Electric Cars

[Stuffnu]

All of this is BS.
Cars are becoming more fuel and emission efficient with each passing day.
Those with high end performance and gas guzzlers are not going to care.
While us steerage bicker over EV’s, China will continue to decimate climate with coal energy production, while getting rich on Lithium and ”green” based minerals.
Snake oil sales at its finest.

 

[zekko]

Test drive one. It will make sense.

They may be fun to drive, but I don't see how it makes sense to buy a car that doesn't do what I want it to do, which includes going on long trips. I'm retired and it's fun to travel.

 

[Reyaj]

So maybe Hybrids are the answer

 

[EyeBRollin]

All of this is BS.
Cars are becoming more fuel and emission efficient with each passing day.
Those with high end performance and gas guzzlers are not going to care.

Gasoline cars are obsolete. Clinging to a flip phone in a smart phone world.

They may be fun to drive, but I don't see how it makes sense to buy a car that doesn't do what I want it to do, which includes going on long trips. I'm retired and it's fun to travel.

Tragedy of the commons.

 

[EyeBRollin]

So maybe Hybrids are the answer

They are a nice transition. Plug-in hybrids are both electric vehicles and gasoline cars.. in one vehicle. However, their sales are poor. Consumer education problem.

 

[lost_blackbird]

They're not faster. Quicker off the line maybe but not faster. I used to have an Audi S3 (310bhp) which
was built for use on German autobahns and therefore would sit all day long at its (limited) top speed of
155mph. Mine was remapped, derestricted and had a few choice but minor upgrades and was capable
of GPS confirmed 170mph which I put to test on a few motorways in the small hours of the morning. It
was a thirsty old thing when ragging it but that's the same with any performance car. My MPG ranged
from 7 in full turbo nutter bastard mode to about 40 in driving miss daisy mode. I then focused
my speed addiction on to motorcycles where I can get a whole lot more thrills for lots less cash, for the
same money that German shopping car cost me I could buy some real motorcycle exotica. Ducati,
MV Augusta and Aprillia to name a few. Very expensive to insure over here though, and the lack of dealer
support kept me onto more mainstream bikes.

 

[AureliusMaximus]

What are your thoughts? I want to hear the pros and cons...

Its a "joke" because they are still powered by fossil fuels. Mind you that large parts of the electricity is still powered by energy sources such as coal, gas, oil and even worse nuclear power which by-product is so toxic and dangerous that is has to be stored for 150 000 years before its is considered "safe" to handle again. Alone that is way longer than the modern human race has existed.

On top of that it the environmental damage is twice of producing an electric car compared to a car fitted with a combustion engine in both terms of energy needed and resources required.

Now top that with that there isn't enough silver of lithium in the earths crust to mine the amounts of these metals required to make this "sustainable change" and this isn't just about replacing all the existing cars, busses, trucks, airplanes etc., not its the whole infrastructure built up from just building a reactor to all other machines and technologies that needs to be replaced. It is simply not enough of it.
for example at current rate there is produced yearly:
95 170 tons of lithium and the required amount of Lithium needed to make this "environmental sustainable change" is currently 944 150 293 tons which will require and take 9 920,7 years to mine at current yearly mining rate.

Graphite, (Used by/ for example to produce nuclear reactors, the electrical Industry, electrodes etc.), the current yearly worldwide production is 1 556 00 tones and it will take require 8 973 640 257 tons to make the change to non-fossil and years required to mine it at current production rate is "only" 3287,9 years.

Now to add a bonus I haven't even started mentioned rare earth metals needed so lets jump right here too with an example:
Germanium which is a rare earth metal needed for many technologies including modern rechargeable batteries is currently mined by an yearly rate of 143 tons per year and the required amount of Germanium to make the sustainable change to non-fossil is currently 4 163 162 tons which will at the current yearly mining rate take 29 113,0 years.

Sources:
Geological Survey of Finland: https://www.gtk.fi/en/
Sustainable Minerals Institute: https://smi.uq.edu.au/

So yes from that view point it is a joke, and this change to non-fossil is actually unsustainable in itself. It cannot be done with current available technologies available to mankind right now.

We, the human race are simply not ready as we do not have the technology (yet), to make such a change away from fossil fuels.

So when you sit in your electric car and are bragging how much of environmental friendly you are nothing but a useful fool and hypocrite as your car is an environmental mess too as long as it is fueled by fossil produced energy and is a total environmental disaster to produce..


Yes; I do agree we need to change in the long run, but as of now simply do not have the tools to do it. I do hope we will have the technology in the future, but for now it is not going to happen.

 

[BriBri]

This has been a fun read. Obviously, there are those who admire the EV concept and those who prefer traditional ICE products. And, I'll throw another interesting question into the fray.....What would happen to EV interest and sales volumes if the government wasn't creating a degree of artificial demand via its subsidies and related 'green agenda' promulgations (especially California's restrictive regulations)?

 

[corsica]

Here's an example on how electric trucks can't compare to diesel ones. Elon Musk is full of crap when he says Tesla semi is ready for production:
If you don't want to watch the video, it shows how the range goes down 3X faster when towing.

 

[EyeBRollin]

They're not faster. Quicker off the line maybe but not faster. I used to have an Audi S3 (310bhp) which
was built for use on German autobahns and therefore would sit all day long at its (limited) top speed of
155mph.

They are faster for the conventional driving we do each day. You can’t safely use a performance vehicles top speed on any road in the US. That Audi still gets walked by any performance oriented EV in the quarter mile.

Its a "joke" because they are still powered by fossil fuels.

Terrible argument. Even if every EV were exclusively powered by fossils fuels (they aren’t), an EV is on average 6 times more efficient in city driving and 3 times more efficient on the highway than an ICE.

What would happen to EV interest and sales volumes if the government wasn't creating a degree of artificial demand via its subsidies and related 'green agenda' promulgations (especially California's restrictive regulations)?

How is it relevant if the demand for a new technology is “artificial” or not?

 

[lost_blackbird]

I'm not in the US, our motorways have a speed limit of 70mph, enforced mainly by clearly labelled cameras.
My Mazda warns me of these in advance as does my GPS mounted on my handlebars so you'd have to be
a complete tool to get caught speeding here. It's not uncommon here to see ordinary family cars cruising
at around 90mph wherever the cameras are not, motorcycles at 100 plus on more or less any motorway.
Our average speed cameras are front facing and there's no number plate visible from the front of a bike.
We have almost zero Police enforcement on our fastest roads. You could do 500 motorway miles a day for a
month here and not see even one Police car. Our motorways are patrolled by Highways agency vehicles whose
sole task is to co-ordinate with emergency services in the event of an accident, breakdown or lane closure.
They cannot do anything to stop speeding, they are manned by civilian staff, my brother in law does this for a living

I drove 4500 miles over there in 3 weeks doing R66 and some other locations, your speed limits make driving there
as boring as F frankly. But I'll admit I saw a lot of police with radar guns on my travels. I haven't had a speeding ticket
for well over 25 years here, I got 3 penalty points (which is deemed a minor offence as far as insurance premiums are
concerned so won't see much of a price hike) and a £40 fine. After 3 years the points are gone and your licence is clean,
you can carry up to 12 points before you get a ban. I did get caught speeding in Canada once when I was there on holiday,
that was quite a big fine considering the level of offence compared to the speeds I often drive in the UK, but of course
they couldn't endorse a UK license. Driving in New Zealand was pretty slow going too, but at least they use the correct
side of the road and it's so sparsely populated that even there I sped my arse off and rarely saw another car, never mind one
with rozzers in it.

 

[AureliusMaximus]

Here's an example on how electric trucks can't compare to diesel ones. Elon Musk is full of crap when he says Tesla semi is ready for production:
If you don't want to watch the video, it shows how the range goes down 3X faster when towing.

The whole "current thing" environmental agenda ran by our governments, NGOs and politicians is a is a total train wreck and they are full of crap attempting to sell their snake oil to the world. Like I mentioned above it is currently impossible to change from fossil fuels until we have access to technology that allows humanity to change in that direction. We cannot wait thousands of years for the change (Referring to the above with metals needed for the drastic change and first generation of environmental sustainable technology.), But they are telling people to take less showers and turn off light to save money because they are still shutting down power plants all over the world.
Strangely many nuclear plants are also suddenly offline for maintenance of broken which is something I find weird. But I leave that for another time, another discussion..

 

[member160292]

All of this is BS.
Cars are becoming more fuel and emission efficient with each passing day.
Those with high end performance and gas guzzlers are not going to care.
While us steerage bicker over EV’s, China will continue to decimate climate with coal energy production, while getting rich on Lithium and ”green” based minerals.
Snake oil sales at its finest.

EV's currently a huge, and relatively untapped market. There's going to be trillions of dollars for the industry and high tech companies are going to grab their piece of the pie. Semiconductors are partnering with auto manufacturers to create chips for functional safety, ADAS, infotainment, etc. Even your non-semiconductor tech companies like Apple, Amazon and Nvidia are designing their own chips for automotive. Apple revamped their EV development after they ditched it 5 years ago, think CarPlay on steroids for next-gen transportation

 

[EyeBRollin]

The whole "current thing" environmental agenda ran by our governments, NGOs and politicians is a is a total train wreck and they are full of crap attempting to sell their snake oil to the world. Like I mentioned above it is currently impossible to change from fossil fuels until we have access to technology that allows humanity to change in that direction. We cannot wait thousands of years for the change (Referring to the above with metals needed for the drastic change and first generation of environmental sustainable technology.), But they are telling people to take less showers and turn off light to save money because they are still shutting down power plants all over the world.
Strangely many nuclear plants are also suddenly offline for maintenance of broken which is something I find weird. But I leave that for another time, another discussion..

As we see above, the argument to preserve the ICE typically devolves to some fusion of nostalgia and conspiracy theory politics. EVs are objectively better in most aspects - acceleration, handling, safety, tech, operational costs, and environmental footprint.

 

[corsica]

Elon Musk is going to save humanity by sending us to Mars, lol!

I don't short Tesla because fanboys think Elon Musk is Tony Stark. They buy Tesla stock when he tweets some outrageous fantasy.


Now the con man is saying a mining company in Texas should be build because lithium is getting expensive. Seriously? When you build cars were 80% of the cost is the battery, do you think it's sustainable?
And if you have a phone or any appliance with batteries, you know how battery loses performance after a few years.
A Tesla model S 2013 sells for $30k on eBay. In good condition and from a dealership. I guess they'll give you $20k. So imagine paying $150k (same trim) for a car that's worth (almost) 10X less. Range might be 50% if you're lucky. Look at Nissan Leaf. They're worthless with a range that can't take you to work and back.

 

[EyeBRollin]

Elon Musk is going to save humanity by sending us to Mars, lol!

I don't short Tesla because fanboys think Elon Musk is Tony Stark.


Now the con man is saying a mining company in Texas should be build because lithium is getting expensive. Seriously?

The EV market is much bigger than Musk at this point.

When you build cars were 80% of the cost is the battery, do you think it's sustainable?

The battery is not 80% the cost of an EV.

And if you have a phone or any appliance with batteries, you know how battery loses performance after a few years.
I wonder how much a 8yo Tesla is worth today.

Some; depends on how it’s used. Tesla and GM batteries have shown to retain >90% of their maximum capacity up to 500,000 miles.

2013-2014 Tesla Model S near me are going for 25-30K.

 

[EyeBRollin]

A Tesla model S 2013 sells for $30k on eBay. In good condition and from a dealership. I guess they'll give you $20k. So imagine paying $150k (same trim) for a car that's worth (almost) 10X less. Range might be 50% if you're lucky. Look at Nissan Leaf. They're worthless with a range that can't take you to work and back.

Range on an 8 year old Tesla will be 80-90% of its rated range. Likely about 200 miles still. Most Americans drive just 40 miles per day. That is more than sufficient.

Nissan Leaf is frankly a piece of shvt, yet still has 149 miles of range, 100 miles more than enough for the average American driver.

 

[AureliusMaximus]

Now the con man is saying a mining company in Texas should be build because lithium is getting expensive. Seriously? When you build cars were 80% of the cost is the battery, do you think it's sustainable?
And if you have a phone or any appliance with batteries, you know how battery loses performance after a few years.
A Tesla model S 2013 sells for $30k on eBay. In good condition and from a dealership.

Add on top of that the 9 920,7 years years he will need to mine all the Lithium needed for it Ha ha...

(But ok to fair that number includes everything needed to be produced to make the change not just all the cars, but anyway..)

 

[Bible_Belt]

Individual ownership of vehicles will come to an end fairly soon. The future is self driving taxis, driverless Uber. These resource arguments are based upon individual ownership, which we don't need. Most cars spend most of their time sitting. We could get by with a lot fewer vehicles if we shared them.

 

[AureliusMaximus]

These resource arguments are based upon individual ownership

Actually you are not quite correct there.
The resource requirements are based and calculated on what is required in amount of metals and years to mine and to build the first generation technology units worldwide to phase out fossil fuels and replace that with the above (Although not even yet fully invented technology), mentioned. So not it is not just cars.

Its everything needed to be replaced in the society to actually successfully make the transition itself to a world only fueled by something else than fossil based energy sources.