Failed relationship analysis - I'd like to know if I screwed up?

[SteR]

So a few months ago I met someone while living abroad. Things got off to a great start and I tried going over to her country for a bit to see if I could make things work (original thread here: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/index....some-outside-perspective.234977/#post-2354552)

Unfortunately it didn't work out, however I've spent a bit of time wondering what happened and I'd like to hear what you guys think - maybe I made some glaringly obvious mistakes? If so, I'd just like to learn from this and move on..

So anyway, the first week I arrived things seemed to be fine. She made a comment about how it upset her that I didn't keep in touch with her very often while I was sorting my life back home (I deliberately kept my distance - I didn't want to smother her). But once back together she seemed to forget about this. It does make me question whether I should've put more effort in though?

Anyway once we were together again she told me she was struggling at work. She'd actually been given time off for panic attacks. On her first day back she got talking with a friend who advised her to go on a spiritual retreat in South America to help her deal with her problems. That same day she acted very distant with me so I told her I'd leave her be while she processes her thoughts.

The next couple of days seem to pass as normal but then we go for a walk one evening, and randomly she mentions she won't be staying in this country in another 2 months. Instantly alarm bells start ringing because I've basically picked up and moved out here to see her, and she's telling me she's heading off.

One thing I will mention as I think it's significant: Her PMS symptoms kicked in a day or so before this. I only mention it because her character changes big time during this period: Over the time I knew her, she became incredibly cold and moody during this time.. basically this wasn't the ideal time for her to be having these conversations with me.

Anyway we talked it out and I told her I felt I'd been put in an awkward position: We needed time to get to know each other yet I didn't want to ask her to commit to anything because we were still learning about one another - there was a chance we weren't actually compatible. The major problem was I was in a country where I knew nobody, had no social network and didn't work in an office (I worked on my own in the apartment). I was very alone. The only way I was going to make new friends was by joining clubs etc but I needed to know she'd be around before I spent money signing up to something. Obviously I feel I was operating from a position of weakness here, but I didn't see any other way of handling this?

Anyway she agrees that we put each other first and if it doesn't work out she'll go to her retreat.

A few days later I'm round her apartment and she's complaining about how dirty the girls she lives with are. She then drops the line "oh it doesn't matter, I won't be here in a month anyway..". I call her out on this and pretty much realise that we're finished. She says she's "not sure about us". She said she knew with me she'd be stable but she wanted 'butterflies'. The silly thing is when the relationship started off this was exactly what she was getting. Her IL was through the roof. But it seems the moment I actually turned up in her country it started going down hill. My suspicion is that I gave her too much of myself before she had commit - there was no uncertainty. If we were back in the original country we were in, there were a lot of girls competing for my attention.. I can't help but feel a bit of dread would've changed the dynamic, but while I was on her turf I was completely helpless. I suppose it was almost like I'd lost my power?

I do question my decision to go see her but as far as I can see it, there were 2 options: 1) try and make a go of it under poor circumstances or 2) just call it off and always wonder.

Anyway I told her that I'm not wasting my time and would fly back home the next day. I do so, then the following day when I'm back home she calls me up and starts backtracking: "Oh I didn't mean I wasn't going to be with you, I just meant I wasn't going to be in the apartment.." blah blah. I told her it's over. If she feels anything she's welcome to come to my country but I wouldn't be returning.

I realise I've droned on a bit here, but I just want to get all of this out of my system, see the mistakes for what they were and try to learn from them. Then I can just forget all of this and chalk it up to experience.

Thanks for taking the time to read, ha.

 

[Desdinova]

You should have moved to her country because of other reasons: work, climate, cheap housing, etc. Moving to another country because you're interested in a woman is the worst way to build a new life. You need to build your life upon the foundation of your own morals and values. If you build your life on the foundation of another person, your life will come crumbling down once that person leaves you. That's exactly what has happened here.

There will be lots and lots of women who are wrong for you. You need to learn and accept this. Once you fully realize that, you will NEVER build your life on the foundation of a woman. It's too much to start building your life from scratch over and over.

 

[SteR]

You should have moved to her country because of other reasons: work, climate, cheap housing, etc. Moving to another country because you're interested in a woman is the worst way to build a new life. You need to build your life upon the foundation of your own morals and values. If you build your life on the foundation of another person, your life will come crumbling down once that person leaves you. That's exactly what has happened here.

There will be lots and lots of women who are wrong for you. You need to learn and accept this. Once you fully realize that, you will NEVER build your life on the foundation of a woman. It's too much to start building your life from scratch over and over.

You know, I think you're smack on the money here - this seems to be the biggest lesson I've learned from this. I think before I went I rationalised to myself that I'd be able to handle it but the truth is I should never have made her the priority.

Maybe it was never supposed to work out. Maybe it happened purely for this lesson...

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

By going there you moved into her Frame. In the future you want to make sure you keep your frame, then if a woman is worthy of you, she can be part of your frame.

If you haven't already, check out Rollo's writings on the subject.

-Augustus-

 

[oOh Nasty]

So a few months ago I met someone while living abroad. Things got off to a great start and I tried going over to her country for a bit to see if I could make things work (original thread here: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/index....some-outside-perspective.234977/#post-2354552)

Ah. I remember giving my input months back. At the least, you knew exactly what was coming, because a few of us posters predicted exactly what ended up happening anyways.

So, now you understand and are now aware of what you were oblivious to back then (that you had no frame control at all while this was happening). I'll pinpoint a few things to further expand your knowledge on where your thinking and mindset went wrong, at least IMHO.

So anyway, the first week I arrived things seemed to be fine.

By fine, did you mean that things were neutral? Was she giving you lots of affection? Was she acting happy to see you? Or was she nonchalant about your presence? Don't forget that the opposite of love is not hate. What you want to try to keep her from feeling is indifferent. I'm under the impression that she started not to care.

(I deliberately kept my distance - I didn't want to smother her

Keeping your distance doesn't do much for you when she hasn't invested much to begin with. I think she already knew that she had you in her frame, so any deliberate plays at you having any kind of life outside of her wouldn't work as well. If anything, it was probably just an annoyance to her and she knew it was an attempt for you to try to get a of one-up on her. How did she express this? Did she say "I'm upset that you..." or was she more like "why don't you talk to me more?" If it was the former, you're in her frame.

Anyway once we were together again she told me she was struggling at work.

Does she ever tell you anything positive about her life with sincerity? Always being negative is not only a red flag, but also may be a projection about her attraction towards you. In my experience, women will usually make an effort to balance out any negative things she tells me with positive things, as she's afraid of me seeing her as a downer.

She'd actually been given time off for panic attacks. On her first day back she got talking with a friend who advised her to go on a spiritual retreat in South America to help her deal with her problems.

More red flags, possible BPD traits, or signs of low interest. A woman who agrees with someone telling her she needs to go to a retreat usually has issues. A chick who is really into you would be careful at letting you know how f*cked up she is. Let alone, a woman you're exclusive with shouldn't be going on retreats to other countries by herself to tame her BPD tendencies. But, why would anyone want to be exclusive with a BPDish b*tch in the first place. Get my drift?

The next couple of days seem to pass as normal but then we go for a walk one evening, and randomly she mentions she won't be staying in this country in another 2 months. Instantly alarm bells start ringing because I've basically picked up and moved out here to see her, and she's telling me she's heading off.

Fishy, yet unsurprising. You don't need me or anyone else to tell me that she's looking/waiting for her chance to get away from you.

One thing I will mention as I think it's significant: Her PMS symptoms kicked in a day or so before this. I only mention it because her character changes big time during this period: Over the time I knew her, she became incredibly cold and moody during this time.. basically this wasn't the ideal time for her to be having these conversations with me.

Insignificant, IMO. As stated before, a woman who's into you will try to keep you from experiencing her bad sides. Too much IDGAF from her.

The major problem was I was in a country where I knew nobody...

...Obviously I feel I was operating from a position of weakness here, but I didn't see any other way of handling this?

Your weakness isn't that you were in a country with no connections. As a man, you always have the necessary tools to build yourself up no matter where you are. Your weakness is that you didn't have a solid frame which consisted of indifference towards a woman. You wanted connections and friends in order to not seem to weak to a woman. That's weak. Your need for approval stems from your need for approval. As stated in your initial thread, recipe for disaster. As cliche as it is to say, your change needed to happen from within.

Anyway she agrees that we put each other first and if it doesn't work out she'll go to her retreat.

It's very important that you said this so I can point it out. Even for women who have high interest, never make logical deals with women. A woman will never be on the same level with you when it comes to relationship deals. There's so much proof of beta relationship deals that go down the drain. Women you date aren't relationship business partners. They're more like intuitive creates that are always on guard and testing to see if you are worthy enough for them to submit to. Also, for her to mention that "If it doesn't work out, she'll go to her retreat," is her way of rejecting you in a smoother manner.

The rest of your post is just more proof after proof that you should have bailed ASAP. Every single one of your questions is based around her. It's pretty much everything that you were warned about in your other post.

I have now realized that no matter how much you try to tell another person what he should do, it's too difficult for the person in the situation to change his mind because he's so invested. He will listen to others, but he'll still rationalize his way into continuing into the abyss. So, in that sense, this experience was necessary. Glad you came out alive.

 

[SteR]

Ah. I remember giving my input months back. At the least, you knew exactly what was coming, because a few of us posters predicted exactly what ended up happening anyways.

So, now you understand and are now aware of what you were oblivious to back then (that you had no frame control at all while this was happening). I'll pinpoint a few things to further expand your knowledge on where your thinking and mindset went wrong, at least IMHO.

I remember your input, and I was well aware of what I was up against before I went over there. Like I said in the original thread: Either I went over to her and gave it a try or I called it off there and then, and I wasn't ready to call it off at that point. I would have always wondered "what if?".

My biggest problem was I underestimated how strong I'd be while completely alone over there. It's amazing how quickly I started to mentally unravel after a few days.. second-guessing myself, over-analyzing everything. By the end of the second week I was mentally a wreck. Usually I could just go and blow off some steam with friends/family but there was no outlet. I admit I totally lost the frame but I had to experience this first-hand.

By fine, did you mean that things were neutral? Was she giving you lots of affection? Was she acting happy to see you? Or was she nonchalant about your presence? Don't forget that the opposite of love is not hate. What you want to try to keep her from feeling is indifferent. I'm under the impression that she started not to care.

She was definitely giving me lots of affection when I arrived - I'm no fool when it comes to reading interest. The first signs of trouble occurred after she had this talk with her friend and became convinced she needed to head to this retreat. I agree with what you say though - I certainly would've been aware if she was showing apathy.

Keeping your distance doesn't do much for you when she hasn't invested much to begin with. I think she already knew that she had you in her frame, so any deliberate plays at you having any kind of life outside of her wouldn't work as well. If anything, it was probably just an annoyance to her and she knew it was an attempt for you to try to get a of one-up on her. How did she express this? Did she say "I'm upset that you..." or was she more like "why don't you talk to me more?" If it was the former, you're in her frame.

I told her up front that I don't text/call a lot. I didn't apologise for it because she was aware beforehand. But I do wonder if somehow that caused her IL to drop - she mentioned another guy we knew (who was trying to get into her pants) was messaging her all the time. But at the end of the day, I am who I am. I'm not going to message her all the time just because she wants me to.

Does she ever tell you anything positive about her life with sincerity? Always being negative is not only a red flag, but also may be a projection about her attraction towards you. In my experience, women will usually make an effort to balance out any negative things she tells me with positive things, as she's afraid of me seeing her as a downer.

...

More red flags, possible BPD traits, or signs of low interest. A woman who agrees with someone telling her she needs to go to a retreat usually has issues. A chick who is really into you would be careful at letting you know how f*cked up she is. Let alone, a woman you're exclusive with shouldn't be going on retreats to third world countries by herself to tame her BPD tendencies. But, why would anyone want to be exclusive with a BPDish b*tch in the first place. Get my drift?

In all honesty she was actually a very positive girl - I think that's something that attracted me to her. She had unfortunate things happen to her in her past but she didn't dwell on them or let them get her down. I admired her for that.

It was at this point that she revealed a bit more about her past: She wouldn't go into details but apparently she'd suffered some sort of abuse as a child. I need to preface this by saying I've been involved with women who've been sexually abused in the past and she seemed to have a better handle on it than most. Believe me, when I heard this I realised it was a major red flag but like I said, I did admire the way she faced it and tried to keep positive.

I realise it'd be easy for me to call her a BPD b!tch at this point but the truth is, she wasn't. She clearly had some trouble and was doing her best to work through it, in whatever way she saw fit. Maybe down the line this would've become a major issue.. I don't know. Fortunately I've never been in an LTR with a nutcase

Fishy, yet unsurprising. You don't need me or anyone else to tell me that she's looking/waiting for her chance to get away from you.

Yup. Truthfully at this point I knew she had one foot out the door and I even if I didn't admit it to myself at this time I knew things were over.

Insignificant, IMO. As stated before, a woman who's into you will try to keep you from experiencing her bad sides. Too much IDGAF from her.

Yea I agree with you here.

Your weakness isn't that you were in a country with no connections. As a man, you always have the necessary tools to build yourself up no matter where you are. Your weakness is that you didn't have a solid frame which consisted of indifference towards a woman. You wanted connections and friends in order to not seem to weak to a woman. That's weak. Your need for approval stems from your need for approval. As stated in your initial thread, recipe for disaster. As cliche as it is to say, your change needed to happen from within.

There was no 'need for approval' here, and I wasn't trying to 'avoid being weak'. I wanted connections because I wanted connections - humans are social creatures and thrive on relationships, it's got nothing to do with how I appear to her. But I think you're right about having the tools to build myself up - I'm actually looking to move somewhere different now.. but this time I'm looking to go somewhere I want to be rather than going for someone else. I think that's definitely the difference because no matter what happens with women out there, I'll still be content (or hopefully content) living in that place.

It's very important that you said this so I can point it out. Even for women who have high interest, never make logical deals with women. A woman will never be on the same level with you when it comes to relationship deals. There's so much proof of beta relationship deals that go down the drain. Women you date aren't relationship business partners. They're more like intuitive creates that are always on guard and testing to see if you are worthy enough for them to submit to. Also, for her to mention that "If it doesn't work out, she'll go to her retreat," is her way of rejecting you in a smoother manner.

Yes I agree. Truth be told, I think I realised it was doomed at this point and I was doing whatever I could to stop the sinking ship.

The rest of your post is just more proof after proof that you should have bailed ASAP. Every single one of your questions is based around her. It's pretty much everything that you were warned about in your other post.

I think that's another realisation I had: I was more invested in her than she was in me. I realise guys fall faster than girls but I must say, up to the point of me actually moving there, her IL was certainly greater than mine. I actually had another girl I was trying to set up a date with while back in my home country. I think once I got over there she realised she had me and the challenge was gone. Lesson learned.

I have now realized that no matter how much you try to tell another person what he should do, it's too difficult for the person in the situation to change his mind because he's so invested. He will listen to others, but he'll still rationalize his way into continuing into the abyss. So, in that sense, this experience was necessary. Glad you came out alive.

I see what you're saying, and it's easy to look at this situation objectively and point out what to do from your viewpoint (heck, I do it all on the time when commenting on these forums) but dealing with it first-hand is very different. Like I said in the very beginning: I either gave it a shot or I walked away. There was no way I was going to walk away as I knew I'd always wonder "what if?". Even knowing what I know now, I still would have done the same. It was a painful experience and even though it didn't work out, it was still worth it. I mean in the grand scheme of things I only lost 2 weeks of my life. IDGAF about the money spent, I can always make that back.. but at least I gave it a shot

Anyway I do appreciate your response. I think the main thing I've learned here is not to make the woman my focus. I knew this intellectually but now I've got a lovely emotional scar, haha.

 

[oOh Nasty]

I realise it'd be easy for me to call her a BPD b!tch at this point but the truth is, she wasn't.

After looking over everything again, I agree that she probably wasn't as messed up as I made her sound. I would actually find it kind of weird nowadays if a woman wasn't a wreck in at least one sort of way.

All in all, scars are good for us. They keep us grounded and will be useful as reference points in future endeavors.

Best of luck!