First Date Trainwrecks - Help !

[Daygame777]

Hi guys, just joined the forum and so coming out of an LTR after 2 other LTR’s, my first date skills are so sooooo rusty.


15 years or so since short-term lays.


Aged 37, so my lower range so far seems to be 30 at youngest based on my age in the UK...(is that a mental block you guys getting lower ?)
I’m totally fine after first/second dates but I keep falling down at the getting to know you stage…first date.
My goals are Same-day Lay (SDL) or Short-Term Lays (STL) and then rotate on to next chick.



Am getting leads completely through dating apps and pretty much most of the chix contacted me first so the interest ‘ball rolling’ has started with them and I still blow out.


I basically had 12 dates in the last year and blew out on most of them with the “just not feeling it, vibe was off, no vibe”…Still got kisses off of 6, foreplay of 2 and sex off 1…but most never went to 2nd date.


My issue is primarily with the structure and relaxing on the date which has got progressively better on the relaxing side at least. I read a pretty decent ebook on first date structure and it recommends to do the date for 1-hour…





1) Start with fluff talk, observations..pivot to


2) Pivot into past relationships talk (this is a bridge to stage 3 so it's not too sudden a topic introduction)


3) Bridge into sex talk in the last 10-20 mins to keep you 100% out the friendzone.


My main issues on these dates are kino escalation and sexualized talk in the date to bring it to a tipping point to hook for same-day lay or 2nd date at least.


I find it hard to bridge into progressive physical contact along with sexualized chat at the end to keep me out the friend zone…So that there is no sudden jarring feeling going from no-contact to trying to kiss escalate. There is basically no buying temperature ramping up during the date…as I keep getting stuck in random directionless fluff talk..


I had a 32-year old date 2 days ago who contacted me a week ago that I managed to get to my house after the date same-day..half-Ukrainian chick about HB8 and it tanked, as she split on me when I get inside her comfort zone about to kiss her with none of the warm-up stuff stacked before trying to kiss her.





The chicks I meet all are not gold-diggers…I own my own place have taken quite a few there same-day, dress snappy, told I look good/above average and you think that would swing it over line to a degree - but it does not..they are all pretty much looking for that "connection or sexual tension ramping" and due to me being out the game so long.. I have these mental blocks on getting kino and sexualizing the talk…and projecting the right first date vibe.



I’m basically not bringing any progressively solid first date game to the table at all.
I lost a ton a ton a ton a ton (not a typo) of chix at chat stage on dating apps last one year, but that is more solved now..it was like I had self-sabotage and would say stuff I regret, or say to much which would blow out somehow, and now have at least honed the dating app to date stage better at least.


It is driving me up the wall as most of these chix contacted me 90% and I have squandered every opportunity last 12 months.


I need to to up it to 2 or even 4 dates per month at least to double my failure rate..or rather double my success rate I should say…but I have to snap out of this train wreck stack I’m doing on autopilot...

 

[filerfiler]

A few points:

1) I'm in the UK, >40 and i constantly date below 30. It helps that I look younger though (guesses are in the 28-34 range).

It's fine, just state it matter of fact, completely own it. Girls are fine with it, if you come off 1% insecure about it they'll pick on it and get insecure themselves.

I don't use dating apps though.

2) I'm not sure what stupid ebook you read, past relationship talk and sex talk are a no no in my book. You mostly escalate by action. Try and read her signs, standard push pull. If she's positive towards you she'll reciprocate. Start simple and escalate (standard stuff, touch hands, pat on the back, pat on the lower back, etc...). If she's not receptive, pull back and try again later.

Sex talk is a sign of thirsty behaviour. Relationship talk is what girls do together. When she brings it up I just shrug it and change the subject.

Also it seems like this stupid ebook makes you act somewhat robotic, 20 minutes this 20 minutes that, the £$£$. Enjoy yourself and adjust to the situation.


3) You avoid friendzoning yourself by having high standards for yourself, not appeasing her, and teasing her. Make fun of her. Genuinely amuse yourself.

 

[sevbucmash]

Pivot into past relationships talk

What kind of femenist virgin wrote that horrible book?


Past relationship talk = WTF is wrong with you, why you single, small penis maybe don't last long? If you bring it up, you just telling her whats wrong with you. It's borring stuff. You just say you two had irreconcilable differences and move on.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

12 dates in a year is way too long of a space in between dates to actually try and fix anything...

You should be having that many dates in a month if you are doing it properly at this stage, which is to build a pipeline of women.

Your goal should be to start experimenting with things in-date to figure out what works, what you need to stop doing and what you need to tweak.

You can't do that with an average of a month between dates...it's just way too long.

 

[CornbreadFed]

3) Bridge into sex talk in the last 10-20 mins to keep you 100% out the friendzone.

Stopped right her. This gives sex starved incel vibes. You need to become more confident with yourself. Your foundation is rotten to the core, so you need to tear down everything and rebuild it. You are going to hate this answer but aim for lower hanging fruit to get out of this dry curse, work on some hobbies/self-development regarding physical yourself, finances and your career. You should be golden by age 40.

 

[Daygame777]

Hi, yes the ebook was "Get to Sex Fast" by Black Dragon....I just looked everywhere for a first date structure I could as I kind of just flap all over the place with flufftalk.

Glad I found this forum even if I get mocked for what I post first time.

 

[SW15]

"Get to Sex Fast" by Black Dragon....

Haven't read that book but I am familiar with its writer. It is Caleb Jones (aka Alpha Male 2.0 / Blackdragon).

Caleb Jones has some good ideas and has published some good frameworks over time but there are areas where I will disagree.

Caleb Jones has been more of a get to sex on the 2nd date guy.

His most recent article on his blog about the topic you are mentioning in this thread.

How Long Should You Wait For Sex? - Alpha Male 2.0

Reading Time – 7 minutes First date? Second date? After five dates? After you discuss exclusivity? Before the first date, as in she just comes over (or you go to her place) and just bang? Once you “get to know her better?” How long should...

alphamale20.com

He's far more of an online dating proponent than I am, which is where I would have a big disagreement with him.

I basically had 12 dates in the last year and blew out on most of them with the “just not feeling it, vibe was off, no vibe”…Still got kisses off of 6, foreplay of 2 and sex off 1…but most never went to 2nd date.

12 dates in a 12 month period is not high volume. That's also not good to get 0 second dates off of 12 first dates. Many men do get trapped in a "one date, no sex, no second date" cycle.

 

[New_Journey]

past relationship talk

Past relationship talk = WTF is wrong with you, why you single, small penis maybe don't last long? If you bring it up, you just telling her whats wrong with you. It's borring stuff. You just say you two had irreconcilable differences and move on.

While the genera. consensus is right, we shouldn't talk about past relationships. This can be done to your advantages and to gauge how the woman sees you.

Example:

1. Let me ask you this, you're beautiful, smart, funny. Why you haven't being snatched already, with a bunny inside of you?

I've done this, if she has something to hide, they will blow off the question, if they tell you something, take it with a grain of salt and do your best assessment. There you can see the type of guys she goes for, how she is mentally and the baggage she has.

By you mentioning a "bunny" implies you are sexual being who will fvck her.

At least for me, I engaged her emotions with that type of casual questioning while not being indiscrete

 

[Daygame777]

Thanks...my talk almost defaults to kind of talk you would have with a new female co-worker.. safe and fluffy = like that..is why there is no hook/vibe/buying temperature raised.
I try and make bullet points of stuff, get to the date and then it triggers.... THAT chat again with no kino/edge....it is like I have a self-defeating 'part of self' that wants to keep me single after getting stuck in LTRs way beyond the eject point...it's like its messing me up to save me from that.

Least I'm aware of where it goes wrong and yes, I need a ton more dates with totally rewired chat or banter as we say here.
I'm so different to these dates, I kind of seize up on my better side... I vibe well with all the taken housewives etc in my place as its not the 'date frame'

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

Welcome. The guys are correct. Sex talk on the first date as a planned thing is going to feel odd to a girl, stilted; forced....especially with this robotic formulaic equation you are following.

Ditch the past relationship talk too. Its a drag. Too heavy. Say your last LTR didn't work for various reasons & move on.

You seem to think the rest is "fluff talk" (get through it, boring, blah blah blah.) The secret to success my dear is to focus on the "fluff talk" and take a genuine interest in it. Ask follow up questions. THAT is how you build rapport. Ask what she'd do on a totally off the cuff spontaneous weekend jaunt. Really? What appeals to you about that? (smile).....

These women feel nothing because you are focused on sex, not connection. It feels forced & icky to them. Women pick up that ick vibe & you are sunk.

Focus on connection and take a real interest. If you are a stylish reasonably handsome man the sex will evolve from that naturally.

 

[BPH]

It looks like you've been given pretty solid advice so far, I'll see if I can add to it.

The first thing that I noticed is how you view all this; the goal of same-day lays, the desire to get more dates so you can "fail faster" in as sense, and the way you structure your dates around the guidelines of a 1-hour conversation.

It's all very inorganic, and I think you'd be better served by focusing more on the process than on the goal, and the means to get there.

Let me elaborate...

On your dates try doing this thing called "having fun". Be flirty, be fun, be confident - don't think about your dates as checklists where you have to start at point A, then get to B before going to C, etc. You want to be socially aware of the situation you're in so you can make adjustments for where you want to go, and this requires to paying attention to your date and seeing them as a person, rather than as simply a vehicle for getting what you want out of them.

Also, it matters where your dates actually are. You haven't described where you're going or what you're doing with these women when you go on these dates. If your goal is escalation and sex, I would always opt for a late night drink date at a bar on a weekend. In my opinion, this is probably the easiest way to set yourself up for a lay if the date goes well; it's dark and late, you're both drinking in a semi-public and often fun environment, it's the weekend so it's unlikely you have to worry about the timing of things like work, etc.

And finally, your goal. Going from 3 LTRs where you haven't been promiscuous in over 15 years to suddenly wanting to go a series of one-night stands is a bit unrealistic. It sounds like you were still successful with 1 of those women, so my short-term advice would be to try and emulate what worked with her and apply it to other women. My long-term advice would be to get comfortable going out and meeting women at these places, rather than setting up dates at these places through apps. I've had plenty of success on Tinder, Bumble, and Hinge - compared to most guys I know at least. However, I've had much MORE success finding attractive women who are already out at these bars or clubs and either sleeping with them that night, or arranging some other date that leads to sex.

Those would probably be my immediate recommendations to you, based on what you've described here.

 

[SW15]

Ditch the past relationship talk too. Its a drag. Too heavy. Say your last LTR didn't work for various reasons & move on.

There's no way that talking about failed past relationship on first dates in any sort of detail will be beneficial.

It's the kind of talk that dries up the pussie.

Saying the last LTR didn't work for various reasons and not providing any details is good enough.

Everyone has had a failed relationship at some point. People understand.

Focus on connection and take a real interest. If you are a stylish reasonably handsome man the sex will evolve from that naturally.

This can help when it is real. I'm thinking that @Daygame777 has arranged a lot of bad dates. There simply wasn't a connection there and he couldn't create the interest.

On your dates try doing this thing called "having fun". Be flirty, be fun, be confident - don't think about your dates as checklists where you have to start at point A, then get to B before going to C, etc. You want to be socially aware of the situation you're in so you can make adjustments for where you want to go, and this requires to paying attention to your date and seeing them as a person, rather than as simply a vehicle for getting what you want out of them.

This is good advice. There's a certain amount of fun and spontaneity that's involved in good dating. It's good to prepare to be successful on dates, but at some level it takes social calibration and social skill to project that sense of fun.

Also, it matters where your dates actually are. You haven't described where you're going or what you're doing with these women when you go on these dates. If your goal is escalation and sex, I would always opt for a late night drink date at a bar on a weekend. In my opinion, this is probably the easiest way to set yourself up for a lay if the date goes well; it's dark and late, you're both drinking in a semi-public and often fun environment, it's the weekend so it's unlikely you have to worry about the timing of things like work, etc.

This is true. This is when men need to avoid standard dinner dates in restaurants as first dates.

Later night drinks at bars is the best idea for having fun on a date. It might result in 1st date. It might not. Even if it doesn't, it can help with creating enough of a connection to make 2nd date or 3rd date sex more realistic.

And finally, your goal. Going from 3 LTRs where you haven't been promiscuous in over 15 years to suddenly wanting to go a series of one-night stands is a bit unrealistic. It sounds like you were still successful with 1 of those women, so my short-term advice would be to try and emulate what worked with her and apply it to other women. My long-term advice would be to get comfortable going out and meeting women at these places, rather than setting up dates at these places through apps. I've had plenty of success on Tinder, Bumble, and Hinge - compared to most guys I know at least. However, I've had much MORE success finding attractive women who are already out at these bars or clubs and either sleeping with them that night, or arranging some other date that leads to sex.

This is perfect advice. @Daygame777 might be better off focusing on doing daygame. Daygame is better suited for extended interactions. If he does daygame approaches and sets up later night dates at bars, he'll get some amount of 1st - 3rd date sex. He doesn't need to focus on number of notches, but he could get more frequent notches with fewer women if he does his dates well.

I like the idea of having a focus on setting up quality first dates that are more likely to lead to extended interactions.

 

[Daygame777]

Thanks everyone. I'll be taking notes.

I want to do daygame but get stuck in my head..likes of yesterday..female next to me alone..felt she was lingering in coffee shop bit longer but I never know what to say..scripted thing or improv on situation.
I don't drink so all my dates are in same coffee shop near my place..daytime weekend.
I get my timing so I start chat on dating apps Wednesday for weekend which seems to work against flakines.

I have lived in Asia approx 15 years dating Asian women and so coming back into my on white western woman dating scene its a bit of a reverse culture shock so there is that combined with me being slightly not neurotypical as they say..lot of guys who seek out PUA stuff seem to be engineering type kind of rigid types from observation...not entirely but a good section.

It's part of the vibe comments I've had. I have to seek out the charisma stuff and mask it basically..it is low level and not as bad as I've seen in in-field vids..likes of one guy on a TNL bootcamp the other day...very rigid/robotic...is why I'm going towards blueprints basically
as I need a structure where I can then improv as some of you have said the stack I have is too rigid.

The Blackdragon thing using previous relationship chat was a bridge to sexualising the chat right up to the end then you split, don't try and kiss her and set up a Day 2...he said from experimenting this was what cracked it for him as it puts you outside the friendzone and she associates calibrated sex talk with you between Day 1 and Day 2 meet...so that is his thing.

He said when he never attempted a kiss the Day 2s all hooked...he never tried SDLs on a cost basis as he was spinning so many plates to do all the bounces on venues and to have it fail was adding up to too much cost...so his thing is based around the volume of dates he was on and what brought the highest level of hooks.

Took a month to read his book only to have things pointed out as not advisable on here...but I'm listening.

The half-Ukrainian (32) chick on Sunday basically got up and left my place when I cruised in next to her on sofa as I had not bonded/raised the buying temp and do not want that happening again...she reached out to me on dating app, and came half way across the city for that to happen.

I had another Latvian chick (32) ..usually I connect to about HB8 or so walk so far to my coffee place last autumn, she showed up literally trembling and spilling coffee all over herself and again it just died after 30 mins and she split...it's the charisma and connection thing that is a black hole for me...I think she over-idealised how I was going to be, along with how I was...same old
"You're a nice guy, but I was just not feeling it" variant comment that I have screenshotted from every date as I message them for impressions even if it died ...to calibrate it all...like an engineering type.... They are putting in all this effort from their end, and I desperately want to deliver.


I know I can mask my low level social issues if I find the right kind of charisma product etc..it's not that bad....say 5-10% if autism type signaling is 50% different to normal ...but it's enough that highly socialized women with lots of dates behind then can feel it or or flag it during the date....part of it is nervousness....I went to an NLP guy and spent a fortune and that greatly reduced my uptightness last year...part of it was also excess caffeine which I have more of a control over.

I got trauma late 22/23 taking care of parent who passed away and right after my neighbour about 6 months later got me in her place..hot 36 actress and I frikin' ran out her place when she came on to me and I had a panic attack..that was start of my "white chick issues"...but its not as bad as that now....got on top panic...got 80% on top of nervousness..its the focusing on sex/charisma/bonding stuff you've all pointed towards is my downfall...I also do not drink now due to said previous issues 22/23 so its day coffee shop meets for me so far...don't want to go near bar scene as it will trigger chronic low-level drinking again I feel.

 

[Bingo-Player]

Others have offered good advice but I would mention app instigated women are generally a lot harder to crack than women you meet IRL

APP women tend to be very stiff I assume due to the volume of incompatible matches they end up meeting / interacting with

I have talked about this before but I believe women on these apps put multiple walls up and fully expect a male match to be able to take every single one of them down before offering even a crumb of Pu$$y

Perhaps Ironically for women most of the men on these apps are probably the least emotionally equipped to break down the walls

I believe this is where the now popular term " emotional immaturity" has come from

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As far as talking about sex before you actually have it , I wouldn't advise at all

I had one chick last year rip me a new one because I dared to suggest she seemed like she may be good in bed

She was 34 years of age

it was a crass comment in hindsight but it was a serious overreaction by her and a warning not too get too c0cky

I would also quit using terms like "SDL or STL" these are old world pickup terms and we no longer live in that world

 

[Daygame777]

Others have offered good advice but I would mention app instigated women are generally a lot harder to crack than women you meet IRL

APP women tend to be very stiff I assume due to the volume of incompatible matches they end up meeting / interacting with

I have talked about this before but I believe women on these apps put multiple walls up and fully expect a male match to be able to take every single one of them down before offering even a crumb of Pu$$y

Perhaps Ironically for women most of the men on these apps are probably the least emotionally equipped to break down the walls

I believe this is where the popular term " emotional immaturity" has come from

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as talking about sex before you actually have it , I wouldn't advise at all

I had one chick last year rip me a new one because I dared to suggest she seemed like she may be good in bed

She was 34 years of age

it was a crass comment in hindsight but it was a serious overreaction by her and a warning not too get too c0cky

I would also quit using terms like "SDL or STL" these are old world pickup terms and we no longer live in that world

They have been - 90% of them - in redflag mode from the get-go meeting them, coming off dating apps..I just use terms I used when I got in the scene 2007 or so around Strauss time and Deangelo just before....I have no idea how to express it otherwise..it's the only abbreviations I know...
I dubbed some of them 69'ers on the apps as the grill I was getting put through on chat at times by 6s who though they were 9s due to volume of needy guys hitting them for dates...I do want to get off the apps but its my only way till I solve my approach issues IRL.

 

[RangerMIke]

A few points:

1) I'm in the UK, >40 and i constantly date below 30. It helps that I look younger though (guesses are in the 28-34 range).

It's fine, just state it matter of fact, completely own it. Girls are fine with it, if you come off 1% insecure about it they'll pick on it and get insecure themselves.

I don't use dating apps though.

2) I'm not sure what stupid ebook you read, past relationship talk and sex talk are a no no in my book. You mostly escalate by action. Try and read her signs, standard push pull. If she's positive towards you she'll reciprocate. Start simple and escalate (standard stuff, touch hands, pat on the back, pat on the lower back, etc...). If she's not receptive, pull back and try again later.

Sex talk is a sign of thirsty behaviour. Relationship talk is what girls do together. When she brings it up I just shrug it and change the subject.

Also it seems like this stupid ebook makes you act somewhat robotic, 20 minutes this 20 minutes that, the £$£$. Enjoy yourself and adjust to the situation.


3) You avoid friendzoning yourself by having high standards for yourself, not appeasing her, and teasing her. Make fun of her. Genuinely amuse yourself.

Good advice. Never talk about sex or past relationships on a first date. If your date brings this up, change the subject. Sex and relationships are things women talk about with each other... when you go along with this you are coming off as a 'friend'.

Your mindset on a first date should be to have fun... never talk about health problems, sex, relationships, politics, or religion. If both of you have kids... avoid that too unless it's something funny... in my experience when you start talking about kids... well.... everyone has problems with their kids... and the negative sh1t rises to the top.

Never pretend to be something that you are not. Trust me on this... most women I know can smell out a lie. If she catches you in something that is less than honest... you will not come off as confident.

Let her talk... you are paying for the date... she should be selling herself to you... she knows you are interested in her because you asked her out: you do not know where you stand with her and she needs to let you know, if she isn't... read between the lines and move on. If she isn't attracted.... well she's not feeling chemistry... not a fvcking thing you can do if she isn't attracted to you... if she isn't talking and selling herself, she isn't attracted and interested, let the date end and delete the number and move on.

So what are good subjects? Ask her what she does in her free time, music she likes, movies she's seen.... let her talk, ask questions about her interests. The only advice I have about this is try not to use what she is saying to build a connection. Too many men try to go along with her and agree they like the same things she does... don't do this! Unless there is an HONEST commonality... TRUST ME if you try the "Oh, I like that too!", when you really don't she can sniff that out pretty fast.... now you are placed in a position where you are defending what you just said... she'll ask you questions you can not answer correctly.

If she says she likes something you really don't... no problem... just say "I've never been into that, tell me what you like about it." Whatever it is. I had a date where a woman said she loves going to estate and yard sales... I freaking hate doing that... my daughters like it and I avoid going with them as much as possible, the idea of picking through someone else's sh1t they no longer want is not how I want to spend my time. So when she said this is what she liked to do in her free time I just asked her "So tell me some of the things you've found at these sales." Note: I wasn't negative I just encouraged her to talk more about it. She went on and on about her 'finds' and eventually she got to something she bought that I knew something about... and had a nice first date that lead to other dates... KEEP HER TALKING... if she is talking then you are not going to say anything stupid, and you are learning about her. Only add to the conversation when you have something interesting and honest to say.

Good luck, keep trying don't get frustrated, and for God's sake, never try and force something that isn't there because that stink of desperation.