Don't Be Too Proud To Pursue- Flaking is Almost Universal

[Jeffst1980]

You know what's funny?

Nearly all species of female mammals exhibit a similar type of flirting behavior, in which they send an invitation to a desired male to approach then, and then, somewhat counter intuitively, run away. This would seem to indicate that requiring one to "chase" weeds out the less aggressive or "alpha" males.

But, here on these boards, a lot of guys are very much opposed to chasing girls on the grounds that it makes them lose value. While this may be true on some level, I feel as though they are missing the point. The point of pickup, as I see it, is to get the girl- not to prove to her how many options you have.

Here's the truth: If you do a lot of cold approaches involving HBs, you're going to come across A TON of flaky behavior. Conventional wisdom says that this is because she simply isn't interested enough, and this is true. However, it is ridiculous to think that a high valued HB will somehow develop high interest in a stranger right off the bat. Women build interest SLOWLY; this is why the overwhelming majority of women date guys from one of their social circles--she NEEDS to have sufficient exposure to you in a number of settings before her actions will be consistent with those of a compliant, interested woman.

As such, you are going to have to make a choice: Either confidently pursue a girl that is giving you lukewarm interest, or NEXT her and wait until you find a girl that is highly interested right from the start. I choose the former, simply because initial flakiness is NOT indicative of behavior in a relationship. In fact, I take it as a good sign that she has a healthy skepticism towards strangers.

What follows, generally, is a tiresome cat and mouse game: I'll get her on the phone and try to make plans, she'll cancel last minute; I'll back off, she'll re-establish contact; I'll try again to get her in person, etc. This might go on for several weeks! But, what I have found is that as long as she's not outright ignoring you, you WILL get her to meet up with you eventually if you persist--and from there, you should know what to do.

Now, some might say this is a waste of time, bla bla bla, but it really doesn't take long to send a bulk text message to all the flaky girls in your phone once every week or so. You never know what is going on in a girl's life that might lead her to finally take you up on your offer. I've converted a number of flakes this way, and usually in the most random manner possible. Of course, you should be meeting other girls in the meantime. And, this will not work on girls that outright ignore you--just delete them and move on.

You may lose a bit of value, but so what? Don't let your ego convince you that you're too good to make an effort to get a girl, lest you be forced to take the leftovers of guys that actually had the confidence to persist despite flaky behavior. Laugh it off, tease her about being a flake if you want, and keep trying--DON'T get angry with her or try to PROVE something to her! A high valued girl is going to make it difficult for you in the beginning, until you reach a "hook" point (usually when you sleep with her).



This philosophy can be applied to pickup situations, too. Stay in set! Don't leave as soon as you get uncomfortable, or make a mistake, or get a s#it test. If the girls are sticking around, there's no reason to jump ship. Otherwise, all your hard work is just increasing their buying temperature for the next guy that sticks around the set until closing time.

DON'T let the thought of being perceived as "creepy" stop you from showing interest in a girl, or from calling a girl that isn't all that into you yet. Lots of guys are worried about this now, since words like "creepster" and "sketchball" are tossed around so frequently by girls. Who cares?? Make no apologies for yourself as a man. The pickup artist Sinn has some excellent insights about this.

The guys that get laid the most are often the guys that try the hardest. If you want a girl, you need to pursue her. Don't NEXT her just because she isn't making it easy for you!

There's an excellent thread somewhere in the archive titled, "Confident Persistence," or something similar, that everyone should read.

 

[teacha]

whatever helps you sleep at night buddy....

 

[GettinLuckyAintLuck]

The man made some very valid points. Some girls enjoy being chased...if the juice is worth the squeeze, why not.

 

[JLW]

You make some good points. Sometimes it's not the worst thing in the world to swallow your pride.

However, if a girl flakes multiple times (like 3-4 times)....I don't see any point in pursuing. At that point, it's just irritating and disrespectful.

 

[Galactus]

I never heard "sketchball". Funny. What the hell does that mean?

I think this is a great post, written with a level of intelligence I'm not used to seeing here anymore. Whenever you find something that really works, it's usually because the solution lies in the middle between two extremes. Here the extremes are nexting a female the instant you detect any flakiness, and stalking her.

You have to push things with her a little, but know when to back off. Then assuming you didn't push too far, come back and push again. Something you learn from experience.

Thanks Jeffst.

 

[PapiChulo]

This "confident persistence" thing seems like a waste of time and goes complete against the conventional wisdom. I ve seen guys do it, watched it fairly up close and you can witness the exact moment where they just stepped a little bit too far - and there is no going back or saving it from that time on. It does come off as desperate, needy, pushy, creepy etc. from my point of view. You can hit on a chick all you want -but without enough attraction or interest, your chances are low low low regardless of what you do. You have to be smooth, confident and above women - that's the only way to have dignity and pride.


Also flakiness is simply feminine behavior, it's inability to say No the very first time - that's all. In a way, it's an act of dishonesty and weakness, thus the low quality women will abuse it. I don't see a point of pursuing somebody like that. Even if they take you up on your offer later on, it will make me wonder why.

If I deal with a flake - she goes to the very bottom of my list.

 

[Solomon]

This "confident persistence" thing seems like a waste of time and goes complete against the conventional wisdom. I ve seen guys do it, watched it fairly up close and you can witness the exact moment where they just stepped a little bit too far - and there is no going back or saving it from that time on. It does come off as desperate, needy, pushy, creepy etc. from my point of view. You can hit on a chick all you want -but without enough attraction or interest, your chances are low low low regardless of what you do. You have to be smooth, confident and above women - that's the only way to have dignity and pride.


Also flakiness is simply feminine behavior, it's inability to say No the very first time - that's all. In a way, it's an act of dishonesty and weakness, thus the low quality women will abuse it. I don't see a point of pursuing somebody like that. Even if they take you up on your offer later on, it will make me wonder why.

If I deal with a flake - she goes to the very bottom of my list.

I agree with you and I agree with the OP.

First reasons why I agree with the OP, the game isn't "black n white" like lot of guys on this site claim, sometimes when you meet a girl she may be going through a "transition" period in her life or some other things(contrary to popular belief some women are busy and have shyt going on in their lifes espeically ambitious women), and if you hit her up a few weeks later or so it might be on, but in my experience this is very, very rare. Being persistent can pay of, but once a chick flakes on you, the whole dynamic shifts.

Which brings me to a point were I don't agree with it, it goes against the prize mentality, having a chick who is lukewarm interested for you then flakes, not only plummets her interest level but it makes mine dive as well. To me like papichulo says it shows the women is low quality and has lack of respect (depending on how she flakes) Would a women flake on Brad Pitt?(hell no unless she is lesbo) even if the women's house is on fire she still would make it on the date!

I had a women flake on me, a month ago just so she could hang out with another guy, does this mean that I should give her another chance and be persistent? HELL NO, to me that is probably the worst flake ever, knowing she was on her way to see me and then BOOM, make up some b.s. excuse when I knew she went to see someone else, was not cool, to me that's an automatic NEXT! for me to pursue her shows lack of respect on my part, and there's no way she would respect me either (cause sub-consciously she already knows she can play me)

To be honest I mix it up, I may "pursue/Chase" a chick who i think may be worth my time, then there are some chicks who i just next instantly. Why do i do this? it keeps me honest as a "seducer" what good is it learning a skillset with out utilizing the tools that we are taught here i.e. The takeaway, push and pull. However to be honest if a chick flakes my interest just goes down, its a defense mechanism I've build consciously due to the fact that I loath flaking, I just hate it and find it disrespectful.

my 02 cents

 

[Falcon25]

Good post. Persistance is key. You know what, I wouldn't even call it persistence, but rather follow ups. Don't take women personal. Sometimes they have shivt going on and don't want to see anyone, not just you. But, just cut your losses short if SHE HAS SOMEONE ELSE. Otherwise, keep it on the backburner, she'll come around. A way to a woman's heart IS TIME. I text once every three weeks, and like dogs, they live in the moment. They seem to even forget flaking on me. Just like a dog forgets that I kicked him with my foot and he comes back to sit on my lap. It's very weird but true. They live in the moment. Don't next, just keep it on the side, and don't expect anything. If it works, it works, no need to next a girl who flaked on you once or twice.

 

[Poonani Maker]

What follows, generally, is a tiresome cat and mouse game: I'll get her on the phone and try to make plans, she'll cancel last minute; I'll back off, she'll re-establish contact; I'll try again to get her in person, etc. This might go on for several weeks! But, what I have found is that as long as she's not outright ignoring you, you WILL get her to meet up with you eventually if you persist--and from there, you should know what to do.

This is true right here, from experience. I have even had chicks I've Fvcked start the cat and mouse game all over again, as if she forgot who I was. I still haven't hooked up with her yet, bc she's still "playing" the original game. I've got other girls to fvck, can't be waiting on Her. So I cut off contact, used to text/email about 2-4 weeks ago, albeit I had wanted to fvck her on the same day spur of the moment to which she'd say, "I'm not home" or "I'm with my girls tonight" (she's bi), almost indignant when I'd message her. The b!tch thought I was going to just come over un-announced I guess. I would never do That. I've already got her replacement(s), a bi girl Just like her, except better as far as being vocal during sex vibrating the walls and sh!t. I could have fvcked her last night if I'd wanted as well as made out (not fvcked) with a married girl (but I know her husband = total jerk to her, but I think she kinda deserves to be talked to that way - she doesn't Work, and just watches TV laughing at comedy shows etc).

I wasn't really trying to get laid this weekend. If I had've, sure, I would've, but with the cold weather and all, and ugly or fat options more prevalent than the hot ones, and having just fvcked the replacement last Sunday for the 1st time (it's too Early to come a knockin on her door again though I know she wouldn't have done it - she contacted me last night which tells me that she was thinking about me as if "It's That time (on a Sunday)" again when we fvcked our brains out the previous Sunday, I wanna do it again" mantra. She'll just have to wait until next weekend, cause I'm a little pis5ed that she informed me earlier in the week that she'd be moving soon after graduation. One of my criteria is that woman has to be There for me, and Many aren't on a consistent basis. She'd been planning to move well before she met me, but still, I'm not going to chase no matter how great the sex is/was.

 

[Jeffst1980]

I found the post I was looking for- it was written by Allen:
http://www.sosuave.com/articles/at/persistence.htm?forum - this has to be one of the best articles written for this site.

To me, the "prize" mentality is more about taking comfort in the knowledge that: A) There are tons of beautiful women in the world and B) If one doesn't like you, it's no big deal. Truly believing this is all that it takes to be able to persist without coming off as needy. Besides- even if you DID come off as needy to a random girl, who cares?? Shake it off and find another.

I find "prize" mentality to be a bit of a misnomer, anyway- it reminds me of the community guys that make girls buy them drinks and tell them about how hot their ex girlfriends were. I prefer "high value male," and even if you ARE one, you're going to have to be the pursuer (and yes, even Brad Pitt would get flaked on once in a while--girls would get nervous!).

I agree that you need to NEXT when disrespect occurs, and Solomon- I would probably NEXT the girl that went to hang out with another dude, too. But, we need to take initial flakiness out of the "disrespect" category because it's NORMAL behavior for a woman that hasn't had enough time to develop high interest in you. We can not compare the behavior of women with that of men, because they are very different.

Calling a woman "low quality" because she canceled a date due to lukewarm interest is like calling a woman low quality because she made out with you but wouldn't have sex with you; it's not an issue of quality, it's just that you didn't get the outcome you wanted! If you want to judge her quality, look to her past and her upbringing, not the fact that she took 3 days to return a text message.

I think the danger of over reliance on the "prize" mentality is that it puts you out of touch with reality and turns everything into a slight: "How DARE she break plans with me to hang out with her friend from college!! Doesn't she KNOW I'm the PRIZE?!?!?!" This is the wrong attitude to take, because it's one of hyper vigilance and insecurity. Remember- your ego is a protective device--to be TRULY confident, you have to put your ego aside and understand that this is just what girls DO when their interest isn't high enough, and if you want to get this girl, you're going to have to RAISE that interest by some means.

Also, I think that TRUE confidence does not come from believing that you are a one of a kind special snowflake; it comes from understanding that NONE of us, men OR women, are really all that special--after all, we're all human animals--and setting out to make a mark on the world in SPITE of this knowledge.

 

[FutureSpartan]

I found the post I was looking for- it was written by Allen:
http://www.sosuave.com/articles/at/persistence.htm?forum - this has to be one of the best articles written for this site.

To me, the "prize" mentality is more about taking comfort in the knowledge that: A) There are tons of beautiful women in the world and B) If one doesn't like you, it's no big deal. Truly believing this is all that it takes to be able to persist without coming off as needy. Besides- even if you DID come off as needy to a random girl, who cares?? Shake it off and find another.

I find "prize" mentality to be a bit of a misnomer, anyway- it reminds me of the community guys that make girls buy them drinks and tell them about how hot their ex girlfriends were. I prefer "high value male," and even if you ARE one, you're going to have to be the pursuer (and yes, even Brad Pitt would get flaked on once in a while--girls would get nervous!).

I agree that you need to NEXT when disrespect occurs, and Solomon- I would probably NEXT the girl that went to hang out with another dude, too. But, we need to take initial flakiness out of the "disrespect" category because it's NORMAL behavior for a woman that hasn't had enough time to develop high interest in you. We can not compare the behavior of women with that of men, because they are very different.

Calling a woman "low quality" because she canceled a date due to lukewarm interest is like calling a woman low quality because she made out with you but wouldn't have sex with you; it's not an issue of quality, it's just that you didn't get the outcome you wanted! If you want to judge her quality, look to her past and her upbringing, not the fact that she took 3 days to return a text message.

I think the danger of over reliance on the "prize" mentality is that it puts you out of touch with reality and turns everything into a slight: "How DARE she break plans with me to hang out with her friend from college!! Doesn't she KNOW I'm the PRIZE?!?!?!" This is the wrong attitude to take, because it's one of hyper vigilance and insecurity. Remember- your ego is a protective device--to be TRULY confident, you have to put your ego aside and understand that this is just what girls DO when their interest isn't high enough, and if you want to get this girl, you're going to have to RAISE that interest by some means.

Also, I think that TRUE confidence does not come from believing that you are a one of a kind special snowflake; it comes from understanding that NONE of us, men OR women, are really all that special--after all, we're all human animals--and setting out to make a mark on the world in SPITE of this knowledge.

Great insight....you articulated my thoughts perfectly.

I'm sure its been mentioned already but outcome dependence can ruin an interaction very quickly. Just go with the flow, be zen, and enjoy and learn from each experience. You don't let the rejections phase you out, but you also don't get all giddy and excited when you do score with a chick you like. Good times and bad times never last forever so always keep your emotions and expectations in check and the ride of life will be much more enjoyable.

 

[omkara]

I think the danger of over reliance on the "prize" mentality is that it puts you out of touch with reality and turns everything into a slight: "How DARE she break plans with me to hang out with her friend from college!! Doesn't she KNOW I'm the PRIZE?!?!?!" This is the wrong attitude to take, because it's one of hyper vigilance and insecurity. Remember- your ego is a protective device--to be TRULY confident, you have to put your ego aside and understand that this is just what girls DO when their interest isn't high enough, and if you want to get this girl, you're going to have to RAISE that interest by some means.

I started to do this after joining this site. It is insecure, just like the way girls get more of an ego boost out of rejecting guys than accepting guys. "Look I'm so high quality that these are the quality of guys that I can throw away." It's cheap and counterproductive.

I once had a girl flake on me on a date (with text message). I texted back, 'ok that's cool.' And then after a week or so texted again, and then we went out. I eventually was denied, but that was more due to the way the date went. + 1 for persistence

Lately I've tried texting girls again who didn't respond to texts (used to next them instantly). One I tried after a week and no reply. Then I tried one after 2 months and we had gone on a date. no reply. -2 for persistence. But I learned from the things I did/said wrong to make them lose interest.

I would only be confident enough to do this when I have other girls that I'm talking to--what Tyler Durden refers to as a "proactive social strategy." In other words you have various social needs, so it's better to always be developing leads before you have need of them, than to wait until you are lonely and desperate and then start seeking out company.

 

[GameOfNoGame]

Ok OP, I have lost my cool several times, what do you make of this?

Those were mistakes, my bad. I went a little nuts for awhile and maybe crossed the line once or twice but I think she kinda likes it. Like causing **** is the only stimulation she can get in her unexamined life. Others have sure done worse to her anyway.

But the thing is, when I back away again after these times, she follows. I'm pretty much good now & don't go out of my way to talk to her anymore but she'll come find me, she misses the persuit but what she doesn't know is I haven't stopped.

Of course I've still been persuing others. She was actually surprised the first time she found out and gets vocally anxious when I talk about this girl or that. Despite it all, we have a lot of fun together & she's a 10 IMO so I can have a side project.

 

[Borknagar]

flakiness is the exact reason why you have more than one option. You should ALWAYS have more than one option, 3 options, and thats minimal. Never just pursue one women at a time! Go for as many as you have time for. You might think "no I don't want to be a player" but who cares? Players are a lot of times a result of womens behaviors, they have no one to blame but themselves and their "sisterhood" that players even exist.

 

[handle]

Excellent point. Making yourself the prize is about knowing that there's better women out there, making sure you aren't needy, living up to your full potential, etc... It is not about making you this dude who just sits there on his 'throne' and doesn't pursue. Pursuing is kind of fun sometimes! Enjoy it!

 

[st_99]

I've been torn about the whole persistent or passive strategy.

Of course you have to show something that peaks her interest but after that, for me, taking the passive route has always yielded more. When I become the pursuer I always feel like I get sh*t on in the end.

My investment in time, energy, thought, etc.. just doesn't pay off.

If I invest very little, I can't go wrong because I always get a big return
on that little investment if it works out.

 

[Falcon25]

I'll give you a perfect example. I took this single mom out three weeks ago, a week after that, she blew me off and flaked on me. I waited another week and called her, she invited me over and blew me on her couch. The girl went from flaking to felatio. So, don't give up. Just keep it on the phone and try again a couple weeks later, sometimes it has nothing to do with you.