Fish oils slow down muscle degregation.

[Road Demon]

Road Demon.. you've told us what's recommended. Recommended by whom? MDs? The same people who say we should be eating 80g of protein a day?

There is NOTHING wrong (and everything good) about a high fish oil dose. (conversely there is an argument against a high flax oil dose - which you say isn't a big deal - but as I'm skeptical of it myself I won't bring it up)

Also, the 30-45g dose of fish oil is primarily to redress the omega3 : omega6 balance. If this balance is 20:1-50:1 in favour of omega6, how is 5g a day of fish oil going to redress this? It won't, simply! Once you've run the high dose fish oil for a while (say a month or two) you can lower the dose BUT you'd be better off with keeping it high for the health benefits.

And in a high fat enviroment (anabolic diet for example) it is prudent to get in a high fish oil dose to balance the fats you're taking in. That is the context in which the 30-45g of fish oil is recommended. And remember as strength athletes our needs are greater than that of the sedentary public (for whom the guidelines were laid down).

"Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy."
--Paracelsus " the father of modern Toxicology

When we talk about fish oil, we need to talk in terms of the ACTIVE omega-3s, as I'm refering to EPA/DHA combined, NOT raw fish oil. 1.5 to 4 grams of EPA and DHA combined should be plently, that is what is suggested in scientific peer reviewed published studies, looking at a number of different disease states. That could be anywhere from 3 to 18 grams of fish oil depending on the % EPA/DHA per gram of fish oil. I beleive the upper limit of DHA/EPA combined is somewhere around 5-6 grams a day depending on body mass (about 18 @ 30% fish oil concentrate or 12 @ 50% fish oil concentrate). I'm talking long term here, not a 'loading dose.'

I mention Flax oil as the conversion is less than 10% to the ACTIVE omega-3s. That is why it is OK to consume high doses. I don't supplement with Flax oil; I read dozens of peer reviewed publications on why fish oil is superior at the right dosage.

EPA/DHA does accumulate in the plasma membrane of cells. Their is a loading time and it takes a few weeks for the omega-3s to see the change. You can evaluate red blood cells membranes to get an idea of global omega-3 incorportation in cell membranes.

I take 4 Carlson 50% EPA/DHA concentrate fish oil to get 2 grams of EPA/DHA. I know about pharmacology. One of the endurance athletes I coach, has a platelet aggregation defect, so I advice him not to take fish oil supplements.

I'm aware that perhaps you are trying to get to the original hunter gather ratio of 2 omega-6 to 1 omega 3. I'll agree with that concept.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with taking 30-45 grams fish oil daily. I would NOT recommend it.

Their is a concept known in toxicology as the therapeutic index...

"Omega-3 fatty acids may increase the risk of bleeding, although there is little evidence of significant bleeding risk at lower doses. Very large intakes of fish oil/omega-3 fatty acids may increase the risk of hemorrhagic (bleeding) stroke. High doses have also been associated with nosebleed and blood in the urine. Fish oils appear to decrease platelet aggregation and prolong bleeding time, increase fibrinolysis (breaking down of blood clots), and may reduce von Willebrand factor.

Potentially harmful contaminants such as dioxins, methylmercury, and polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) are found in some species of fish. Methylmercury accumulates in fish meat more than in fish oil, and fish oil supplements appear to contain almost no mercury. But potentially lipid soluble contaminants will be bio-concentrated, that needs to be removed. Therefore, safety concerns apply to eating fish but likely not to ingesting fish oil supplements (assuming the fish oil is TESTED!)

Gastrointestinal upset is common with the use of fish oil supplements. Diarrhea may also occur, with potentially severe diarrhea at very high doses. There are also reports of increased burping, acid reflux/heartburn/indigestion, abdominal bloating, and abdominal pain. Fishy aftertaste is a common effect. Gastrointestinal side effects can be minimized if fish oils are taken with meals and if doses are started low and gradually increased. "

source:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-fishoil.html

Written by:
This information is based on a professional level monograph edited and peer-reviewed by contributors to the Natural Standard Research Collaboration (www.naturalstandard.com): Serguei Axentsev, MD, PhD, D.Sci. (Natural Standard Research Collaboration); Rawan Barakat, PharmD (Massachusetts College of Pharmacy); Ethan Basch, MD (Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center); Steve Bent, MD (University of California San Francisco); Cynthia Dacey, PharmD (Natural Standard Research Collaboration); Cathi Dennehey, PharmD (University of California San Francisco); Paul Hammerness, MD (Harvard Medical School); Paul Knaus, PharmD (Northeastern University); Mojisola Sekoni, PharmD (Massachusetts College of Pharmacy); Elizabeth Sheehan, PharmD (Northeastern University); Michael Smith, MScPharm, ND (Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine); Philippe Szapary, MD (University of Pennsylvania); Catherine Ulbricht, PharmD (Massachusetts General Hospital); Wendy Weissner, BA (Natural Standard Research Collaboration).

 

[LoneSilver]

Fish oil also increases IGF-1 and with that comes better skin tone and is an excellent supplement for bodybuilding and powerlifting.

LoneSilver

 

[spesmilitis]

None of those studies gave an upper limit to the amount of fish oils one can consume. Also, those guidelines are for general Americans.

From: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-fishoil.html

"
Adults (18 years and older):
Average dietary intake of omega-3/omega-6 fatty acids: Average Americans consume approximately 1.6 grams of omega-3 fatty acids each day, of which about 1.4 grams (~90%) comes from α-linolenic acid, and only 0.1-0.2 grams (~10%) from EPA and DHA. In Western diets, people consume roughly 10 times more omega-6 fatty acids than omega-3 fatty acids. These large amounts of omega-6 fatty acids come from the common use of vegetable oils containing linoleic acid (for example: corn oil, evening primrose oil, pumpkin oil, safflower oil, sesame oil, soybean oil, sunflower oil, walnut oil, wheatgerm oil). Because omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids compete with each other to be converted to active metabolites in the body, benefits can be reached either by decreasing intake of omega-6 fatty acids, or by increasing omega-3 fatty acids.

Recommended daily intake of omega-3 fatty acids (healthy adults): For healthy adults with no history of heart disease, the American Heart Association recommends eating fish at least two times per week. In particular, fatty fish are recommended, such as anchovies, bluefish, carp, catfish, halibut, herring, lake trout, mackerel, pompano, salmon, striped sea bass, tuna (albacore), and whitefish. It is also recommended to consume plant-derived sources of α-linolenic acid, such as tofu/soybeans, walnuts, flaxseed oil, and canola oil. The World Health Organization and governmental health agencies of several countries recommend consuming 0.3-0.5 grams of daily EPA + DHA and 0.8-1.1 grams of daily α-linolenic acid. A doctor and pharmacist should be consulted for dosing for other conditions. "

Now, I heard the ratio for average Americans is usually around 10-30:1.
Since the average American gets 1.6 grams of omega-3's per day, the average American eats 16-48 grams of omega 6's per day.

Say that 2:1 ratio is most optimal:

For an average fast food eatin american, they would need to consume 22-24 grams of fish oil to address their 48 grams of omega-3's they are getting per day.

I would say I am in the 16 gram category. My eggs, chicken, and beef are cooking with some vegetable oil probably I eat at dinning commons. Other than that, I don't see any other places vegetable oil is in my diet. I would estimate I am getting 2 grams grams of ALA cuz of the fruits and vegetables I eat. So I would need 6 grams of fish oil for balance.

Comments on my analysis?

 

[simon]

Eggs and chicken are pretty damn high in omega-6 anyway. Chickens fed on a natural diet i.e. insects + whatever else they like to eat, maybe supplemented with some flax, will have a better omega-3 : omega-6 ratio, closer to the 1:1 it should be.

When talking about this kinda stuff you have to properly differentiate between fat and fatty acids. In 5g of my fish oil, there's 1.3g EPA/DHA plus 0.4g of other omega-3 fatty acids. So if I ate 20g omega-6 in a day, which is about average for me, I'd need 10g omega-3 therefore 40g of the fish oil I use, in order to get a 2:1 ratio. In reality I stick around the 6.5g omega-3 mark, about 25g of fish oil. How much fish oil you need depends on how high in omega-3 it is.

If the average American does get 48g of omega-6/day, they'd need to get 24g of omega-3/day which would be a huge amount of fish oil. In that case it's best just to lower your omega-6 intake instead of increasing omega-3.

 

[Road Demon]

None of those studies gave an upper limit to the amount of fish oils one can consume. Also, those guidelines are for general Americans.

From: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-fishoil.html

"
Adults (18 years and older):
Average dietary intake of omega-3/omega-6 fatty acids: Average Americans consume approximately 1.6 grams of omega-3 fatty acids each day, of which about 1.4 grams (~90%) comes from α-linolenic acid, and only 0.1-0.2 grams (~10%) from EPA and DHA. In Western diets, people consume roughly 10 times more omega-6 fatty acids than omega-3 fatty acids. These large amounts of omega-6 fatty acids come from the common use of vegetable oils containing linoleic acid (for example: corn oil, evening primrose oil, pumpkin oil, safflower oil, sesame oil, soybean oil, sunflower oil, walnut oil, wheatgerm oil). Because omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids compete with each other to be converted to active metabolites in the body, benefits can be reached either by decreasing intake of omega-6 fatty acids, or by increasing omega-3 fatty acids.

Recommended daily intake of omega-3 fatty acids (healthy adults): For healthy adults with no history of heart disease, the American Heart Association recommends eating fish at least two times per week. In particular, fatty fish are recommended, such as anchovies, bluefish, carp, catfish, halibut, herring, lake trout, mackerel, pompano, salmon, striped sea bass, tuna (albacore), and whitefish. It is also recommended to consume plant-derived sources of α-linolenic acid, such as tofu/soybeans, walnuts, flaxseed oil, and canola oil. The World Health Organization and governmental health agencies of several countries recommend consuming 0.3-0.5 grams of daily EPA + DHA and 0.8-1.1 grams of daily α-linolenic acid. A doctor and pharmacist should be consulted for dosing for other conditions. "

Now, I heard the ratio for average Americans is usually around 10-30:1.
Since the average American gets 1.6 grams of omega-3's per day, the average American eats 16-48 grams of omega 6's per day.

Say that 2:1 ratio is most optimal:

For an average fast food eatin american, they would need to consume 22-24 grams of fish oil to address their 48 grams of omega-3's they are getting per day.

I would say I am in the 16 gram category. My eggs, chicken, and beef are cooking with some vegetable oil probably I eat at dinning commons. Other than that, I don't see any other places vegetable oil is in my diet. I would estimate I am getting 2 grams grams of ALA cuz of the fruits and vegetables I eat. So I would need 6 grams of fish oil for balance.

Comments on my analysis?

The typical american diet is abysmal. Let us not compare ourselves to those fast food eating individuals. Although our diets (ie those who work out, care about our health) are much better than the average diet.

I agree their is not enough data on the upper limit of of omega-3s. The data is just becoming known. We do know that individuals on high dose fish oil studies, often become stop taking the proper dosage for fish oil burp and GI tract issues.

Their is BIG difference between plant sourced omega-3s and the Fish oil EPA/DHA.

The conversion of Plant based omega-3 is ~10% to active omega-3 like EPA/DHA.

I think you all have to realize that the omega-3 EPA and DHA found only in Fish oils are MUCH more potent than plant derived omega-3s in terms of their pharmacological effects.

I'll have to agree with Simon on that we should be reducing our Omega-6 intake from vegetable oil sources. We can easily increase plant sourced omega-3 from Flax and walnuts for instance. A reduction in the omega-6 combined with an increase in plant sourced omega-3s, with fish oil supplements ( to increase EPA/DHA) is the most balanced approach to get back to the more favorable 2:1 ratio of our primitive hunter gather days.

Again what matters is the EPA and DHA combined in the fish oil. Simon I would suggest you use a more concentrated fish oil source, like a 50% EPA/DHA concentrate.

Like I said before, I consume 4 grams a day of Carlson fish oil (a 50% EPA/DHA prep), providing me with 2400 mg of fish source omega-3; of that 1200mg is EPA, 800mg is DHA, 400mg is other omega-3s. I feel really great between 1-2 grams of EPA/DHA combined per day.

The studies that I have read on have seen the upper limit of intake of 4-5 grams of EPA/DHA combined, NOT raw fish oil. In fact in most of this high ePA/DHA studies we see them using a high concentrated EPA/DHA prep, limiting total fish oil intake to 10 grams or less per day.

The American Heart Association guidelines for cardiovascular disease (CHD) risk patients is a daily intake of 1000mg of EPA/DHA combined, which is greater the the goal of the normal person's intake of 300-500mg/day.

 

[spesmilitis]

The studies that I have read on have seen the upper limit of intake of 4-5 grams of EPA/DHA combined, NOT raw fish oil. In fact in most of this high ePA/DHA studies we see them using a high concentrated EPA/DHA prep, limiting total fish oil intake to 10 grams or less per day.

Can you site these studies?

 

[LoneSilver]

On the back of my bottle of Fish Oil it says I get with two capsules which are 1200mg 1g of Poly or the omega-3 so if that is correct wouldn't I have to consume at least 6 capsules to get 3g of Omega-3 and a hell of a lot more to get more grams of Omega-3?

I consume alot of olive oil which is high in Omega-6 so the more Omega-3 the better and the better I feel.

LoneSilver

 

[simon]

It's easier and cheaper to use liquid oil instead of caps.

 

[Road Demon]

On the back of my bottle of Fish Oil it says I get with two capsules which are 1200mg 1g of Poly or the omega-3 so if that is correct wouldn't I have to consume at least 6 capsules to get 3g of Omega-3 and a hell of a lot more to get more grams of Omega-3?

I consume alot of olive oil which is high in Omega-6 so the more Omega-3 the better and the better I feel.

LoneSilver

So the serving size is (2) 1 gram capsules? Add up the milligrams of EPA and DHA. EPA and DHA are the 'active omega-3s.' That what you are looking for. You can also make note of the 'other omega-3s,' but again the active ones are EPA/DHA. Fyi: 3 grams a day is alot of EPA/DHA, IMHO, but it may be perfect for you. You can try that level and always adjust up or down. Make sure you use a good quality brand, that is third party tested for contaminates and/or molecularly distilled since you are taking quite a bit of fish oil.

I agree with Simon that liquid fish oil in the bottle is more economical. Try Carslons lemon flavored stuff.

Olive Oil is a good fat. Feel free to use that instead of other oils. Look for Extra virgin as it has more antioxidants. Now it sounds like you are trying to achieve the 2:1 ratio of omega-6 to omega-3

I will try to locate review papers about omega-3 fish oil. I will also try to locate a few primary articles and post the abstracts. Then you can search for the articles on Pubmed.

 

[LoneSilver]

Thanks Road Demon appreciate this.

LoneSilver

So the serving size is (2) 1 gram capsules? Add up the milligrams of EPA and DHA. EPA and DHA are the 'active omega-3s.' That what you are looking for. You can also make note of the 'other omega-3s,' but again the active ones are EPA/DHA. Fyi: 3 grams a day is alot of EPA/DHA, IMHO, but it may be perfect for you. You can try that level and always adjust up or down. Make sure you use a good quality brand, that is third party tested for contaminates and/or molecularly distilled since you are taking quite a bit of fish oil.

I agree with Simon that liquid fish oil in the bottle is more economical. Try Carslons lemon flavored stuff.

Olive Oil is a good fat. Feel free to use that instead of other oils. Look for Extra virgin as it has more antioxidants. Now it sounds like you are trying to achieve the 2:1 ratio of omega-6 to omega-3

I will try to locate review papers about omega-3 fish oil. I will also try to locate a few primary articles and post the abstracts. Then you can search for the articles on Pubmed.