Education and Income (US, fairly recent)

whistler

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A lot of people have been posting threads in which they wonder about careers and education. Here's some info clipped from a 2004 U.S. Census Bureau document. The data are primarily from the late 1990's, but they are probably still pretty accurate in 2006.

Projected income during your working life:

Not high school graduate --- 1 million (in 1999 dollars)
High school graduate --- 1.2
Some college --- 1.5
Associate's degree --- 1.6
Bachelor's degree --- 2.1
Master's degree --- 2.5
Professional degree --- 4.4
Doctoral degree --- 3.4





Source:

http://www.census.gov/population/pop-profile/dynamic/EdAttainment.pdf
 

diplomatic_lies

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I find it interesting how people with doctorates earn less on average, than people with regular professional degrees.
 

MrS

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Because they spend more time in University studying for it.
12 years for a doctor's degree, for example, cuts off about 7-8 years from where you would go with a master's.
 

A-Unit

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Re:

Perhaps I will do a future analysis, but those gradations in income flow quite accurately to the differences in TAX brackets. In effect, the DELTA between one level and the next isn't enough of a NET increase that warrants the investment of educational dollars.

Projected income during your working life:

Not high school graduate --- 1 million (in 1999 dollars)
High school graduate --- 1.2
Some college --- 1.5
Associate's degree --- 1.6
Bachelor's degree --- 2.1
Master's degree --- 2.5
Professional degree --- 4.4
Doctoral degree --- 3.4

For instance, a highschool graduate to college graduatate different is by this chart, about 900,000 difference. Divided by 40 working years (which is short) from 25 to 65, you have $22,500 extra. The 2.1 million corresponds to an AVERAGE of $52,500 over the lifetime of the worker. And that isn't much when it costs so much for the degree. The numbers are obviously ASKEW because they consider working mothers who enter the workforce WITHOUT the benefit of anything before it.

If you consider what a MALE would choose OVER college...

Police Officer, Army, Fire department (though some would require degrees), Construction, Electrician, Plumber, etc, however harsh they might be, ALOT of guys earn $50,000 a year early in their 20's WAY before the college graduate from a middle-ranked college does. Granted, the guys here and everywhere, want much more, in general than $50k. BUT, if you were working a trade at the tender age of 18,19, finding out what you like, saving like a mad-man, foregoing the HUGE debt-ridden problems of the youth today, AND then, perhaps used your savings at say 22, or 25 to go to college WITHOUT borrowing, you'd be materially better. PLUS, you may be able to apply your trade WHILE in college, maintaining your work experience AND earning money during a time period when most college students earn under 10k.

For the middle-class family, or one without scholarships, it makes not one damn sense, to borrow to the hilt, and then have to pay back $500/month infinatum, for 10-20 years. Not only does it prevent your saving for your kids to a large extent, but it limits your mobility and washes away side funds useful for early investing.

IMO, educational funds are all too easy to borrow because they CAN NEVER BE DISPENSED under current debt laws. Meaning, as long as you reside in the US, your credit and therefore your ability to borrow is significantly tainted until you repay these loans. And what are you borrowing FOR? To be another corporate junkie? Or do you love what you do, will do, or will you make such money that the ROI is certainly worth it?

Some kids are borrowing themselves into college, essentially PUTTING themselves in prison under the false advertisement of big riches. But what the above analysis provides is that ONGOING education is the means to a greater income, and if this is true, then why invest so heavily UPFRONT, when it's truly the BACKEND investment that will yield the GREATEST return. Moreover, employers offer programs to gain further knowledge of a specialized kind, delighting that their Chattle will seek to further imprison themselves with knowledge specific to one area.

As Carlos Castaneda said..."Power lies in the kind of Knowledge one has." No one should say education is useless, but when you consider the Professional Educations that so many of the youth today receive/received, myself included, the time related to what I got was very invaluable to say the least. The greatest education I have taught is knowledge I have acquired on my own, filling gaps where I felt I was weak, and strengthening skills I know to be powerful. This is the only education one can obtain, unless they have a mentor of whom has achieved what you desire and requires knowledge that he/she recommends to attain the same kind of success. Otherwise, taking knowledge from one who has not accomplished what you have is a dead end.

Nice graphs though, but if you can find a way to ATTAIN all the knowledge that those higher ranking candidates did, WITHOUT having to INVEST that money or REPAY it, your ROI is HUGE. If not, calculate carefully.



A-Unit
 

Le Parisien

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Being a big time successful "diploma collector":whistle: , I'd say that sure, the most important things will be learned "in real life", "on the fields", not in college.

But the most valuable asset that my big azz diplomas provide me is this: opportunities. The opportunities to actually be on the best spots to progress in life and the opportunities to get in the best fields to gain experience. Sure almost anyone on these good positions would be able to learn and progress very quickly, but in order to be given that chance, you need very good college degrees at the first place. Unless of course your parents are so influential that they can get you on the best spots anyway...:rolleyes:
 

madgame

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I feel the same way about it as LeParisien. Over here I have to go through two periods of college (similar to the bachelor/master's thing in the US, but in case you quit after your bachelor's you don't get any degree...that sucks I know ;-))..and the first half of it is mostly a waste of time, there is one subject which I'm really focussed on which I wanna specialize in after the first period (and from that point on about 2 thirds of the classes I take in college will be classes in that field, which I'm really looking forward to), but the other 6 or 7 subjects except for some exceptions really are a waste of time and I won't remember anything about it, when I (hopefully) get to the second period of my studies...

However, that's how it works. Basically you have to go through that to get a chance to do what you want... Plus, you can see it as a shyt test not by a HBwhatever but by an employer. They like people who have a college degree, b/c that way they see if they can deal with the whole bull**** and if they're ambitious, whatever..
 

Bible_Belt

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The PHDs are a little lower in income because they tend to go into academia and research. "Professional degree" includes law and mba degrees, holders of which tend to occupy the ultra-high paying CEO and corporate executive jobs.
 

whistler

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More numbers (same document) from 2004 data:

ANNUAL INCOME:

Not high school graduate --- 18,734 (USD)
High school graduate --- 27,915
Bachelor's degree --- 51,206
Advanced degree* --- 74,602


* includes: master's degrees, lawyers, doctors, Ph.D.'s, dentists, etc.

I assume these are medians rather than means. Likewise, the averages used to generate the numbers above were probably medians. If that's the case, exceptionally successful people with only high school diplomas probably aren't reflected in the numbers. Still, those are, by definition, extremely rare people.



An aside:

A-UNIT has a good point re: the real worth of investing in a degree. It would be foolish to discount the opportunity cost of paying off debt rather than investing the money (ditto for earning a salary rather than gaining debt while in school).

If nothing else -- as people have been saying -- degrees open more doors. Sometimes you can't be what you want to be without a degree (and perhaps a specific one). (That's certainly true in my case.)
 

John_Taylor

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Mitch_Mustain said:
college is overrated
Agree to an extent. If you know where you want to go and it doesn't EXPLICITLY require a professional degree (e.g. doctor, lawyer, engineer* blah blah blah), you can get there via being talented and bright.

I'd say this is a A means B but B does not necessarily mean A type of thing. If you have a excellent degree, it does mean you have brightess. However, many talented people do not have excellent degrees.

The absense of a degree or even a high school diploma does not mean you will live a life of pain and suffering. If so, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Andrew Carngie (don't believe he had ANY formal education!), John D R, Cornelius Vanderbilt (left at age 12!) would be working or should have died working minimal wage and living in rented apartments.

However, as an employer, it is safe to say that great school attract bright people. That is not to say that these school PRODUCE them, but most get the Harvard, Yale, because they have accomplishments. I violate that myself, but good school generally attract talent.




*arguably
 

diplomatic_lies

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Theres nothing wrong with college. If everyone quit high school to become successful businessmen, who would be our doctors, engineers, researchers, and accountants?

Heck, even a company requires many degree-based positions. Some dude who read "Dummies Guide to Finance" isn't going to be able to run the financial department of General Electric.
 

Caesar20

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if everyone went to college to become a dentist, lawyer, engineer.... who would be our construction workers, car mechanics and other "low" professions?
 

reyalp

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Those numbers seem very flakey.

I'm 22, and if my pay rate were to stay the same, without so much as adjustment for inflation, I stand to make about 6.4 million dollars by the time I turn 65.

I wonder if the Doctoral degree includes pharmacists, as I have friends who are pharmacists, and they make a ridiculous amount of money.
 

whistler

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reyalp said:
Those numbers seem very flakey.
I doubt the numbers are flaky. They're from the census bureau; and, no, they don't account for inflation.

I'm 22, and if my pay rate were to stay the same, without so much as adjustment for inflation, I stand to make about 6.4 million dollars by the time I turn 65.
You should probably start your own financial advice thread...

I wonder if the Doctoral degree includes pharmacists, as I have friends who are pharmacists, and they make a ridiculous amount of money.
Until recently you needed a PharmBS to be a pharmacist. My impression was that it usually took 5 years for the bachelor's.

Now I'm pretty sure you need a PharmD. I think it takes four years... But I also think you can begin a PharmD program with only a couple of years of undergraduate work (unlike most Ph.D. programs, you don't need a bachelor's first).

I don't know how they count the PharmD, but I bet it's under 'professional degree'.

And yeah, they make a sh!tload.
 

insanity

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this may be rambling, but i think there is validaty in it. o.k, i'm not trying to say education is a waste of time. grade 1 to 6 have served me fine.(hey that rhymed)

the best used education i got was grade 1 to 6. sure i've went to college and took plumbing and i went to 2 and half years of university before i figured it was a waste of time for me. but i discovered the answer that i was looking for.

in a post before, i looked at millionaire and billionaires who never graduated from school. how did they succeed? they had a goal, dream, a vision.

i felt cool answering that question with a smile,yes i went off the beating path!. but somebody educated asked me the question why is it that most uneducated people either are poor or just struggling to get by? i was dumbfounded!!!! i said good question. then it hit me.

the answer...i said if you were to ask the poor or the struggler what they wanted most out of life, they would say money or be rich. if i then asked them how would you get rich and their answer would be " I DON'T KNOW"!!!
so really they have no dream, they have no goals, and without those that is why they are poor and struggle and let mediocrity serve them.

accorrding to the forbes top 400. the uneducated man is worth 333 million dollars more then the educated man on their list. that is truth.

there are no lies that an education opens more doors for you...
it's like being really good looking, more chicks will check you out, but doesn't mean your going to get the chick
 

madgame

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The absense of a degree or even a high school diploma does not mean you will live a life of pain and suffering. If so, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Andrew Carngie (don't believe he had ANY formal education!), John D R, Cornelius Vanderbilt (left at age 12!) would be working or should have died working minimal wage and living in rented apartments.
You forgot to include AngelusPUA, he left at 15 and made it big time! haha
 
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