do you think BRUCE LEE could fight in real life?
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Sweetcheeks
Don Juan
BRUCE LEE - misconceptions and some facts
Bruce Lee was a physical phenomenon in terms of speed, co-ordination and reaction time.
He further enhanced his attributes with extensive and intelligent training.
He was also REVOLUTIONARY and WAY AHEAD OF HIS TIME in his practice of CROSS TRAINING, combining
-Multiple martial arts into a comprehensive system
-Recognizing the value of supplementing martial arts with exercise
He was great IN HIS DAY.
He never formally fought in the ring with HIGHLY TRAINED OPPONENTS, so it is difficult to say how tough a fighter he really was.
Engaging in streetfights where opponents were of questionable skill does not qualify as an indicator of how good a fighter a person is in relation to the TOP PROFESSIONAL FIGHTERS.
Professionals like Chuck Norris and other champs of the day trained with him because he had impressive theories to improve their game, but NONE OF THEM had actually FOUGHT him. They DID acknowledge his SKILL, however.
If you read his book TAO OF JKD, Bruce's preference as far as striking goes leans towards Western Boxing, Kickboxing and Savate. His grappling focus is more towards Judo for throws, and Jiu Jitsu/Judo type ground techniques.
I think that the modern martial arts world has caught up to him, as far as NHB sport fighting is concerned.
Just as the Gracie family's dominance in UFC and PRIDE has gradually dwindled as other competitors over the years improved their familiarity with various aspects of the game, Bruce's POTENTIAL dominance as a fighter would have dwindled as well.
Perhaps in his weight class, Bruce Lee would have been among the tops today. BUT, like it or not, SIZE AND STRENGTH MATTER.
I guarantee you that any decent heavyweight striker would hit harder than Bruce Lee, and would be able to handle more physical punishment by virtue of thicker tisse and bone. Any decent fighter also knows how to protect vital areas from damage, as well, so it would be unlikely that Bruce would land an incapacitating blow quickly enough to be overwhelmed by a much larger SKILLED opponent's size and strength.
Bruce Lee's obession with leanness and conditioning put him in a constant state of being overtrained. He was plagued by headaches, dizziness, insomnia and irritability during the filming of Enter the Dragon (the last film he completed prior to his death). He was NOT a happy, healthy, well balanced individual, according to eyewitness reports and testimony of those that knew him, his Brilliance notwithstanding.
Bruce Lee was a physical phenomenon in terms of speed, co-ordination and reaction time.
He further enhanced his attributes with extensive and intelligent training.
He was also REVOLUTIONARY and WAY AHEAD OF HIS TIME in his practice of CROSS TRAINING, combining
-Multiple martial arts into a comprehensive system
-Recognizing the value of supplementing martial arts with exercise
He was great IN HIS DAY.
He never formally fought in the ring with HIGHLY TRAINED OPPONENTS, so it is difficult to say how tough a fighter he really was.
Engaging in streetfights where opponents were of questionable skill does not qualify as an indicator of how good a fighter a person is in relation to the TOP PROFESSIONAL FIGHTERS.
Professionals like Chuck Norris and other champs of the day trained with him because he had impressive theories to improve their game, but NONE OF THEM had actually FOUGHT him. They DID acknowledge his SKILL, however.
If you read his book TAO OF JKD, Bruce's preference as far as striking goes leans towards Western Boxing, Kickboxing and Savate. His grappling focus is more towards Judo for throws, and Jiu Jitsu/Judo type ground techniques.
I think that the modern martial arts world has caught up to him, as far as NHB sport fighting is concerned.
Just as the Gracie family's dominance in UFC and PRIDE has gradually dwindled as other competitors over the years improved their familiarity with various aspects of the game, Bruce's POTENTIAL dominance as a fighter would have dwindled as well.
Perhaps in his weight class, Bruce Lee would have been among the tops today. BUT, like it or not, SIZE AND STRENGTH MATTER.
I guarantee you that any decent heavyweight striker would hit harder than Bruce Lee, and would be able to handle more physical punishment by virtue of thicker tisse and bone. Any decent fighter also knows how to protect vital areas from damage, as well, so it would be unlikely that Bruce would land an incapacitating blow quickly enough to be overwhelmed by a much larger SKILLED opponent's size and strength.
Bruce Lee's obession with leanness and conditioning put him in a constant state of being overtrained. He was plagued by headaches, dizziness, insomnia and irritability during the filming of Enter the Dragon (the last film he completed prior to his death). He was NOT a happy, healthy, well balanced individual, according to eyewitness reports and testimony of those that knew him, his Brilliance notwithstanding.
Re: BRUCE LEE - misconceptions and some facts
Very good breakdown! Especially the part about OVERTRAINED, and SIZE AND STRENGTH DO MATTER! It is so annoying how guys here think a fast, ripped guy has an equal advantage! It is common sense that the good big guy will always beat the good little guy! Further, being very ripped is not good for your body!
Re: Re: BRUCE LEE - misconceptions and some facts
This is about the size and strength matter comment.
Actually in my experience they really don't. If I really had a say, size and strength and speed and all other factor, otherwise if I had another say, size and strength aren't the only factor that mattered.
If size and strength mattered, then Royce Gracie (and his whole Gracie family) would've not dominated the ring and never should have. Today they still do pretty good.
This goes the same for Sakuraba and any other small fighter.
This would make Bob Sapp and the likes be ring domineer but they're not.
Cro Cop easily won against Bob Sapp and I believe Cro Cop was about 100lb. short from the massive 300lb. Bob Sapp.
A 100lb. difference!
And as for my own experience? I've beaten people two head taller than me and 60lb. more muscles than me.
For you and Sweetcheeks...
This is about the size and strength matter comment.
Actually in my experience they really don't. If I really had a say, size and strength and speed and all other factor, otherwise if I had another say, size and strength aren't the only factor that mattered.
If size and strength mattered, then Royce Gracie (and his whole Gracie family) would've not dominated the ring and never should have. Today they still do pretty good.
This goes the same for Sakuraba and any other small fighter.
This would make Bob Sapp and the likes be ring domineer but they're not.
Cro Cop easily won against Bob Sapp and I believe Cro Cop was about 100lb. short from the massive 300lb. Bob Sapp.
A 100lb. difference!
And as for my own experience? I've beaten people two head taller than me and 60lb. more muscles than me.
Sweetcheeks
Don Juan
Sifer, you're neglecting SKILL LEVEL
A small guy WILL WIN if there is a SIGNIFICANT GAP IN SKILL LEVEL/CONDITIONING. The bigger the size/strength difference, the more skilled the smaller guy needs to be to beat the bigger guy.
Your example of Cro Cop (Heavyweight World Class kickboxer) vs. Bob Sapp (SUPER Heabyweight Novice fighter) illustrates that a SKILLED guy can defeat a MUCH LARGER UNSKILLED guy.
If you want an example to illustrate my point regarding SIMILAR SKILL with a SIZE DIFFERENCE, you can look at VANDERLEI SILVA VS. MARK HUNT, from about a year back in PRIDE.
Silva lost the decision to Hunt, despite the fact that he was slightly more skilled and landed more blows, simply because the cumulative effect of the blows he dealt did not deal as much damage as Hunt's fewer, but more powerful, blows landed on him.
If you have two guys of IDENTICAL SKILL, and one is larger and stronger with a reach advantage, and the smaller guy is faster, let us look at the factors that enter into a striking match:
REACH - Larger guy will take advantage of reach by keeping the smaller opponent at a distance, where large guy can reach small guy with strikes but small guy can't reach large guy. Advantage: Large guy, who will likely hit small guy with more punches because he can reach him, while small guy needs to find a way to enter while taking punishment (look at Lennox Lewis, who uses this strategy with success despite being a technically poor fighter)
FORCE OF PUNCHES - THey both know how to punch, but force = mass X velocity.
Large guy force = 10 mass X 7 speed = 70
Small guy force = 6 mass X 9 speed = 54
Advantage: Large guy
CAPACITY TO TAKE DAMAGE = Large guy has thicker bones, and more muscle and fat to dissipate force of blows SIGNIFICANTLY from small guy. Think of an SUV crashing into a small car.
WEIGHT - Striking has more to do with shifting weight and timing than it does with strength. That is why a skilled smaller guy can hit harder than untrained bigger guys. However, this is also why a trained larger guy will hit harder than a similarly skilled smaller guy.
And when the large guy is tired, his weight remains constant and compensates for lack of strength, whereas when small guy gets tired, his weight does not compensate as much for lack of strength (especially in grappling situations)
At a very athletic 155 lbs, I routinely submit much larger opponents than myself on the mat. Most of my opponents are over 200 lbs. I can tell you that the athletic 180 lb novices are a lot easier to beat than the athletic 220 pound novices.
My friend's older brother is a semi-fit 300 lb former football player. I submitted him a few times the first couple of sessions I grappled him. However, over the next several months, as my friend continued to train him and teach him and he became more experienced, it became more and more difficult to beat him.
Finally, why do you think they have WEIGHT CLASSES?
A small guy WILL WIN if there is a SIGNIFICANT GAP IN SKILL LEVEL/CONDITIONING. The bigger the size/strength difference, the more skilled the smaller guy needs to be to beat the bigger guy.
Your example of Cro Cop (Heavyweight World Class kickboxer) vs. Bob Sapp (SUPER Heabyweight Novice fighter) illustrates that a SKILLED guy can defeat a MUCH LARGER UNSKILLED guy.
If you want an example to illustrate my point regarding SIMILAR SKILL with a SIZE DIFFERENCE, you can look at VANDERLEI SILVA VS. MARK HUNT, from about a year back in PRIDE.
Silva lost the decision to Hunt, despite the fact that he was slightly more skilled and landed more blows, simply because the cumulative effect of the blows he dealt did not deal as much damage as Hunt's fewer, but more powerful, blows landed on him.
If you have two guys of IDENTICAL SKILL, and one is larger and stronger with a reach advantage, and the smaller guy is faster, let us look at the factors that enter into a striking match:
REACH - Larger guy will take advantage of reach by keeping the smaller opponent at a distance, where large guy can reach small guy with strikes but small guy can't reach large guy. Advantage: Large guy, who will likely hit small guy with more punches because he can reach him, while small guy needs to find a way to enter while taking punishment (look at Lennox Lewis, who uses this strategy with success despite being a technically poor fighter)
FORCE OF PUNCHES - THey both know how to punch, but force = mass X velocity.
Large guy force = 10 mass X 7 speed = 70
Small guy force = 6 mass X 9 speed = 54
Advantage: Large guy
CAPACITY TO TAKE DAMAGE = Large guy has thicker bones, and more muscle and fat to dissipate force of blows SIGNIFICANTLY from small guy. Think of an SUV crashing into a small car.
WEIGHT - Striking has more to do with shifting weight and timing than it does with strength. That is why a skilled smaller guy can hit harder than untrained bigger guys. However, this is also why a trained larger guy will hit harder than a similarly skilled smaller guy.
And when the large guy is tired, his weight remains constant and compensates for lack of strength, whereas when small guy gets tired, his weight does not compensate as much for lack of strength (especially in grappling situations)
At a very athletic 155 lbs, I routinely submit much larger opponents than myself on the mat. Most of my opponents are over 200 lbs. I can tell you that the athletic 180 lb novices are a lot easier to beat than the athletic 220 pound novices.
My friend's older brother is a semi-fit 300 lb former football player. I submitted him a few times the first couple of sessions I grappled him. However, over the next several months, as my friend continued to train him and teach him and he became more experienced, it became more and more difficult to beat him.
Finally, why do you think they have WEIGHT CLASSES?
Best friends? NAY
Senior Don Juan
Sweetcheecks your math is a little funny. It could have been like this.
Big guy = 9 mass X 6 speed = 54
Small guy = 7 mass X 10 speed = 70
Advantage small guy.
But I do agree with your basic principle. All things being equal the bigger guy will win.
Big guy = 9 mass X 6 speed = 54
Small guy = 7 mass X 10 speed = 70
Advantage small guy.
But I do agree with your basic principle. All things being equal the bigger guy will win.
wootapotky
Senior Don Juan
Force is actually mass times acceleration. Mass times velocity is momentum.
jiza101
Master Don Juan
:woo:
I met jacky chan and Chuck Norris while my uncle was doing a film here in aus. My uncle is Richard Norton who is basically a martial arts dude. Jacky Chan was really nice, and so was Chuck Norris..
BTW bruce lee was a nutcase, he could kick multiple asses.
I met jacky chan and Chuck Norris while my uncle was doing a film here in aus. My uncle is Richard Norton who is basically a martial arts dude. Jacky Chan was really nice, and so was Chuck Norris..
BTW bruce lee was a nutcase, he could kick multiple asses.
Deadly_Assassin
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I once read a quote, I dunno who its by
"Its not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, but the size of fight in the dog that does."
"Its not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, but the size of fight in the dog that does."
People are mistaking what I said, I didnt say skill doesnt matter, that is EXACTLY why I said, a GOOD big guy will always (not always, but the vast majority of the time), beat a GOOD small guy.
Why do you think Oscar De La Hoya doesnt fight Mike Tyson?
Why are there weight divisions in nearly every single martial arts and boxing (including kick), sport?
A guy with high skill weighing 200 pounds, will nearly ALWAYS beat a guy weighing 140 pounds with high skill.
When you get up around the 300 pounds mark, the weight does not matter as much, hence why the heavyweight division in most sports is a certain weight (not that high) and above!
Why do you think Oscar De La Hoya doesnt fight Mike Tyson?
Why are there weight divisions in nearly every single martial arts and boxing (including kick), sport?
A guy with high skill weighing 200 pounds, will nearly ALWAYS beat a guy weighing 140 pounds with high skill.
When you get up around the 300 pounds mark, the weight does not matter as much, hence why the heavyweight division in most sports is a certain weight (not that high) and above!
Re: Re: Re: BRUCE LEE - misconceptions and some facts
Who cares about the forearm size etc, that doesnt mean ANYTHING! It comes down to weight. Mike Tyson for the first fight
weight: 218lbs (Tyson) V 228lbs (bruno)
Second fight:
weight: 220lbs (Tyson) V 247lbs (bruno).
Not a big difference, no?
Considering Lee didnt weigh anywhere near that weight.
Now put Bruno (who did loose), or Tyson if you want, in with Sugar Ray Robinson (who was the greatest boxer to EVER live). Robinson would have been mauled, hence the reason he fought at from lightweight upto light-heavy. And this is not just in boxing, this is in all martial arts competitions, this is why they have weight divisions. I dont think the greatest lightweight in ANY martial art, would have beaten the greatest heavyweight in the same sport.
I am not huge, weight about 160lbs, and I KNOW my limits, just because I am a lot faster than most guys, does not mean I can beat them, I KNOW this. I can however, maul most big guys, but one with equal skill? Dont think so. Exactly the reason why a lot of small guys had no problem handling the Italian greatest disgrace to heavyweight boxing in history!
Once again, HEAVYWEIGHTS!
Who cares about the forearm size etc, that doesnt mean ANYTHING! It comes down to weight. Mike Tyson for the first fight
weight: 218lbs (Tyson) V 228lbs (bruno)
Second fight:
weight: 220lbs (Tyson) V 247lbs (bruno).
Not a big difference, no?
Considering Lee didnt weigh anywhere near that weight.
Now put Bruno (who did loose), or Tyson if you want, in with Sugar Ray Robinson (who was the greatest boxer to EVER live). Robinson would have been mauled, hence the reason he fought at from lightweight upto light-heavy. And this is not just in boxing, this is in all martial arts competitions, this is why they have weight divisions. I dont think the greatest lightweight in ANY martial art, would have beaten the greatest heavyweight in the same sport.
I am not huge, weight about 160lbs, and I KNOW my limits, just because I am a lot faster than most guys, does not mean I can beat them, I KNOW this. I can however, maul most big guys, but one with equal skill? Dont think so. Exactly the reason why a lot of small guys had no problem handling the Italian greatest disgrace to heavyweight boxing in history!
Dust 2 Dust,
You need to do your homework before making up false facts. Bruce did not lose that fight. He beat the crap out of that guy in less than 5 minutes. Be carefull about where you hear these lies.
He actually had to get into a lot of street fights throughout his life because people thought he wasn't much of anything but an actor,and because he decided to teach a lot of ancient martial arts to Americans. He would have martial artists come from Hong Kong to his house in America just to fight him while he was grilling a burger in his own back yard. Every one of them found out how good Bruce really was,and it took a lot of effort to get Bruce to actually fight.
Bruce was not into competitions in America,but his students(one of them Chuck Noris) were untouchable with the skills that Bruce taught them.
He not only trained his physique. He was extremely intelligent which puts him way ahead of 99% of any one that would challenge him.
Size doesn't matter if you are smarter than your opponent. Remember Ali?
You need to do your homework before making up false facts. Bruce did not lose that fight. He beat the crap out of that guy in less than 5 minutes. Be carefull about where you hear these lies.
He actually had to get into a lot of street fights throughout his life because people thought he wasn't much of anything but an actor,and because he decided to teach a lot of ancient martial arts to Americans. He would have martial artists come from Hong Kong to his house in America just to fight him while he was grilling a burger in his own back yard. Every one of them found out how good Bruce really was,and it took a lot of effort to get Bruce to actually fight.
Bruce was not into competitions in America,but his students(one of them Chuck Noris) were untouchable with the skills that Bruce taught them.
He not only trained his physique. He was extremely intelligent which puts him way ahead of 99% of any one that would challenge him.
Size doesn't matter if you are smarter than your opponent. Remember Ali?
DJ_in_making
Master Don Juan
Ludacris-- Hustle & Flow
I_Only_Live_Once
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UFC and pride is not real fighting, it's a sport. There are rules regarding where and how you can hit a person's head for example. Another rule is you cannot manipulate small joints, and no head butting.