Female Security in LTR's

The Duke

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I've had a few women tell me that being married helps them feel secure in a relationship instead of simply being in a committed live in long term relationship without the marriage part.

It doesn't change my thoughts on marriage, but it does make me wonder if it helps alleviate anxiety for the female which causes other problems. And I'm talking solid, genuine, caring women. Not some gold digger, wants the ring, disney fantasy princess wanting the experience type.
 

Bokanovsky

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I've had a few women tell me that being married helps them feel secure in a relationship instead of simply being in a committed live in long term relationship without the marriage part.

It doesn't change my thoughts on marriage, but it does make me wonder if it helps alleviate anxiety for the female which causes other problems. And I'm talking solid, genuine, caring women. Not some gold digger, wants the ring, disney fantasy princess wanting the experience type.
"Security" in this context means a woman taking comfort in the knowledge that she will get 50% of your assets in case of a divorce. This isn't much different from a lender securing his loan with a mortgage.

If you look at marriage as a commercial transaction, where a man buys a woman and the consideration given for the purchase is half of his future assets (or whatever is negotiated under a prenup), it kind of makes sense. The main problem is the modern concept of a "no fault divorce". A woman can decide to terminate the marriage contract at any time (and statistically speaking, 80% of divorces are initiated by women) and still get her pay out. This has no analogy in the commercial world. When a bank gives you a loan, it's for a fixed term. As long as you make monthly payments, the bank cannot recall the loan. Now imagine if a bank gave you a loan for a 10-year term and then decided to cancel it after two years...and you would be liable to not only pay back the principal amount early but also interest on the full 10-year term, even though you only had the money for two years. This is basically how modern divorces work. The end result is that while marriage might give a woman a sense of security, it does the exact opposite for a man. A married man is, by definition, financially vulnerable.

Of course, the above analysis only applies to men with some financial means. If you're unemployed or a paycheck-to-paycheck type without a dime to your name, you don't have to worry about any this. Perversely, the only way a man can feel secure in a marriage is if he's got nothing to lose. Of course, the woman's "security" isn't worth much in that case. So at the end off the day, it's zero some game. Either the woman is secure or the man. But it can't be both of them.
 

DreamAgain

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"Security" in this context means a woman taking comfort in the knowledge that she will get 50% of your assets in case of a divorce. This isn't much different from a lender securing his loan with a mortgage.

If you look at marriage as a commercial transaction, where a man buys a woman and the consideration given for the purchase is half of his future assets (or whatever is negotiated under a prenup), it kind of makes sense. The main problem is the modern concept of a "no fault divorce". A woman can decide to terminate the marriage contract at any time (and statistically speaking, 80% of divorces are initiated by women) and still get her pay out. This has no analogy in the commercial world. When a bank gives you a loan, it's for a fixed term. As long as you make monthly payments, the bank cannot recall the loan. Now imagine if a bank gave you a loan for a 10-year term and then decided to cancel it after two years...and you would be liable to not only pay back the principal amount early but also interest on the full 10-year term, even though you only had the money for two years. This is basically how modern divorces work. The end result is that while marriage might give a woman a sense of security, it does the exact opposite for a man. A married man is, by definition, financially vulnerable.

Of course, the above analysis only applies to men with some financial means. If you're unemployed or a paycheck-to-paycheck type without a dime to your name, you don't have to worry about any this. Perversely, the only way a man can feel secure in a marriage is if he's got nothing to lose. Of course, the woman's "security" isn't worth much in that case. So at the end off the day, it's zero some game. Either the woman is secure or the man. But it can't be both of them.
What if they make similar incomes?
 

Bokanovsky

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What if they make similar incomes?
Then it's not a concern. But that's different from the situation The Duke is describing, where a woman sees marriage a form of security. And the practical reality is that women (and especially attractive women) will try to marry men who make more money than them. This has always been the case.
 

Pierce Manhammer

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I've had discussions like this with women before. Some think it buys them some badge of respectability - it could be generational.

My most significant and extended LTR and I agreed we didn't need the mess and that we'd keep things separate when we shared a home, with a shared account we'd deposit funds in for our life together.

Marriage is for partitioning money, property, and legacy (children), ours were late teens and young adults then. We agreed that when the time came, we would have a commitment party for our close friends to celebrate our relationship.
 

AmsterdamAssassin

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I've had a few women tell me that being married helps them feel secure in a relationship instead of simply being in a committed live in long term relationship without the marriage part.
I'm sure they feel more secure in a marriage, especially when it becomes time to break up.

It doesn't change my thoughts on marriage, but it does make me wonder if it helps alleviate anxiety for the female which causes other problems. And I'm talking solid, genuine, caring women. Not some gold digger, wants the ring, disney fantasy princess wanting the experience type.
It would probably alleviate their anxiety, but I can guarantee you that their 'anxiety' or 'insecurity' is not necessarily a bad thing. As discussed in the thread about 'walking away', if a woman knows you're able to walk away from the relationship (because you have options available and are not 'bound' to her), she's less likely to become a PITA.
 

AmsterdamAssassin

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If you look at marriage as a commercial transaction, where a man buys a woman and the consideration given for the purchase is half of his future assets (or whatever is negotiated under a prenup), it kind of makes sense. The main problem is the modern concept of a "no fault divorce". A woman can decide to terminate the marriage contract at any time (and statistically speaking, 80% of divorces are initiated by women) and still get her pay out. This has no analogy in the commercial world. When a bank gives you a loan, it's for a fixed term. As long as you make monthly payments, the bank cannot recall the loan. Now imagine if a bank gave you a loan for a 10-year term and then decided to cancel it after two years...and you would be liable to not only pay back the principal amount early but also interest on the full 10-year term, even though you only had the money for two years. This is basically how modern divorces work. The end result is that while marriage might give a woman a sense of security, it does the exact opposite for a man. A married man is, by definition, financially vulnerable.
It's more about 'going into business' with your wife to 'build a future together', so you should both have stakes in that future.

The 'no fault divorce' is disadvantage for men in the sense that it's a 'breach of marital contract' that one person gets to torpedo that future and still gets a pay-out. If you have a job and you quit because you didn't like the job, you shouldn't get unemployment benefits. That's supposed to be for people who get 'laid off' through actually 'no fault of their own'.

So, in a sense, a 'no fault divorce' should have the consequence that you don't get your share, because you're just quitting.
 

Bokanovsky

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It's more about 'going into business' with your wife to 'build a future together', so you should both have stakes in that future.

The 'no fault divorce' is disadvantage for men in the sense that it's a 'breach of marital contract' that one person gets to torpedo that future and still gets a pay-out. If you have a job and you quit because you didn't like the job, you shouldn't get unemployment benefits. That's supposed to be for people who get 'laid off' through actually 'no fault of their own'.

So, in a sense, a 'no fault divorce' should have the consequence that you don't get your share, because you're just quitting.
It's even worse than what you are describing. A woman could cheat on her husband, turn the kids against him, fail to perform her "marital duties" and still get the full payout because it's "no fault". In the employment context, it would be analogous to an employee stealing money from his company, harassing his fellow workers, vandalizing the company car, defaming his boss on social media...and still getting full severance pay.
 
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AmsterdamAssassin

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It's even worse than what you are describing.
Probably, again depending on where you live.

It's a lot less dramatic here, in The Netherlands, but even if the men don't get violated in the divorce proceedings, the majority has to pay alimony related to their income, especially when there are kids.

On the other hand, if someone wants a speedy divorce, both parents need to be amicable enough to set up a co-parenting contract with a lawyer, where they specify exactly who 'gets the kids' and when and where the kids are registered and who owes who alimony and how much. I know how this benefits the unhurried partner: my wife was impatient to 'start her new life', which resulted in our kids registered to my domicile and my ex-wife paying me alimony and other childcare costs, as well as restriction on where she can take the kids without my permission.

If she hadn't agreed with my terms and conditions, I could've nixed the co-parenting contract and she'd have to wait a year to get the co-parenting decided by a judge. Apart from not wanting to wait, she wanted to sign a mortgage and buy a house by herself. And she was about to work in the IT and she sure couldn't take care of the kids during the working week (I had been stay-at-home-dad), so I had her over a barrel.
 

AmsterdamAssassin

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fail to perform her "martial duties" and
Well, she didn't enjoy training sword with me because of my laughter every time I 'cut' her throat with my bokken.
 

BeExcellent

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The answer to your question @Duke is yes. But its not a financial thing so much as its an emotional security thing.

As you know its commitment at another level.

I've always seen it as the settlement of the issue of dating. As in 'Well that's settled, now we can get on with the rest of life, and this is my spouse, come what may".....

So to me it represents a change in focus. You've got the whole marriage thing handled, this is my husband/wife and thats that. You can graduate to building your life together with the marriage as the foundation.

It does not mean you neglect the spouse at all, quite the opposite. It is a gateway into something deeper & more meaningful.
 

RickTheToad

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I've had a few women tell me that being married helps them feel secure in a relationship instead of simply being in a committed live in long term relationship without the marriage part.

It doesn't change my thoughts on marriage, but it does make me wonder if it helps alleviate anxiety for the female which causes other problems. And I'm talking solid, genuine, caring women. Not some gold digger, wants the ring, disney fantasy princess wanting the experience type.
As with everything in modern life, blame California for fvcking it up.

"In 1969, Governor Ronald Reagan of California made what he later admitted was one of the biggest mistakes of his political life. Seeking to eliminate the strife and deception often associated with the legal regime of fault-based divorce, Reagan signed the nation's first no-fault divorce bill. The new law eliminated the need for couples to fabricate spousal wrongdoing in pursuit of a divorce; indeed, one likely reason for Reagan's decision to sign the bill was that his first wife, Jane Wyman, had unfairly accused him of "mental cruelty" to obtain a divorce in 1948. But no-fault divorce also gutted marriage of its legal power to bind husband and wife, allowing one spouse to dissolve a marriage for any reason — or for no reason at all."


The Evolution of Divorce | National Affairs
 

Mertz09

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I'm sure they feel more secure in a marriage, especially when it becomes time to break up.


It would probably alleviate their anxiety, but I can guarantee you that their 'anxiety' or 'insecurity' is not necessarily a bad thing. As discussed in the thread about 'walking away', if a woman knows you're able to walk away from the relationship (because you have options available and are not 'bound' to her), she's less likely to become a PITA.
I agree 100%
 

Mertz09

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It's more about 'going into business' with your wife to 'build a future together', so you should both have stakes in that future.

The 'no fault divorce' is disadvantage for men in the sense that it's a 'breach of marital contract' that one person gets to torpedo that future and still gets a pay-out. If you have a job and you quit because you didn't like the job, you shouldn't get unemployment benefits. That's supposed to be for people who get 'laid off' through actually 'no fault of their own'.

So, in a sense, a 'no fault divorce' should have the consequence that you don't get your share, because you're just quitting.
Once again I agree 100%
 

Bokanovsky

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The answer to your question @Duke is yes. But its not a financial thing so much as its an emotional security thing.

As you know its commitment at another level.
Considering that more than 50% of marriages end up in divorce (and more than 80% of divorces are initiated by women), it's hard to accept this argument at face value. If women truly valued "commitment at another level", they wouldn't be the initiators of divorce in the vast majority of cases.
 

AmsterdamAssassin

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Considering that more than 50% of marriages and end up in divorce (and more than 80% of divorces are initiated by women), it's hard to accept this argument at face value. If women truly valued "commitment at another level", they wouldn't be the initiators of divorce in the vast majority cases.
Indeed.
I'm sorry, @BeExcellent, but maybe your approach to marriage is like you describe, but the overwhelming majority of women use marriage to lockdown a useful man, knowing they can ruin his life in a divorce will keep him obedient. And that ditching him when he stops being useful is easy and profitable.
 

Millard Fillmore

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As with everything in modern life, blame California for fvcking it up.

"In 1969, Governor Ronald Reagan of California made what he later admitted was one of the biggest mistakes of his political life. Seeking to eliminate the strife and deception often associated with the legal regime of fault-based divorce, Reagan signed the nation's first no-fault divorce bill. The new law eliminated the need for couples to fabricate spousal wrongdoing in pursuit of a divorce; indeed, one likely reason for Reagan's decision to sign the bill was that his first wife, Jane Wyman, had unfairly accused him of "mental cruelty" to obtain a divorce in 1948. But no-fault divorce also gutted marriage of its legal power to bind husband and wife, allowing one spouse to dissolve a marriage for any reason — or for no reason at all."


The Evolution of Divorce | National Affairs
I'd rather someone tell me they don't want to be in a marriage anymore than accuse me of fukked up shyt to get out of it. Reagan must have forgotten what Wyman did to him or was trying to appear more "traditional" to get votes.

This is why relationships with paperwork for ostensibly romantic reasons are pointless. Don't get into a threeway with the gov't unless it solves a problem (like residency).
 

pipeman84

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I've had a few women tell me that being married helps them feel secure in a relationship instead of simply being in a committed live in long term relationship without the marriage part.

It doesn't change my thoughts on marriage, but it does make me wonder if it helps alleviate anxiety for the female which causes other problems. And I'm talking solid, genuine, caring women. Not some gold digger, wants the ring, disney fantasy princess wanting the experience type.
100% this. Baring some exceptional circumstances, when a woman is above a certain age, somewhere in the 25-30yrs range, it becomes strange to introduce a guy she's with as her boyfriend/partner. What she's basically sub-comunicating loud and clear is that the guy doesn't find her good enough to be his wife. She knows it, the person who listens knows is too, 100% if she's a woman, less than that if it's a man, depending on how aware he is.
I believe that men lose 1-2 SMV points in their wife's eyes only, when they get married.
I would argue that men gain 1-2 SMV points in the wife's eyes. It all depends on the dynamics of their relationship. If you're the leader of the relationship, and she sees you as a prize, marrying her is like giving her a big present. Why would she view less of you? If you give your kid a big present, does she love you less? That doesn't make sense to me. On the other hand, if the guy is a beta, a money mule she settles for after being dumped by enough bad boys, and there is no real love there, then yes, the relationship will go downhill after marriage. She's attained her goal and doesn't have to pretend as much that she loves the guy.
 

SW15

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I've had a few women tell me that being married helps them feel secure in a relationship instead of simply being in a committed live in long term relationship without the marriage part.

It doesn't change my thoughts on marriage, but it does make me wonder if it helps alleviate anxiety for the female which causes other problems. And I'm talking solid, genuine, caring women. Not some gold digger, wants the ring, disney fantasy princess wanting the experience type.
One of the Iron Rules of Tomassi is not to live with girlfriends long term.

I like extended relationships without having to live with a woman or marry her.

Some think it buys them some badge of respectability - it could be generational.
This is true and even a lot of Millennials (currently ages 28-43) so still younger believe this.
 

Barrister

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I have to agree with @Bokanovsky . Putting a ring on the woman's finger is the quickest way to go from hero to doormat in a woman's eyes. Multiply that ten-fold once you begin having children with her.

You keep a woman on her toes by withholding that ultimate commitment. Some women will exit if you aren't willing to give it up eventually. But frankly, having learned the hard way, your best bet is to keep a non-marital LTR going as long as you can. That way the exit is much easier legally and financially.
 
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