 

[Rhoto]

My boy dragged me out last night, I wanted to sleep but he was in a partying mood. Ran into some friends and met this cute 30 year old. We danced and had a few shots. We ended up at her place and she gave me a bj in her driveway, then started crying because her husband who she is divorcing was inside sleep and she said she felt like a bad person, apparently he's a really nice guy and a good provider but she doesn't love him anymore. She promised to call me next week when he goes out of town. Women. I swear.

So - did she call you?

I just find this to be a fascinating subject. People are getting so heated because of dangerously precise and overly generalized words when trying to explain what went down here.

My question to you Warrior, did you feel guilt? or did you feel bad for the husband? or did you not really care either way?

 

[guru1000]

To all the men who believe morality is a sham and have their tighties in a bunch,

You all have little success with women and attempt to compensate your deficiencies with the "AMORAL" buffer. You can only justify your perpetual failure with women by screaming injustice. Just as pathetic as the poor man who justifies how the wealthy are immoral, you guys are the poor men of the community.

Man up and accept your rejections to become better men, not victims of a nature controlled society. I doubt any of you men have had much success if you truly believe that convictions will always succumb to nature. And the married "evolutionary psychologist" aka wine distributor who boasts about his Chrysler leading the pack speaks volumes.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Go ahead and build your straw men, that's what moralists do the best.

 

[Warrior74]

So - did she call you?

I just find this to be a fascinating subject. People are getting so heated because of dangerously precise and overly generalized words when trying to explain what went down here.

My question to you Warrior, did you feel guilt? or did you feel bad for the husband? or did you not really care either way?

My reply probably got lost in the high signal to noise ratio of this thread.

I was not happy to be put in that situation to be honest, I thought to myself, this guy could've come outside and blown my head off...I didn't stick around for more convo after she pulled herself together, I got the hell out of there.

She sent me a text tonight, apologizing and saying that if I didn't want to see her again she would understand. I'm not holding my breath for that one...moving on! Don't need the drama.

I made up my mind when I pulled of that I was done with that one. I felt bad for that guy...because I used to be that guy, but that's the way the world works in this day and time.

Did I feel guilt? A little. But I didn't know what I was going into...I don't blame myself 100% for what happened. She knew what she was putting me into. She wanted what she wanted until she didn't.

My ex was cheating on me at the end our realtionship, so I did feel bad for the guy.

She sent a couple of text, I didn't reply. Deleted her number. If I would have known her situation from the beginning I would have avoided her like the plauge. I should have asked more questions..besides, "so who are you here with? where's your boyfriend?" (to which she replied; with friends, she didn't have one, and no wedding ring = single in the club) In the club it's not too easy to have an indepth conversation about the grey areas one's relationship status. Of course she never asked me anything about mine at all.

 

[Colossus]

To all the men who believe morality is a sham and have their tighties in a bunch,

You all have little success with women and attempt to compensate your deficiencies with the "AMORAL" buffer. You can only justify your perpetual failure with women by screaming injustice. Just as pathetic as the poor man who justifies how the wealthy are immoral, you guys are the poor men of the community.

Man up and accept your rejections to become better men, not victims of a nature controlled society. I doubt any of you men have had much success if you truly believe that convictions will always succumb to nature. And the married "evolutionary psychologist" aka wine distributor who boasts about his Chrysler leading the pack speaks volumes.

Guru lays down the law, once again. It's important to note the difference between immoral (conflicting with held moral principles), and amoral (neither moral nor immoral). You might view a woman's behavior as immoral, but in her mind she may not even have a moral tenet that governs such behavior. She is just acting according to her impulses. This is how and why you qualify, rigorously.

I am not part of the club that believes convictions will always bend under natural imperatives. I think it is vitally important for a Man to have his own morality, and to hold his convictions for his chosen long-term girlfriend, wife, or whatever. Non-fvcking-negotiables. If you don't have some, don't be surprised if you get a lot of sh!t you don't like.

Morality is not a sham. It is a set of personal convictions. Guys see the contradictions in people's moral codes and make the incorrect conclusion that all morality is is a social construct with the purpose of serving society. And to some extent, it is. But my morality is still going to differ from someone else's, or even society's collective benchmarks. I, for example, don't think taking steroids is immoral, or even unethical in many cases. But most of society does. Now I didn't create this belief just so I could take roids guilt-free, but because I examined it critically and deemed that steroid use is someone's personal prerogative and should not be regulated. But that's just my morality, and I'm not going to impose it on folks who think steroids are always wrong.

What they fail to account for is that a "good" girl is nothing more than a chick who is conditioned to behave against her innate drives and motivations. Morality is a social construct designed to temper NATURAL behaviors, not the other way around. It's merely a "shell" that is wrapped around the person to make people behave in a way that benefits society moreso than the individual.

But in benefiting society it does benefit the individual. Your statement seems to imply that NATURAL behaviors are by definition undesirable, or detrimental to a population as a whole; which is not always true. In teaching a child right and wrong (most people have a similar structure of what is right and wrong), you not only benefit the child by showing him the best way to live with others, but you benefit everyone else by ensuring your kid doesn't grow up to be a d0uchebag.

Children, naturally, are selfish, whiny, and emotional. But they can also be naturally sweet, generous, and very loving. They will reflect what they see in their parents, and what their parents choose to discipline or not discipline them for. Personally I think this is where someone's concept of morality starts. Now while most of us have a sound concept of what is right and wrong, my morality is going to be slightly different from other guys in my culture, and probably radically different from guys in Muslim cultures, for example. Some radical Muslims wholeheartedly believe it is not only proper but GODLY to beat their wife for certain offenses.
Every parent has the right to teach their children what they believe is moral and just. Where I think people can cross the line is when they try to ascribe THEIR morality to others outside of family. We all do it at times, but this is what causes fights, lawsuits, divorces, and even wars. It's tricky because what if someone else's self-proclaimed 'moral' act results in the harm of another who wanted no part in the situation? I think this is when 'righteous morality' becomes evil---when others are being subject to unwarranted harm as a direct result of another's perceived moral action.

But I digress....

To support what GURU said, one of the most reliable ways to predict how a woman will treat you is to look at her parents and the dynamics of her family interaction. I can attest to this from A-1 personal experience. Women who come from dysfunctional family backgrounds will almost without fail bring those dysfunctional behaviors and mechanisms into a relationship. In fact I am so sure of this I would almost put a 100% guarantee on it. If her parents didn't communicate respectfully and gave her the silent treatment, guess what you're in store for?? If her mother cheated on her father repeatedly, guess what you can expect?? It always pays to get to know a girl's family and how she feels about them before going too far down the LTR road.

 

[ketostix]

one of the most reliable ways to predict how a woman will treat you is to look at her parents and the dynamics of her family interaction. I can attest to this from A-1 personal experience. Women who come from dysfunctional family backgrounds will almost without fail bring those dysfunctional behaviors and mechanisms into a relationship. In fact I am so sure of this I would almost put a 100% guarantee on it. If her parents didn't communicate respectfully and gave her the silent treatment, guess what you're in store for?? If her mother cheated on her father repeatedly, guess what you can expect?? It always pays to get to know a girl's family and how she feels about them before going too far down the LTR road.

And in addition to the nurture component of a person's family upbringing. Maybe there's also a genetic component. Maybe this dysfunctional family history is an indication of dysfunctional genetics and "nature". We don't even really know what is a person real nature independent of all else. I'm not sure why some people insist on completely separating the two, nurture and nature and weighing the significnce of each and which one dominates. On top of the that nature expression in humans always depends on the enviroment.

Maybe it's nature for everyone to steal. Does that mean rules, laws and morals against theft are just meaningless social constructs and conditioning that could possibly override this nature to get what you want the easiest way? No, I would say preventing wholesale theft is a higher order thing than the nature to steal. And if you meet someone who shows you signs that they steal it doesn't matter if the reason is because of nurture, nature, or both, this person fails no excuses and is not someone you should associate with. It wouldn't matter if society at the time sanction their theiving and theft. Some things and some behavior are always right or always wrong, no excuses. Women are not hard wired to be cheaters anymore than they are to be thiefs. They're both failures.