Does a challenge create attraction? I don't think so

[SexPDX]

Being a challenge for a woman is widely thought of as a Don Juan priciple. While being a challenge does have it's role in seduction I disagree with those who assert that it CAUSES a woman to be attracted to you.

She simply won't be attracted to you because you would be a challenge for her to get. She becomes attracted to you because you show her VALUE. Challenge without value percieved on her part will do nothing. Think about someone your know who you are not attracted to and they are not attracted to you, but each of you would be a challenge for the other to seduce. How likely do you suppose it is that the two of you will start attracting each other because each other would be a challenge? Not gonna happen, right? Right.

Now that I have destroyed challenge as the possible cause of an initial attraction, what is left to discuss is how it affects an EXISTING attraction. And it turns out it DOES affect it very well IF you have showcased some VALUE to her that CAUSED the attraction which the challenge aspect of the seduction would be MEANINGLESS without.

So...why is "being a challenge" discussed here so much while "demonstrating value" is RARELY mentioned outside of a very limted set of ideas? Could it be because the guys here are used to the WOMAN being the challenge and not THEM and they now get a charge out of the idea that THEY can be the challenge? If I am right then that is perfectly normal but lets not lose sight of the big picture.

That being said, here are the only methods of showing value I see discussed here FREQUENTLY:

1) Alphaness, Being the Man (Pook stuff)
2) ****y and Funny (David Deangelo stuff)
3) Not getting personal validation from women

All good stuff, guys, but there is A LOT more to it than that. I will suspend my own comments until I see what others say.

Nick

------------------
- The seductionist formerly known as trickynick

You either own the game or it owns you.

~"Pon atencion al latido de tu corazon...y el ritmo de tu respiracion...como te permites llegar a ser completamente llevada...por la conexion que esta tomando lugar." ~

 

[Fae]

Good point. I think there was a recent post on mASF regarding chicks flaking and someone posted that if the original poster had demonstrated more value before getting the number/asking for the date, that he wouldn't be getting flaked on.

Personally, I really need to work on demonstrating value quickly. Even though I think I do better with more time, more solid information on various methods to demonstrate value over both the short- and long-term would be very useful to me--moreso the short-term but both would be useful.

 

[PlayerinTraining]

Nick,

I'm inclined to agree with you. Part of my problem with woman was demonstrating TOO much challenge, and not enough value.
I simply thought a woman would find me valuable automatically.

After reading some SS/salesmanship materials, I'm figuring out how to solve this problem.

Most women have some self-esteem/rejection issues. The last thing they want is to get attached to a man who they fear will end up hurting them. A guy who is too much of a challenge will do that, and they will shut down to protect themselves.

If you could sum up the teachniques of SS, it basically teaches a man how to 1) find out what an individual woman finds arousing (valuable) 2) how to use language and behavior so she begins to see YOU as that man.

The key is to be a challenge, but still give them hope that they can "catch" you, if they play their cards right.

Isn't that EXACTLY what women do to us?

[This message has been edited by PlayerinTraining (edited 07-16-2002).]

 

[BGMan]

SexPDX:

Exactly! She won't miss you if you don't give her a REASON to miss you.

Show your value, i.e., what a great and cool guy you are, THEN withdraw and let her wonder about you!

As to how you show your value, David DeAngelo's Cool Funny technique is one of the best ways to keep them thinking about you for a while!

BGMan

 

[BigBallz]

Challenge is very important in the role of seduction, but it is true that it is meaningless unless you can provide value. Just like value will lose meaning if it can be aquired easilly.

Value = bait
challenge = hook

The DJ formerly known as Player69
BigBallz

 

[JustDoItAlways]

So is your real question what do women value in a man?

They want a good-looking, rich, famous, smart, athletic, 6' 4'' linebacker type, who owns his own business, is funnier than Seinfeld, who is THE Alpha-male, likes kids, who is ambitious, is romantic, drives a nice car, owns a mansion, dresses well, charms everyone, has women hanging all over him, pays his bills, goes to the gym, has an investment broker, can fix anything, doesn't complain when things don't go his way, can sweet-talk her out of her panties any time, makes her feel good, isn't moody in terms of having highs and lows, has a black-belt in karate, smiles a lot, climbs mountains, skydives and screws like a porn star. More importantly, they want a Man who doesn't seem all that interested in them but still shows them a good time while continuing to be thier man. That's a long list, its called by women, the "complete package". But then, every chick isn't a 10 either.

You shouldn't have to explicitly demonstrate it. If you did, she'd just say you are bragging.



[This message has been edited by JustDoItAlways (edited 07-16-2002).]

 

[Shiftkey]

A concept that many newbies misunderstand.

Good post.

That's why I cringe when I see guys say they got a girl's number after only 20 seconds of convo and act proud about it. They basically introduce themselves, say one stupid witty comment, then ask for her number. She'll usually give it, but it rarely turns into a date because the guy hasn't established ANY rapport! No value. He's basically relying only on his looks to get him a date and unless you're her perfect physical type, that's not enough.

 

[MysteryWoman]

Not all women like a challenge, a lot don't go for Alpha men either. Although this site is good, alot of the issues discussed are a bit to black and white.

Some women fall in love with self destructive men, ie drug addicts, alcholics, compulsive gamblers e.t.c who are emotionally dependent on them. Their life revolves around trying to rescue their man, if he shows any sign of independence they will often become disillusioned and move on to another victim who they can save.

 

[cyclonus]

Challenge can certainly "create" attraction, but within a very specific context.

What value does a real diamond have that an synthetic diamond does not? Why choose one over the other?

Then again, neither present any value if you cannot see them. So some sort of advertising or display of value must be made, but what happens when their aesthetic value is identical? You choose the diamond simply because it's "the diamond". It's given value because it's rare and a challenge to find.

Challenge only plays a role when there is some sort of competition involved, and since there is always competition involved in the larger context of choosing, it plays a large role. Whether or not it plays a large role in the immediate context, like the sarging ground (bar/club/supermarket) is relative to how much competition is involved. For example, at very social gatherings like clubs and parties, where a large percentage of guys might be "smooth", challenge will certainly play a greater role and create an attraction. Another example of immediate context would be a temporal one, like if the girl has been hit on several times that day.

Contrast this to a more 1on1 situation, like her sitting at your apartment alone with you and the concept of "challenge" becomes a little more moot. Instead, things which are more likely to cause attraction in this situation are the atmosphere you create and the words you use.

 

[SexPDX]

Originally posted by MysteryWoman:

Not all women like a challenge, a lot don't go for Alpha men either. Although this site is good, alot of the issues discussed are a bit to black and white.

Why the disappoving thumbs down icon? I agree with what you are saying. I brought up alphaness because that is ONE method of demonstrating value and I am pointing out that there are many other ways of doing so.

Nick

------------------
- The seductionist formerly known as trickynick

You either own the game or it owns you.

~"Pon atencion al latido de tu corazon...y el ritmo de tu respiracion...como te permites llegar a ser completamente llevada...por la conexion que esta tomando lugar." ~

 

[BigBallz]

I also notaced that a lot of people post replys to threads out of the chalange of convincing other people of their point of view. People came to this site out of interest of the subject. Many continue to post to convince others of their views. We like to broden our knoledge of the subject (gaining knoledge is gaining power), and convince others of what our points of views are. Many long threads are due to the chalange of convincing others of the point. Granted there are other issues, but you can't say that the challange aspect isn't there, and it does not interest you the slightest.

It is interesting when people say they don't care for a post yet still take the time to reply to it?

Just something to think about. Good post though, and I agree with SexPDX

BigBallz AKA Player69

 

[SexPDX]

Originally posted by cyclonus:
Challenge can certainly "create" attraction, but within a very specific context.

What value does a real diamond have that an synthetic diamond does not? Why choose one over the other?

Then again, neither present any value if you cannot see them. So some sort of advertising or display of value must be made, but what happens when their aesthetic value is identical? You choose the diamond simply because it's "the diamond". It's given value because it's rare and a challenge to find.

So it has value because it is rare. Being rare is different then being a challenge. I was not talking about a challenge to FIND, but a challenge to OBTAIN. Also rare does not equate to valuable in all cases. Petrified sewer rat sh!t is pretty rare too I am imagine but I don't see it as valuable enough to try to obtain.

Originally Posted By Cyclonus:

Challenge only plays a role when there is some sort of competition involved, and since there is always competition involved in the larger context of choosing, it plays a large role. Whether or not it plays a large role in the immediate context, like the sarging ground (bar/club/supermarket) is relative to how much competition is involved. For example, at very social gatherings like clubs and parties, where a large percentage of guys might be "smooth", challenge will certainly play a greater role and create an attraction. Another example of immediate context would be a temporal one, like if the girl has been hit on several times that day.

Clubs are all about looks and social proof. Social proof is of way of showing the APPEARANCE of value in a superficial environment (which clubs are). You are PERCIEVED as having value of SOME kind since other women see value in you but exactly where it comes from is not known to her. Social proof gets you attention, but even WHEN YOU HAVE IT you still have to approach and then show REAL value, the only difference is that she is more receptive to your approach because of your PERCIEVED value. Where does challenge play a role here that it doesn't anywhere else? It has no effect on the initial attraction, only an existing one.

How does a greater percentage of guys being "smooth" (I don't even know what you are talking about) make challenge play a "greater" role in creating an attraction? You lost me on that sentence in a number of ways. More smooth guys? I have sarged clubs for 2 years now and I think most guys in there are hopelessly AFC. Challenge play a greater role? It plays NO ROLE, cyc, not in the INITIAL attraction. What the hell were you talking about in that sentence?

Originally Posted By Cyclonus:

Contrast this to a more 1on1 situation, like her sitting at your apartment alone with you and the concept of "challenge" becomes a little more moot. Instead, things which are more likely to cause attraction in this situation are the atmosphere you create and the words you use.

Not just challenge is moot, your whole bringing up of the situation is moot. How would you have gotten her alone with you in your apartment if you the initial attraction did not already exist?

Nick

------------------
- The seductionist formerly known as trickynick

You either own the game or it owns you.

~"Pon atencion al latido de tu corazon...y el ritmo de tu respiracion...como te permites llegar a ser completamente llevada...por la conexion que esta tomando lugar." ~

 

[Doppler4000]

There was actually a study done that showed the subject of this post to be true. The final result was that people found others to be most attractive when they perceived that the other person was a challenge to everyone EXCEPT themselves.

I think what happens here is that you tell a guy who's used to smothering chicks to become a challenge and they actually just end up breaking even and being normal.

 

[ESPN]

Originally posted by SexPDX:
All good stuff, guys, but there is A LOT more to it than that.

I also think there are A LOT more in DavidDeangelo stuff than ****y+funny, seriuosly, it can became VERY powerful when you fully MASTER that material.

 

[Vatican]

Be different in a good way. You impose some social proof, throw in some stories to show that you're a sex god, use a little bit of kino--and there's nothing else that you need. The rest is if you want to challenge yourself. Really, getting women is so easy I'm surprised this board even exists.

 

[aurora]

If you value something, then you do not wish to lose it right? That is where the concept of challenge comes in to play. If a girl does not value you then she does not give a fyck whether she loses you or not. By being a challenge you create uncertainty in her mind as to whether you are going to be around or not. Ergo, her interest level will go up, because she will be thinking of you more and worrying if you will be around.

Attraction and challenge go hand in hand. If a girl is not attracted to you its no use being a challenge because she does not value you. Physical attraction is not enough either. She may think you are just a pretty face and just write you off. I agree you must establish a rapport. Then after you have shown your value you then make it known to her that you are not to be taken for granted.

No challenge does not create attraction. For challenge to be relevant there must be attraction and rapport from the start.

 

[Princess-Spock]

"Attraction" just means "excitement that could lead to sexual interest." In scientific terms, "excitement" refers to the release of adrenaline into the bloodstream. If you can cause that release of adrenaline, you have created excitement, aka attraction to you.

What causes the release of adrenaline in response to a person?


1) Physical beauty; we see someone who we find to be a hottie and are instantly excited. We can do many things to make ourselves seem more beautiful/handsome, from working out to dressing well.

2) Status; someone who has $, power, achievements, certain careers (doctor, stripper), and even possessions (house, cool car) is seen as more desirable, and someone meeting a high-status person often gets excited. Status is hard to get, but worth it.

3) A quick "click"; if someone we've just met turns out to have alot of the same likes and interests as we do, and/or can make us feel immediate liking for them via charm and humor, excitement is generally the result. We can try to be funnier and more charming; beware of faking having the same interests, though, because you're out of the game if you're caught out (and you usually will be).

4) Situational excitement; someone who just reached a goal, won something, or even just saw their fave band in concert is bursting with adrenaline, and they can easily transfer some of that feeling to YOU if you hit on them then.

5) FEAR; yes, adrenaline also comes from fear, and, while being attacked by a knife-wielding psycho is NOT "exciting," we tend to eagerly go for "fake danger," like horror movies, rollercoasters... and bad boys/girls, so meeting a "dangerous"-seeming person is exciting. Something as simple as wearing a biker t-shirt can make you seem a little "bad."

6) Novelty; anything new has a little excitement attached to it-remember the stir a new kid always caused in high school? Isn't there a buzz about new people at work? Try going to places where no one knows you to meet potential dates, and work FAST to use your narrow window of "hey, look, who's THAT?"


What do you do to KEEP adrenaline aka excitement aka attraction going after the initial rush fades? Aside from working whichever of the above got you in the door, you can use the other 2 things that cause adrenaline to juice things up.


7) Anger; this is why make-up sex is so good. This is a dangerous game, though, because you have to be able to get the other person riled enough to have alot of adrenaline but not so much that they won't be willing to end the fight and have make-up sex.


******* and, the BIGGIE.... *******


8) *****UNCERTAINTY*****; if the other person doesn't know what you'll do, what's going on, what you think, or what you feel, they automatically have confusion and doubts, and that creates anxiety (which is the cousin of fear).... and that means it creates adrenaline=excitement=attraction.

THIS why tactics like "play hard to get," "keep him/her guessing," "be a challenge," "send mixed signals," etc WORK; they keep the other person uncertain, and, if they have any shred of interest in you (and often even if they don't), you will seem exciting to them.

THIS is why being a puppy dog or a clinging vine does NOT cause attraction in most people (some DO love it, though, let's not over-generalize), because there is NO uncertainty and therefore NO excitement. THIS is why being "too nice" and showing your interest too clearly and consistently usually gets you shot down, because there is NO uncertainty and thus NO excitement.

Sorry for the long post; it all boils down to this:


UNCERTAINTY=ANXIETY=ADRENALINE=EXCITEMENT=ATTRACTION

 

[cyclonus]

Very good post. Btw, how did you find this site?

You make bring up a lot of great points and issues that are very important when playing the game, but the topic is what 'creates' attraction. Now, you mention uncertainty. But is that enough? What prevents the girl across the room from me from being "attracted" to me, as she does not know what I am thinking about her, whether or not I'll walk up and make an approach? Even if she were to look at me and focus her attention on me, looks totally aside. Is her uncertainty in what I am thinking about her enough to cause her to feel attracted towards me?

 

[Princess-Spock]

Thank you!! I found this site when I followed a link from over at Cosmopolitan magazine's site.

Uncertainty is the tool to MAINTAIN adrenaline (attraction); the first 6 points I made all refer to how you CREATE adrenaline-sorry if that was unclear (I know, my posts are VERY long, LOL). I added the part about keeping attraction since others had speculated on it, and it fit easily with the other points.

The girl across the room from you is judging you the same way you're judging HER, with the only thing you'd GOT to judge someone by when all you know about them is their appearance... by appearance. Physical beauty, grooming, style, posture, body language, expression, even indications of wealth and social position create the "judgment at a distance" and determine interest level.

You CAN use uncertainty on that hypothetical woman, though, IF she's checking YOU out; try giving her a smoking look and then, unexpectedly, turning away and ignoring her-the mixed message will make YOU the center of her thoughts!!

[This message has been edited by Princess-Spock (edited 07-20-2002).]

 

[Bonhomme]

I've found that being a bit of a challenge is a good *addition* to your other attractive traits. It's valuable, but secondary. And overdoing it -- intentionally or unintentionally -- will often KILL a woman's attraction for you. The gal will either write you off as not interested enough, a game-player (busted!), or a wuss.

I've found that one's *presence* is one of the greatest and most underrated attractions to women. Just the sort of aura you have. It's definitely part of the "alpha male" thing, but works for guys who would not normally be considered the "top dog," for lack of a better way of stating it.