Fornication

[zekko]

There was recently some discussion about Christianity and premarital sex. When it comes to the Bible, a lot depends on how you interpret it. I'm sure many hardcore Fundamentalist types would declare it a sin, no discussion invited. But this is a pretty good article explaining the other side:

http://www.thechristianleftblog.org/blog-home/premarital-sex-is-it-a-sin-or-not

Most of the "it's a sin" view comes from the New Testament. Many of the Old Testament patriarchs kept multiple wives and concubines.

I think it's important to remember that sex in those days was a far more serious business. We've only had effective birth control for less than a century. Pregnancy aside, the medical field wasn't what it is now, so STDs were more serious as well. Even with our modern advances, there are posters here who have had STDs or caused unwanted pregnancies. Sin or no sin, DJ or no DJ, I don't think sex is something that anyone should take lightly.

 

[backbreaker]

Also you have to understand that in 1,000BC the worst thing you could do to a man besides kill him is to take his daughters virginity. That literately lead to a life of *****dom, prostitution and it prevented the father from setting his daughter up with a mutually benefiting relationship as another man would not wife a woman who was not a virgin.

Mary had to flee the city when she was pregnant wiht Jesus because they were going to kill her because they did not believe her. She brought shame on her family

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

1,000BC the worst thing you could do to a man besides kill him is to take his daughters virginity.

This is probably the reason, more than anything, else behind the idea of "having sex outside of marriage" is a "sin."

Like it or not, label it however you want, but women back then were much more like "property" so condemning people for banging outside of marriage wasn't about some kind of universal right or wrong, but more about protecting property rights.

During the middle ages, there was a long "cold war" between wealthy families and the catholic church (who was the ONLY christian church until the reformation). Second sons (who didn't inherit any property) were more likely to join the church, and the slowly changed the Marriage "laws" not for right or wrong, because if the CHURCH controlled who could marry whom, they could effectively keep any ONE FAMILY from amassing too much wealth.

That is ONE REASON why the Catholic Church is one of the RICHEST organizations on Earth. They used their connection to "God" to declare who could bang whom, and who could marry whom.

The BIBLE didn't come straight from God, it came through the CHURCH LEADERS (who chose and edited it carefully). Those dudes were the elites of the time, who controlled a lot of the wealth. The bible in it's current form wasn't really "finished" until the 1200's or so. That's a lot of time for politicians/leaders/wealthy to slant things in their favor.

Also consider that back in those days, few people could read and write, which meant that they could be told anything and they'd believe it, so long as it came from the church (mouth of god).

You can't give any group of humans that much power and expect them to be honest.

 

[zekko]

Otherwise you'll just have to keep compromising your faith for modernity.

Christianity is not about sex though, it's about the sacrifice of the Messiah.

 

[backbreaker]

Want more legitimate Christian teaching? Go and join the Westboro Baptist Church. Otherwise you'll just have to keep compromising your faith for modernity.

the only thing i have to have faith in is that Jesus is the son of god and that he died on the cross for mankinds sins to be washed away. That is in essence, all Christianity is.

again, if you actually READ the bible you'd know this

You can literally sum up the entire bible in one bible verse. At the last supper when Jesus tells his disciples he's about to die and this is their last meal together and he tells he will see them in heaven, and they say they don't know the way there, Jesus then tells them in John chapter 14 verse 6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father execpt through me"

No one has to tell anyone how to or how to not be a christian. Christianity is having faith that god sent his only son die for our sins.

People get so caught up with the little things like, can we not have sex before marriage or the bible says slavery is okay, and lose track of the big picture, that all of that is inconsequential. To be a christian is to simply believe in jesus Christ.

 

[backbreaker]

good lord some of you need to go to a good church, sit down and listen to a sermon or two lol. A lot of people just do not get it. ;

To be human is to be of sin. We are born with sin.; The bible is not a set of iron clad rules that you have to live by. The bible is a story of the people of GOD.

You can live a perfect life, to the best of your ability and you will still be of sin, GOD does not let you in his house because of the good things that you have done because whatever you do, you will still fall short, it's through GOD's grace and mercy that we are allowed into the kingdom of heaven.

GOD selected sinners all throughout the bible. Moses killed a man before GOD showed himself to him. King David slept with a man's wife, then when he found out she was pregnant, and the man refused to sleep with his own wife because he was in battle and dint' want to have sex with his wife while his comrades were out in battle, he had him put on the front line and killed. ;And while god punished him, he still gave him Solomon and kept his promise with David. Abraham *****d his wife out to Pharaoh for good favor with them. lol, Aaron, mosses brother, literally, turned a ****ing rod into a snake with god's help,. brought down plagues into egypt and watched GOD single handily kill every first born son in Egypt, then goes from Etype and the first thing he does is to create a statue of another god lol, which is the reason for the ten commandments. That's like the ONE sin you can't commit. Yet GOD still loves. ;

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

There was recently some discussion about Christianity and premarital sex. When it comes to the Bible, a lot depends on how you interpret it. I'm sure many hardcore Fundamentalist types would declare it a sin, no discussion invited. But this is a pretty good article explaining the other side:

http://www.thechristianleftblog.org/blog-home/premarital-sex-is-it-a-sin-or-not

Most of the "it's a sin" view comes from the New Testament. Many of the Old Testament patriarchs kept multiple wives and concubines.

I think it's important to remember that sex in those days was a far more serious business. We've only had effective birth control for less than a century. Pregnancy aside, the medical field wasn't what it is now, so STDs were more serious as well. Even with our modern advances, there are posters here who have had STDs or caused unwanted pregnancies. Sin or no sin, DJ or no DJ, I don't think sex is something that anyone should take lightly.

The desire for sex is the desire for a person.... a desire to escape your lonely existence and melt into a person. And that is why casual sex is unfulfilling, and can mess you up emotionally.

Interesting discussion on sex here... from 50 minutes on...
and a bit on pornography from 1hr 45

 

[Serenity]

That was a seriously good article. I'm an atheist though so I don't really care if the bible says one thing or another, I care about what's valid in today's world. I do agree there's social and emotional reasons to play carefully with sex, but holding it until marriage makes little sense to me. It certainly is possible to have sex outside of marriage without causing damage, it's also possible to cause damage with sex inside of a marriage.

Bottom line is, marriage is not a guarantee against sexual betrayal.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

What the article misses completely is the sacramental nature of sex and marriage. I reckon the 'Christian left blog' is too ideological for its own good. Looking for the origin of something is a fool's errand... you'll just read your own interpretation into the text. Better to see how traditions have evolved over time in the Church if you are interested in that sort of thing.

 

[zekko]

Better to see how traditions have evolved over time in the Church if you are interested in that sort of thing.

Tradition vs scripture is a major philosophocal/theological turning point among those who argue about such things. Whether or not, and to what extent, you accept tradition is a big fork in the road.

 

[Colossus]

As a Christian I've thought about this quite a bit. I think the 'fornication' command--which is only in the NT as you mentioned--is there for our own good. It's an admonition, because really, sex should be taken seriously and there are serious consequences for unrestrained lust. I do find it interesting that in all the exhaustive laws of Exodus, Leviticus, etc; there are none explicitly forbidding unmarried sex. Plenty of laws about seeing family members in states of nakedness, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality...and I believe a few about a virgin losing her virginity in a dishonorable way.

Like BB mentioned, the Bible is replete with great men of God who were sinners, backsliders, and outcasts. All men fall short of God's holiness and the ONLY way to redemption is through His son. Humans demonstrated over some 1600 years from Moses to Christ that we are incapable of following God's law to the letter for very long. The ransom has been paid for humanity, we are free to take it or leave it.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Tradition vs scripture is a major philosophocal/theological turning point among those who argue about such things. Whether or not, and to what extent, you accept tradition is a big fork in the road.

Yes, a sacrament is like a divine art in which we clothe ourselves. Autonomous reason, heresy, would strip everything away back to the base of 'reality', and then try to reconstruct everything. What begins with ideology probably ends in pornography.

 

[AlexKaiser]

Question, is it not-alpha to not be an aggressive atheist?

I mean, yeah I don't believe but never bothered with trying to become an anti-theist or engage in the debate nonsense, but if you're going to become alpha, get good with the ladies, does this also mean having to change yourself from being a passive/apathetic non-believer to a more active debatey one?

 

[Gimple]

I think the 'fornication' command--which is only in the NT as you mentioned--is there for our own good. It's an admonition, because really, sex should be taken seriously and there are serious consequences for unrestrained lust.

Actually, the Bible specifically says people who fornicate won't enter the Kingdom of God. I think that's a little more than an admonition, wouldn't you?

And what difference does it make if something's in the New or the Old Testament. I thought the NT was the one Christians really paid attention to anyway.

Like BB mentioned, the Bible is replete with great men of God who were sinners, backsliders, and outcasts. All men fall short of God's holiness and the ONLY way to redemption is through His son. Humans demonstrated over some 1600 years from Moses to Christ that we are incapable of following God's law to the letter for very long. The ransom has been paid for humanity, we are free to take it or leave it.

So are you saying that as a Christian, you shouldn't at least do your best to uphold the lifestyle Christ preached, even though you'll be forgiven when you fall short and sin? Because if that is what you're saying, it doesn't sound very sincere or contrite to me.

I mean, yeah I don't believe but never bothered with trying to become an anti-theist or engage in the debate nonsense, but if you're going to become alpha, get good with the ladies, does this also mean having to change yourself from being a passive/apathetic non-believer to a more active debatey one?

So first you say debating is nonsense, then you ask if you'd be more alpha if you were more "debatey"? Huh?

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Question, is it not-alpha to not be an aggressive atheist?

I mean, yeah I don't believe but never bothered with trying to become an anti-theist or engage in the debate nonsense, but if you're going to become alpha, get good with the ladies, does this also mean having to change yourself from being a passive/apathetic non-believer to a more active debatey one?

It depends on what you mean by alpha. Personally, I don't think being running around after low quality women because you have no self-control is 'alpha'. My interpretation of alpha is something like Aristotle's 'magnanimous man'. This person has not only overcome his circumstances, but also himself, to live a truly self-determined life.

 

[backbreaker]

So are you saying that as a Christian, you shouldn't at least do your best to uphold the lifestyle Christ preached, even though you'll be forgiven when you fall short and sin? Because if that is what you're saying, it doesn't sound very sincere or contrite to me.

I'm not trying to be negative here, but you really do not know what you're talking about and you look like a fool. You would not go into an english class and write an essay on a book you have not read, why are you debating something you obviously have no clue what it's context is.


1. the bible is not a guideline on how to live life, it's a love letter from god to his people.


Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

[Gimple]

I'm not trying to be negative here, but you really do not know what you're talking about and you look like a fool. You would not go into an english class and write an essay on a book you have not read, why are you debating something you obviously have no clue what it's context is.

Actually, I have read the Bible. Why would you assume I haven't? Just because I'm an atheist? I was once a Christian, you know. Most atheists once were. And we tend to know the Bible better than most Christians. That's often how we became atheists ... by reading the Bible.

1. the bible is not a guideline on how to live life, it's a love letter from god to his people.

Of course the Bible is a guidebook, among other things. The New Testament especially is chalk full of instructions and principles for living a "godly" life. And that's what this thread is about: is fornication godly or ungodly, according to the Bible? And the Apostle Paul says that those who partake in it will go straight to hell when they die, assuming that's what happens to people who don't inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Disciple... discipline.... without it, the mind enjoys a radical freedom... and soon falls victim to its passions.

With it, we have self-control... we restrain ourselves and choose a woman who is worthy. We have the freedom to do what we rationally desire.... as opposed to the abstract freedom from, which is vacuous.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Actually, I have read the Bible. Why would you assume I haven't? Just because I'm an atheist? I was once a Christian, you know. Most atheists once were. And we tend to know the Bible better than most Christians. That's often how we became atheists ... by reading the Bible.

Interesting. I myself read the bible specifically to get it out of the way as a potential "philosophy" but in so doing, became a believer. What I read resonated to my core.

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Romans 10:17

I would say that the scriptures are the one and only agency through which God speaks to us and transforms us.

Now moving on from addressing Gimple directly:

Mankind rebels against God because mankind, in his heart, believes that he is God. The natural man is repulsed by the thought of answering to a higher moral Authority. We gravitate to defining what is right and wrong in our own hearts, rather than seeking to learn what is right and wrong from that higher Authority.

We "must" be right, because we "feel" we are right. That is is a process of perception that we men face with women every day. Yet God suffers that with most of mankind. We humans generally feel we have the right to judge scripture, when in fact it is scripture that judges us, and tells us what is wrong with us.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts."
Prov 21:2

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

I would say that the scriptures are the one and only agency through which God speaks to us and transforms us.

The 'problem' with Christianity is that it's not tied to a philosophy but a Church. This is the agency which made the scriptures/ canon even possible in the first place. Without it, every man is his own pope and we soon devolve into anarchy. Before the Reformation, Truth was counter-balance by the other 'transcendentals' of Beauty, Goodness, and Unity. Without them, humanity risks collapsing into some two-dimensional ideology.