Domestic Violence

[Desdinova]

But someone with the conditions...you will only aggravate the situation. I think that's what Des is trying to say here.

Exactly. No matter how patient you are, no matter how nice you are, there's nothing you can do to bring them down from their insanity. I'm honestly surprised I put up with it all and never killed the b1tch. The "eggshell" comment is so spot-on. It's like I have to screen every word I said for something that could set her off. Still, no matter how much I screened my words before I said them, something else would set her off.

Here's a typical conversation:

Her: Hey sweetie, what should we eat for supper?
Me: How about I make some spaghetti?
Her: WHAT WAS THAT DIRTY LOOK FOR?
Me: (calmly) What dirty look?
Her: The one you just gave me!
Me: (calmly) I'm sorry, but I honestly wasn't trying to give you a dirty look
Her: FINE! NEVERMIND THEN. (sits down and frowns)

 

[Vulpine]

My post came up after yours, Wyldfire. If had seen your post beforehand, I would have added more about handling crazies, hence the addition of the disclaimer.

But, following in the "fight or flight" logic... If it becomes obvious that the scene can't be cooled, that's when one would take their leave.

If anyone has read "How to win friends and influence people", there is one "rule" that says: Never confront someone when you are angry.

Too much emotion prevents productive interaction. By leaving, not only do you avoid fanning the flames, but you create an opportunity for the emotion to dissapate and logic to take hold again. Upon your return, you can resume the confrontation in a more civil tone. Until it escalates, at which point you leave again... lather, rinse, repeat.

To me it seems like common sense, but obviously some people are just sheep waiting to be sheared. I mean, do you stand there staring at a bee's hive swarming with angry bees? Sure, there's honey in there, but how many bees are there to sting you? People who get abused, in my mind anyway, see the bees and go for the honey anyway. And this is my point. If someone is too lazy to find another "bee's nest" (one with the potential to have "fewer bees"), doesn't have a healthy self respect (like's to be stung/****), or doesn't have the self esteem/confidence to believe they can actually find a better bee hive or can do without the honey, then those people are walking pin-cushions for bee's stingers.

I know this seems like I'm anti-victim. It should, I AM. I am anti-violence/abuse... but it takes two to tango. There is no abuse if there is no victim. It's like driving a car: The best way to avoid a traffic accident is to not be around when it happens (abstinence/aversion). The best way is not "drive a safer car" (survival). That would mean you plan on getting in an accident, right?

So, in these abusive situations, someone had to stick around and become a victim. Someone knew the accident was coming and must've thought they were "driving a safer car", or thought they had the capacity to fix the problem, or, were oblivious to the impending danger.

Now don't flame me - I'm not suggesting that abusers are right or just. I'm pointing out that a portion of the blame should be on the victim.

 

[Vulpine]

Maybe to clarify I should add that, if you are sticking around trying figure out which personality disorder they have, you are a victim waiting to happen.

You've recognized that 1. You're unhappy 2. They are making you unhappy 3. There is something wrong with them that should be fixed.

You are no person's psychiatrist or therapist in a romantic relationship, nor should you be. You should be saying: "You should get counselling for whatever your problem is, get well soon." on the way out the door.

 

[Desdinova]

Now don't flame me - I'm not suggesting that abusers are right or just. I'm pointing out that a portion of the blame should be on the victim.

It's a bit difficult to put blame on the victim if they've never encountered this before. Their first exposure to the abuse could actually be concieved as "normal" and they'll tolerate it. That's how it was in my situation. I honestly thought that it was normal, since my mother was hot-tempered.

It's the people who are knowledgeable about the situation, but continue to expose themselves to it that I don't feel any pity for.

A good example is my female friend who went back to a physically abusive man after everyone informed her that he'd do it again. I'm happy to say that she finally left him for good, and I'm proud of her.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

DES: Been there, done that. The psychotic I wasted 4.5 years of my 20's with was the type that would start fights in public. I could literally be in a restaurant have some girl walk by or I could even glance at a woman in a bikini in a picture on a wall and the night was over. She'd launch into these insane fits of jealousy. I never laid a hand on her, but there were times I'd have fingernail marks on my arms or she'd grab at my nuts. It wasn't the phyisical that she'd do damage to, it was a constant berating and browbeating that brought me to my lowest point. Women are much more efficient in emotional damage when it comes to abuse - it's their realm.

I didn't post the article to say that this was some new epidemic, rather to bring it to light. Most abuse caused by women goes entirely unreported due to the "take-it-on-the-chin" masculine dynamic. Me even posting about this runs the risk of being perceived as some whiny, wuss. Women are far better at emotional abuse and when it does come to violence, men are statistically accounted for most of the fatalities as women are far more likely to use a weapon (such as knives and guns) with the intent to kill. While men are more prone to use their fists and physicality, women tend to throw things.

 

[Vulpine]

That's a good point Desdinova. In fact, I wouldn't have arrived at my opinion if it wasn't for the abuse exposure I've had. It's like "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

So, I'll agree with you. My lack of pity is for the people who complain that their significant other is abusive in many different ways, many times, or "every night I'm scared to come home from work". Duh, then why go home at all? Why is this abuse at this level? Shame on them.

However, the stories are so frequent, I can see how people can believe that it's normal. Like in another post, a man said: "Oh well, that's married life."

 

[Wyldfire]

Vulpine...I'm guessing you must not have seen me talk about my views on DV before...including my own situation. I don't refer to myself as a "victim" because I'm not. I'm a "survivor". I call myself that because instead of just blaming my ex husband for being an abusive nut case (which he is)...I take full responsibility for the part I played in my own misery. The first time he abused me, it was all on him. Every time after that, I was equally responsible and I allowed it to happen. I owe Al-Anon a great deal...and I'm actually quite thankful my ex was an Alcoholic as well as an abusive man with BPD. That program allowed me to look at my own problems and that let me figure out just why on earth I stayed as long as I did (10 years).

You hear all the typical excuses...I stayed for the kids...I was afraid...I thought he would stop...blah, blah, blah. All excuses...and the same applies to men who put up with it. People stay because it fulfills a sick need they have. I was kinda unique in that I was never meek and I've always had a very high self esteem. However, I also wasn't abused as a child or molested or any of those things. The sick need I had was not to punish myself for feeling dirty or bad or to try to recreate my childhood and get a different result. For me, I grew up in a bit of a stoic environment where no one showed feelings or emotion...at all. Not negative, not positive. No one said "I love you" or gave hugs or affection. No one screamed or hit anyone or called names. I grew up not being comfortable with feeling emotions or expressing them. Along comes this guy when I was all of 18 years old, thinking I had the world by the balls and had all the answers. Of course, I was a complete idiot, but we all go through that. There was a great deal of passion and by God out came all those feelings and emotions quite easily. It was mostly volatile, mind you...but I guess I still needed it just the same. So there you have it...the abuse fulfilled a need I had. When I figured out what that need was and realized that I no longer had that need...I packed up my 3 kids, took what we could carry and $50 and left everything behind...including my home, car, personal belongings and especially the 190 lbs of dead weight that was helping me to teach my children the wrong things in life. I never looked back even for a second...wasn't even tempted. Never been with another abusive man since and never will be.

I wasn't at all offended by your comments. I agree with them, actually...and probably even more strongly than you do. That's why you'll often see me pushing the guys on here to take responsibility for their failures, mistakes, problems, misfortunes and misery...because whenever you allow yourself to be treated poorly in life, you too ARE accountable. Since you can never do a damn thing to change the person who treated you bad, all you can do is take a fearless look at yourself and figure out what the hell you were thinking to stay with or want them in the first place. That's how you go from being a "victim" to being a "survivor"...instead of blaming others, look to yourself first and fix yourself, thereby unpacking all that nasty and unpleasant emotional baggage as you go.

 

[MacAvoy]

On the subject of domestic violence, my only thoughts are ....

What do you say to a women with two black eyes?

Nothing, she's already been told twice.

 

[Marlimus]

Lady and Gentlemen, I think its about time we started thinking about screening methods for unstable or abusive women. The current laws and prevailing attitudes favor women in the extreme; women are almost universally given custody, and in any domestic dispute once, the woman plays the role of victim the man is automatically deominzed.

Our best defense is to be able to recognize women who ARE TO BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS. Until the system changes, as men this is our best bet.

 

[Vulpine]

Oooop oop ooop! You just had to mention baggage.

Ok, both my parents were alcoholics. My mother divorced my father and got into rehab - AlAnon in fact. However, this is where my take on abuse breaks from the norm.

My mother never shed her "baggage" and stayed in victim mode. When I say someone has baggage, I mean that they've been vicitmized and became proactive versus reactive in relationships. When I say proactive, I mean someone is actively looking for warning signs and scrutinizing minute details out of fear of a reoccurance. When I say reactive, I mean not expecting warning to signs appear (and assuming that not everybody is fvcked up) but reacting when they do.

Now, my mother tried to "counsel" me and impose her victim views on me, and I bought it. I analyzed every little thing and tried to fix problems versus avoid them. Consequently, I was the victim. The "cutter" (who was probably actually BPD now that I've read more about it) I had a relationship with really helped me to shed my mother/father/victim baggage and change my ways. I stayed for the trama, I stayed to be a victim. Until her counsellor urged her to dump me and she explained why. I got dumped by her counsellor! I thought hard about it, and realized I was the victim and that the counsellor was actually sparing me the hardship. THANKS! Then I reflected on all the abusive "step dads" my mother dragged around. She bought "oh woe is me" books and rode the pity pot forever. She kept the abusers around and shunned the good guys. (see also nice guy vs. jerk)

My mother stayed the victim and tried to use her knowledge to fix rather than avoid. Once you empower yourself to leave bad situations when you realize aren't happy, you cease to be a victim, and thus, shed your baggage at the same time.

So, Wyldfire, thanks for being hard on people who about their mistakes. Sometimes noone wants to believe that they are to blame and want to phone the cops (Oh help me, help me! I'm a victim!) versus phone a cab (I'm in control of my own life and well being).

Ultimately, Wyldfire, if you look to find mistakes in someone, you WILL find them. You'll keep a tally of all the bad things and try to put a finger on what the problem is. All the tallying keeps you around way longer than you should've been, and your baggage has effectively manifested itself into a new victimization, and even MORE baggage. Whereas, if you left when things started to make you unhappy, you'd be in a much better place. That's my take on baggage, leave it behind before you get more of it.

 

[Desdinova]

Lady and Gentlemen, I think its about time we started thinking about screening methods for unstable or abusive women.

When one learns to stand up for themself and quits tolerating bad behavior from people, this "screening process" is already implemented. The person knows to avoid the toxic person at the first sign of problems.

The problem comes when trying to educate the uneducated. When you ask the abused man if he'd like to learn how to stand up for himself, he'll only answer with "Hold on, let me ask my wife."

 

[Vulpine]

AH-HA!!!!!

Couldn't have put it any better, Des.

Wyldfire,
I have seen your posts on BPD and baggage before. And, it was irritating to me because it came off as you having baggage and spreading doom and gloom trying to make everyone else victims. Now that you've explained your positioning, I can see that you are merely trying to offer advice, but it's not coming off as reactive. That "I'm a survivor" stance is crap that AA feeds you and you're gobbling it up. AA actually promotes victim mentality: here's the how's and why's of alcoholism... now let's go out there and find them.... not AVOID them. Really think about that. Not everyone is an alcoholic. Not everyone is abusive. But EVERYONE displays a characteristic of both at some time or another. If you dwell on the "them, their problems" too long, you miss the "me, my happiness" which is the healthier frame of mind.

Edit: At the time, I went to Al-Ateen and my mother "helped" me with info from Al-Anon. All I can give AA credit for is for the coping with the pain. AA pushes proactive fault finding, not reactive happiness behavior which is more important. AA teaches how to be a victim and survive, not pay attention to your own happiness and avoid becoming a victim. It seems ever-so-simple broken down to that.

 

[Wyldfire]

Vulpine...it's actually probably a bit miraculous that I don't look for warning signs in everyone. I can spot them a mile away, mind you...but don't go out of my way to find them.

Yeah, it sounds like your mother got stuck in victim mode. A lot of women (and men) do that. You'd think the Domestic Violence services would get their heads out of their kiesters and figure out that until those who got mixed up in these DV situations can hold themselves accountable and take some responsibility for their own suffering they'll forever be the perpetual victims. This is what I meant by DV agencies often doing more harm than good. They just teach people they are supposed to "help" to stay victims forever.

 

[Wyldfire]

AH-HA!!!!!

Couldn't have put it any better, Des.

Wyldfire,
I have seen your posts on BPD and baggage before. And, it was irritating to me because it came off as you having baggage and spreading doom and gloom trying to make everyone else victims. Now that you've explained your positioning, I can see that you are merely trying to offer advice, but it's not coming off as reactive. That "I'm a survivor" stance is crap that AA feeds you and you're gobbling it up. AA actually promotes victim mentality: here's the how's and why's of alcoholism... now let's go out there and find them.... not AVOID them. Really think about that. Not everyone is an alcoholic. Not everyone is abusive. But EVERYONE displays a characteristic of both at some time or another. If you dwell on the "them, their problems" too long, you miss the "me, my happiness" which is the healthier frame of mind.

Edit: At the time, I went to Al-Ateen and my mother "helped" me with info from Al-Anon. All I can give AA credit for is for the coping with the pain. AA pushes proactive fault finding, not reactive happiness behavior which is more important. AA teaches how to be a victim and survive, not pay attention to your own happiness and avoid becoming a victim. It seems ever-so-simple broken down to that.

Vulp...here's the thing with 12 step programs... (my favorite slogan) You have to take what you like and leave the rest. I'm actually pretty good at that. I use the term survivor only when talking about my experiences with DV. I flat out refuse to call myself a "victim"...because I sure don't feel like one. I haven't been to Al-Anon for years. I didn't even get really deep into it. I love the serenity prayer and a bunch of the slogans. I like some of the books. I owe Al-Anon so much not because it fixed all my flaws and problems, but because it helped me see that in order for me to end up where I was...there had to be a problem with myself. It allowed me to dig into myself and sort out my own stuff. I'm not out running around preaching about being a survivor or whatever. I just tell people to take responsibility and hold themselves accountable...because if you do that you don't typically get stuck in the "victimstance".

 

[OrioleMagic]

A man goes to jail or prison for hitting a woman. A woman who is abusive gets "counselling" what a joke.

Excerpt from above article.
Hilker was sentenced to 16 weeks of counseling at the Domestic Abuse Shelter Homes in Englewood, Florida.

If a woman you are involved with is being abusive towards you, you are almost in a no win situation. If you hit back or even try to protect yourself, you are going to jail, if you just sit there and let her hit you, she is making you a punk. And if you run from her, you are a sissy (although that might be the best plan). I am sort of a natural smartass and a-hole, so hopefully that will expose a woman with that kind of personality disorder. There's no amount of beauty that would make a relationship feasible for me with one of these women with personality disorders.

 

[SAYNO]

A Change Is Coming!

It looks like things are finally begining to change. :rockon:


"LAST MONTH, in a little-noticed end-of-the-year action, Congress reauthorized the Violence Against Women Act.
The final version includes text that, for the first time, recognizes male victims of domestic violence and sexual assault"

See:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ed...s/2006/01/09/family_violence_strikes_men_too/




SN'

 

[Wyldfire]

It looks like things are finally begining to change. :rockon:


"LAST MONTH, in a little-noticed end-of-the-year action, Congress reauthorized the Violence Against Women Act.
The final version includes text that, for the first time, recognizes male victims of domestic violence and sexual assault"

See:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ed...s/2006/01/09/family_violence_strikes_men_too/




SN'

It's starting to change because more men are reporting those kinds of crimes committed against them. The court system has been changing for a long time, but you just don't hear about it. Even though my ex husband physically assaulted our 15 year old son the judge still wanted to try to make our son see his father. My son told his lawyer that he didn't care what anyone said, judge or otherwise, he wasn't going to see or speak to his father again and if anyone tried to force him they would have to arrest him. Luckily his lawyer was able to convey to the judge that it wasn't me, but my son who was refusing any contact. Even though my ex was an arsewipe, I never kept the kids from him. Lots of times I even tried to smooth things over with the kids when he did something to really upset them. The judge automatically assumed that I was doing something wrong.

It's good to be fair and impartial and look at all the facts, but it'll mean bad news if the judges go from assuming men are to blame for everything to assuming that women are before they even know the facts. If that happens it will just cause a backlash and will swing back in the other direction again, only just harder than before. People need to stop passing judgement on others based on their gender then things will be fair for everyone.

 

[Last Man Standing]

Haha. funny article - these dudes either have mental problems or didn't want to go to prison by restraining their psychotic wives -- Hmmmm. this never happens to black dudes -- I wonder why??

 

[Wyldfire]

Haha. funny article - these dudes either have mental problems or didn't want to go to prison by restraining their psychotic wives -- Hmmmm. this never happens to black dudes -- I wonder why??

It does happen to black men too. Ever watched that show COPS? One of the first episodes I ever saw showed this poor black dude duct taped to an old ripped up vinyl recliner in the front yard of a run down house...ya know, furniture in the yard...that look and feel. His wife got pissed at him over something, smacked him around a bit and duct taped his arse to that chair in the front yard and proceeded to screech in his face for all the neighbors and people walking past to see. The police came and were kinda stuck between laughing at and feeling sorry for the guy. Admittedly, that was my reaction as well. It was funny to see, but I also sympathized with the poor guy for how embarassed he must feel in that position. The police removed the tape and let him up and told his wife she couldn't do that again and she went all ghetto with her head going back and forth and her finger in the faces of the cops. If she were a man she would have been arrested in a heartbeat.

So yes...it does happen to black men, too.

 

[penkitten]

you should not stay in these situations.
no one should have to live in fear or be belittled or insulted on a constant basis.
having something thrown at you is the same as someone trying to hit you ( they were aiming at you with an object and missed!)

if parents are seperating / divorcing , the children should live with the one that is the most sane and can function independantly . if one is always cussing and throwing stuff around, they shouldnt have to listen or watch that stuff.

if a person has a bi polar problem, and they will not stay on their meds or seek help from their drs when they need it, its a sign that they arent ready to change or deal with a change.