Don Juans and Loneliness

[Alexander the Great]

As I read the last couple replies, something struck me suddenly and I thought I'd share.

Let's reframe this whole situation for a moment.


First off: an example. About a year ago, I was out with a "taken" girl. We had met somewhere, there was some sort of a click and we kept hanging out. As friends, because when I met her I made sure I found out if she was available or not. When she turned out to be taken, I kept my distance since I liked what I saw but didn't want to put time in someone unavailable. (Stealing her away wasn't my style yet, still isn't, however slowly becoming. God bless sosuave, I don't even feel bad about it anymore, power to the real Prince! Okay, enough of that, back to the story. )

Long story short: she kept contacting me. We chatted a bit over e-mail and IM, and I learned enough about her to make me re-evaluate her as potential girlfriend material, and so I started to hang out with her on occasion as just friends. Dinner, movie, chatting, stuff like that. Sometimes we had some of her friends along too.

So, purely as friends (as far as I was concerned) we were sitting in a restaurant sometime, sipping our beers, when she suddenly drops this:

"We're not really clicking are we? Why do you go out with me?"

Now, I must say, this girl was honestly a bit of a headcase. She had a diagnosed personality disorder (narcissism) and a somewhat strange demeanor overall that made her ask such direct and blunt questions all the time. And sure, I can perfectly explain this question by referring to her narcissistic tendencies. However, the point is, she was insecure/uncertain about herself as hell. And a lot of women have that problem.

When she asked me this, I was a little dumbstruck, but I remained cool and smiled as I replied:

"We don't click?"

"No," she said. "I don't feel it."

And this was actually after six months of knowing eachother, her e-mailing me almost every other day, calling me frequently and inviting me on her outings.

Since there were no expectations or hopes on my side, and since I couldn't care less about what she thought about me, I just said:

"Well, okay. Sorry you feel that way."

And then I proceeded to sip my beer and returned to a subject we were discussing earlier.

Now, I've had her do this another time too, when we were out with two people she had met and thought it'd be nice to go out together (also because she tried to hook me up with the girl, which was one of the two). Me, having nothing better to do and always up to meet new people (and check out the girl of course), agreed to go. The evening went okay, she was actually with her boyfriend (nice guy). Nothing spectacular chemistry-wise between everyone (nor me and the girl), just okay. Can-be-repeated category.

However, the day after, she would call me and ask:

"Things were a little uneasy, don't you think?"

I replied: "Uneasy? Hehe, don't you think that's a little normal when people first meet? Especially in a group?"

"Well... If you say so. I don't know."

End of example.


Point: this girl was constantly looking for external validation of what she felt. She was constantly checking if her feelings were correct. Now again, this can easily be explained away by dumping it on her narcissim, or her blatant insecurity/uncertainty of herself. But, she was also a woman in every other traditional aspect. Personally, I think she was no different from a typical woman, only with the typical female traits amplified by her issues and her disorder.

Point: maybe we shouldn't indeed be phased at all by such questions or statements that we generally label as sh!t tests. Because they are merely the questions of insecure people seeking to validate their opinion. They don't do it to consciously screw with you, they do it because they can't really decide for themselves what the situation is like, or what they should think or feel about it. They look to you to define it for them.


Here's the reframe for Colossus: in your situation, Colossus, maybe this girl was just trying to ascertain what you felt about her. And you failed that sort-of test by taking it more seriously than she meant it.

I think we should just see such moves not as moves, but as the traits of the insecure seeking out the opinion of others to define what's going on. Because they lack the backbone, if you will, to decide that for themselves. We all know women always look to others for validation of what they think and do.

In Colossus' situation: Like DonS, I don't think a girl truly uninterested would have put it like that to you. She would have just tried to make an end to the date with some excuse. I think her saying this to you, Colossus, was merely an attempt, albeit executed poorly as usual, to figure out what she should consider your being together. Because women are inherently insecure. They don't really realize this when they're doing their sh!t tests of course; to them this state of being is so natural that asking such questions is natural.

(If a man asks such questions all the time, performs such "tests", what would you call him?)

Bottom line: don't fret when they ask such questions. Don't even see it as a sh!t test or a conscious game. Joke about it with her. Make fun of it. Counter with a witty remark. Stay unphased. Because if you phase, you'll look just like someone who takes an innocent joke seriously: a little weird and socially inept. Of course, staying unphased floats majorly on having a confident inner self and not being in any such situation from a perspective of hope and need, no matter how lightly or innocent it may feel.


Just a thought and maybe I'm way off with it. Curious to hear what you think.

(Incidently, yeah, I probably could have laid her, there were many hints and I all got them, no worries. I was just not interested in her that way, because of her personality. A little disgusted even, so not even "just sex". She on the other hand couldn't figure me out for the life of it and it drove her crazy. She admitted as much by her words and actions, even directly said it to me once. There. That settles that, in case you were wondering. )

 

[ketostix]

A chick who has any kind of interest in you will not say that to your face on the second date, because she knows that no matter how much of a "man" you are, it could easily backfire on her.

It's not worth pursuing a woman who has the kind of balls to say something like this as a sh!t test, cause there will likely be many more to follow.

How many hoops are you willing to jump through for one piece of ass? Me? Not many.....

I agree there are sh!t test and then there's signs she's just not interested. You'd have to already be in a pretty big hole to get a disinterested sign, one probably one not worth climbing out of. Besides, sh!t tests on a date are not a good sign to begin with let alone full on signs of disinterest.

 

[penkitten]

you know, i have to be honest here colossus, we all have our lonely moments and we want to be wanted, because we are human... so i think you just had one of those moments when you wrote this thread.
if she told she didn't think that the two of you were clicking, as disappointing as it is at the moment, we both know that it is always better to be told up front before you invested yourself into a relationship with her.

 

[jophil28]

The standard wisdom says that we should ignore bad behavior/sh!t tests in women (and children ) and rewarded desireable behavior...
However when a woman TELLS you that she is not "feeling it"... or you are "not the guy for me " or some such, then just ignoring it and hope that the pvssy is still available is disrespectful to YOURSELF. IT is the wrong action on your part.

Women pull regular "tests" on men in whom they have some IL. THis is not a test ..Her telling you OVERTLY that she and you do not "click" is a humiliation and and insult (to your ego at least ) .
Remember that women habitually send their comms covertly ,so an OVERT message like this is a HUGE dealbreaker because she really MEANS IT..she is not trying to manipulate like she would with any other test, she is trying to push you way and hold you at a distance.

AS STR*uP said, if she liked you deep down she would not take the risk of saying that statement.

Ignoring it, like you would do with a regular shyte test, is NOT going to swing her around.

THis mission has failed - EJECT or return to base.

 

[Colossus]

Alexander and DonS:

I read both of your replies, and these are interesting perspectives.

However, Like many things, you have to take it on a case-by-case basis. I have to concur with Str8up and Jophil. I don't think a girl who is truly interested would make a statement like this.

My confidence was not strong going into the date, which was problem number one. I dont know why; I think I just thought too much about it and I wasnt natural. I was serious, kinda quiet, and hesitant. Death trio.

I think what happened was she was attracted to me but wasn't really sure about how she felt about me as a potential match. Once she had basically made up her mind, it was Game Over. There was nothing I could do to salvage it after that point.

Which is why I agree that I should have aborted mission right then and there. Sometimes you have those moments where you know in your gut what you should do, but you decide to go against it anyway. This was one of them.

On the plus side Ive learned a lot from this situation and this thread. My inner game needs improvement.

 

[STR8UP]

Which is why I agree that I should have aborted mission right then and there. Sometimes you have those moments where you know in your gut what you should do, but you decide to go against it anyway. This was one of them.

I'm wondering what would have happened if when she said that, you immediately agreed, and said "That's such a relief! I feel the same way. Maybe we should just call it a night right now. I have a lot of stuff to do tomorrow. Friends? Ok, lets shake on it."

I'll bet she would be backpedaling at about 85mph. Wouldn't do you much good as far as changing her mind, but it would be funny to see the look on her face when you blindsided her by throwing it right back at her.

 

[jophil28]

A chick who has any kind of interest in you will not say that to your face on the second date, because she knows that no matter how much of a "man" you are, it could easily backfire on her.

It's not worth pursuing a woman who has the kind of balls to say something like this as a sh!t test, cause there will likely be many more to follow.

How many hoops are you willing to jump through for one piece of ass? Me? Not many.....

THAT is exactly right.

A woman who really is interested, has her head on right, has RESPECT for a man and VALUES you (or your potentail as an LTR ) will NEVER pull this shtye as a "test " on a second date. I do not care how hot she is, or how hot she THINKS she is.

Women say that you and she do nor "click" because they are getting ready to bail. Her IL is LOW.

DonS is reading her motivations all wrong. And all the phony DJ Alpha posturing will never work when she has decided that you are headed for the FriendZone. It is over.

IN over 30 years of dating, I have only heard one woman tell me that "you are not the man for me." And she meant it.---ONCE in thirty years. This statement was not a TEST by her it was a bland fact and she the FZed me.( however she and I stiil contuinued to have occasional sex while I hung on by my fingernails. I never want that kind of sex again- I traded my self respect for pvssy )

I have seriously dated a hundred women or more and NEVER heard this stuff before or since.

Can you imagine a HB 9 saying that on a second date with George Clooney to test his "alphaness" ?

Gimme a break.

 

[Knight's Cross]

DonS,
You pose some interesting ideas. I agree that the devil is in the details, but her actions show her hand. First she starts with the S$@t test then she follows up with the full court interview. Once a woman goes to a test/ frame shift like that I'm of the opinion that the gig is up, he was already blown out of the water. NO answer, even a C&F was going to do anything but slowdown the demise of the OP's Interest Level to her. As far as her sucking his tongue and trading saliva....well she thought he was more a "he'll do for the moment" but not a "I want to have his children". She was simply having fun. Many of us have seen this.
On her trying to validate her feelings of self doubt, I see what you are saying, but OVERTLY saying that was not necessary. They only resort to OVERT communication when COVERT doesn't get across. Not to cut on the OP, but she probably had nothing else going on, and decided that a second date would be better than sitting at home with her cat. Her OVERT comment that they didn't seem to click was her trying to soften the LJBF move she was making with the OP.
She then follows up with the fatal blow the next day, thru a text message. Once again demonstrating women love to TM. It allows them to be indirect. Another lesson to SS Members that texting is to be avoided.

Nah, Jophil is right on this one. Women that have been head over heels for me have NEVER made comments like this one. Looks to me like the OP rushed for the endzone.

The comments written about women being overly excited to get together, date, make plans early is interesting. I've seen it in a few women. It most certainly is a trap that the AFC can fall headfirst into. Not a problem if you spot it, just keep on keeping on and tell her that you can get together a week out, but that you aren't available such short notice. I've kept a couple plates waiting 10-12 days. IF you demonstrated high value at the start, she will be anxiously waiting for you. Most of the women that have tried this trap on me were high on drama.

KC

 

[Colossus]

Look, I was there.

Initially, this girl did like me. I dont think she ever disliked me. If I came into the second date with the right frame this may have gone on another date or two. But, honestly, I dont think it would have lasted beyond that. There were some patent incongruities between us the more we talked. Every other response I had or opinion I gave made her wrinkle her nose a bit and raise her eyebrows; the kind of look someone gives you when they cant hide their disagreement. She made out with me because, as I said; we are both attractive, there was alcohol involved, and it was convenient. Girls do this all the time. Remember college?

She was never really a b!tch, but her comments were clearly indicative that she did not respect my views or consider me as a potential LTR. My roommate, who was there the first night (there was a small group) made the observation that she was looking for a different type of guy. Like I said, if my game were strong, and I had done some of the things DonS suggested, this may have gone on for another date or two. But the weakness of my frame caused her to decisively end any relationship/sex potential right then. This is unusual, I will agree. I don't think Ive had any women overtly throw this at me in the first couple of dates.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Collossus,
Look don't get so upset,and don't fall for the Bullshvt that there was a magic bullet you could have fired that would have pulled her,you just weren't her bag of fruit,end of story....when you meet someone who is attracted to you if you have followed this site for a while,you will recognise it and more importantly act,remember you only have seconds in which to do so, just as one rehearses a dance step then have a one size fits all reaction.

 

[jophil28]

Women will test a man's frame whenever she has questions about how strong it is; so of course a women wouldn't say what was said to a Hollywood Super Star or anyone else who has demonstrated a rock solid frame and high-value. But if a man displays insecurity, you bet she is going to start digging at that scab.

Dude, i can tell you about my experiences only and here goes --
Women go out on dates because they initially like SOMETHING about the guy.
They want the date to succeed,they want to enjoy his company, they are on their BEST behavior and above all they WANT TO BE LIKED by HIM. That is the overwhelming vibe in almost all of my dates.
I am not sure about your experiences - perhaps you do not have the same fortunate experiences that I usually have.

You tried to make a point about hotties having their choice of "tens of thousands " of men. I dispute that . That is pure PUA mythology. Really attractive women frequently complain that they are lonely because most men lack the confidence to ask them out. Sure, a lot of men ogle and stare at these HB9s but the widespread belief that these women are swamped with men is a foolish myth. These women are there for the taking in many cases, BUT using mindgames like not returning her calls to create " desire" shows how little you really know....your advice to NOT return a text from women is unlikely to be endearing to a high value woman. She will more likely think that you are a d*ckhead who ran out of phone credit and cant afford to buy $29 worth of phone minutes.
Just making women wait does NOT create desire all by itself. Women will wait for a man in whom they see VALUE but relying on tricks like not returning her calls is as unsophisticated and primitive as the juvenile advice offered to women in "The Rules" or Cosmo.
A lot of what YOU and other rookies have read in the Seduction Community lit., has become your concreted beliefs without you fully testing the advice in the field.
Well I can tell you this - if you are on a second date and the woman is telling you that you and she "do not click" , then what you just heard is the squeaking of the exit door opening. THat statement from her is NOT some infamous girly "test" of your inner strength or masculinity (you might WANT to believe that, and you probably also want to BELIEVE that you have those smooth counter moves courtesy of that $59.95 that you send to Doc Lust to download that secret report, "Bang all the Hotties")..

Women do not GO on a second date unless they enjoyed the first date. GOing on a second date is a woman's way of saying " I liked being with you and I would like to do it again. Lets see where this goes."
At this point she is even more likely to be well behaved because she sees you as having VALUE now. ..again this is another opportunity to impress him. Another opportunity to be LIKED by HIM..

As STR8 said, a women who is on a second date will NEVER risk saying something like "we do not click.." if she wants to go to a third date or further.

In this case she grilled Collosus further to tease out some "differences" between them so that she can FEEL more "justified" in cutting him loose. THis is how women rationalize not seeing a guy any more ,by exploring and listing their 'incompatibilities'.

If the second date turns into a hot grilling or a Q and A interrogation AFTER she says something negative or creates a faked up provocation then the attraction switch has been flicked to 'OFF'. Why ? WHat happened ? Only the two people present can know the reasons, BUT essentially it is a bust from then on, and pulling out some lame PUA "moves" will NOT turn it around permanently . You may squeeze one more date of her BUT she will be the " baitch date from hell" ...she will find fault with EVERYTHING that you do or say and her whining crap will drive you nuts, AND you may go home with blue balls and shredded self respect and you may be out some more $$$.


I learned to swim for the shore when the boat starts taking water and not wait for the waves to come over the side. I never wait around to drown.

 

[azanon]

I've had the "click" thing tossed at me, and it was a test to see if I would start pandering to her.

HB: "I don't think we 'click'."
V: "You're right. I kinda 'pop' and 'crackle', you just sit there making a 'whining' noise. There isn't really any 'clicking'."

She started to laugh at the overt C/F, then stopped short and got very quiet when the covert message landed.

Oops, baby, didn't think it would flip on you, did ya?

That's how I've been handling those sort of "We aren't working out, are we?" sort of tests or power plays.

"No, we aren't working out, I work out. I haven't seen you exercise at all."

Use their bullsh¡t to put them in the dog house. You'll see those sort of lines drop off in frequency.

Jophil's answer is fine. But, it's counter-productive, really. If you are a little proactive, you'll save a lot of time dating. If you were to launch every chick that pulled this whining, you'd launch EVERY chick. They all play that game, so, answer with something deflective or redirecting - women do it all the time. Drop a ninja smoke and put it back on them.

This is the right one to follow, Colossus.

Yeah, I'd feel good to just launch every woman the moment she throws a **** test of this magnitude, but if you kinda want them around, it's probably a little extreme.

If I were in the dating scene again, I'd take the approach - if a woman's gonna be in my presence, I'm going to be the one calling the shots and setting the frame. By all means, come back on her hard such as Vulpine's suggested response, but don't overreact. React enough to make it clear that either its done your way, or no way at all.

If you get repeated disrespect, then sure.... take the b**** home.

 

[Metro3pilot]

Colossus my brother,

It matters not whether she likes/did not like/never liked/sorta liked/almost liked.....

if you continue trying to figure it out, your ego will not let you walk away, your next stop is drunk texting and convincing yourself you can get her

time to march on

:rockon:

 

[Interceptor]

What happened is that this woman was initially attracted to Colossus's confidence , sens of self, and personality....but then he 'changed'. This raised a red flag for the woman, and she started picking away at his armor.

This is extremely extremely common.


For whatever reason he became incongruent. She sensed it, and she started picking apart his 'frame' to see who he really was after all.
Somewhere along the line he dropped the ball, and she noticed glaringly.
This woman is probably used to fakes and phonies, so she tried to give our buddy a 'chance', but he appeared not able to maintain his strong sense of self, and his boundaries slipped a little.


There are a few main reason that affect our mindset as Men, that reduce our masculine effectiveness, especialy when it comes to women:


We feel we are undeserving


We feel unworthy


We feel inadequate in some way


We are intimidated by a woman's physical beauty


We cannot handle the 'competition'


Shame for wanting what WE want , as Men


We feel UN masculine around her

These are common irrational beliefs, mindsets if you will, which severly undermine our abiltity to go out and get what we want.

If we experience these symptoms, the first step is to remove them from our mind and body completely.
They are irrational beliefs we have stored and believe are REAL and VALID.
And they are not, plain and simple.


A stong sense of self, a sense of purpose, high self esteem, and self respect are your 'armor' and help you assert your boundaries to not let you succumb to any female's mind games or manipulation.

Look, WE do not BEG or GROVEL for pvssy. OK?!


We do not sacrifice our self respect and dignity and dishonor ourselves for a random woman who is physically attractive to us, and perhaps exhibits a few quaint traits that we like.
This is why it is extremely important to not go out looking for a relationship or GF.
And we dont blame a woman for not finding us 'attractive'. She has a right to want what SHE WANTS TOO, ok?
We have no right to shame a woman for wanting what she wants.
We have to be proud and respect ourselves enough to ACCEPT that fate.

This is ALL related to how we view our lives. And how we navigate through the challenges.....