Do You Eject From pseudo-friend zone dates immediately?

[BlueAlpha1]

Assuming the girl is good company do you eject the moment you realize you're probably not getting laid or relax and have a good time with a stranger? So much advice is here conflicting.

DJ1 "Be direct and escalate quickly"
DJ2 "Be aloof and eliminate desperation"

I met this HB7 at a hostel last week and she continued onto my city today. So I took her to a theme park tonight and for drinks after but the tone from the date was non-sexual early on. She had her hair in a bun and wore no makeup. Her little purse found its way between us on the ferriss wheel. And at one point she looked me dead in the eyes on the train and with a grin said "this is not a date, it's a hangout".

I stayed because I found her charming and returned disinterest in kind, and the date still went 7 hours. She liked my jokes and even asked permission to check her phone one time (politeness almost unheard of from an American girl)

She was a little taken aback when I tried to regain frame and blew her off when she went for the friendzone hug at the end. It's one thing to imply that I'm in the friendzone but it's another to overtly try to display it. That's when I turn into a real a-hole. I came off feeling I'd regained some frame, as the look on her face was priceless. That aloof attitude will drove some girls crazy. She texted a few times since I saw her off.

I get the feeling if she were local there'd be room to regain frame but she's only in town 2 more days and then moving on. I likely won't ever see her again but I can take it as a learning experience.

Do you have a zero tolerance policy for non-sexual dates? I'm a little concerned my game is just bad. I don't "date" a lot but this is two girls in a row (both foreign) that went nowhere

 

[Wilko]

Sounds like you read the situation well, you seem pretty self-aware.

Gotta say, I enjoyed the recovery at the end

Hmmm, seven hour date, two days in town...? I think you had a logistics problem more than anything else. Most girls won't escalate in public beyond light kino (spring break notwithstanding). You needed a very deliberate plan where you could "accidentally" end up somewhere private (I'm sure they think this stuff just magically happens).

I think she'll hint at wanting to see you again. If that happens, escalate via text & make it very sexual - DON'T set up another date, too much energy invested already. If she's receptive, solve those logistics and smash. If she isn't, cut your losses.

"Do you have a zero tolerance policy for non-sexual dates? I'm a little concerned my game is just bad. I don't "date" a lot but this is two girls in a row (both foreign) that went nowhere"

Good question.

First date I never expect to smash. For me, it's always a low investment, are you who you say you are kind of thing. Looking for light kino if I find her attractive in person. The key there is "low investment", i.e. not a seven hour blowout!

Second date I'm going in with a plan, making sure I've got places and opportunities to escalate. It doesn't have to end in sex, but it needs to be sexual. If not, things end there.

 

[Who Dares Win]

I believe you played it right altough every guy is different so what is good to me may not be good for you, some like the escalation while others can just chill out with a girl.

Personally in my case Im fine with the non sexual meeting as long as she drops any request that a sexual date can ask, if we're just hanging out bills are split and the frame is the same one of a friendly meeting, no special treatment and so on.

But if she makes a point to remind me that she is deciding the outcome, reminding me that "there wont be sex" in order to show that she is running the game and Im in position nr.2, then it becomes a pleasure to return her the favour and burn her self confidence the same way she had no problem attemptin to burn mine.

I opened a thread few months ago about a date with a girl that was somehow behaving like that and the only thing she got from me was a wine glass before her intentions and behaviour was clear, once she burned herself I made her pay for her own 2 euros cheesburger, dropped her at the taxi station and shown my lack of interested when she inted of date two, no calls or text from me after that day.

I believe a strict no bull**** policy is mandatory and if every man was to opt for one, the situation would be better for all of us.

 

[RangerMIke]

Next time a women comes out and telling you that you are NOT on a date, but she calls it something else.... Get a big smile on your face look her straight in the eyes and say, "Call this whatever you want." Then ignore the statement, act the way you would always act on a date. Do not change anything.

You are the man, do not let her define or control you. She is out with you, she has already voted to give you a shot. Now it is up to you to make something happen. Let her end the date if things are getting too hot and she isn't ready to move forward. When this happens, back off.

NEVER pay ANY attention to what a women says, only what she does. She told you nothing was going to happen, and you went along with it. If you had continued to push you would have either had her, or she would have made an excuse and left.

 

[Von]

From my hostel experience, girls want to get laid but will wait until the "last day"

You read situation perfectly in my opinion.

However, I would accept the last invite, call the shoot, headup in intimate view/private, kino.

At home, a girl who Invite you over to watch a movie, than put her stuff between you and her, talks about ex she just separated from, online dating, rebounds.... I would disappear or escalate at round2

Traveling, she hinted stuff, she invites over, she's leaving soon, why not give a shoot nothing to lose (no ties).

Unless you get laid with another

 

[marmel75]

You escalate in date and be aloof when not around her. It's not a hard concept to get.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Sounds like you read the situation well, you seem pretty self-aware.

Gotta say, I enjoyed the recovery at the end

Hmmm, seven hour date, two days in town...? I think you had a logistics problem more than anything else. Most girls won't escalate in public beyond light kino (spring break notwithstanding). You needed a very deliberate plan where you could "accidentally" end up somewhere private (I'm sure they think this stuff just magically happens).

I think she'll hint at wanting to see you again. If that happens, escalate via text & make it very sexual - DON'T set up another date, too much energy invested already. If she's receptive, solve those logistics and smash. If she isn't, cut your losses.

Yes I am very self-aware. On this exact same date 2 years ago I'd be walking around with my dlck in my hand, and that's easy for a girl to notice. As soon as she went asexual on me, I returned in kind the rest of the night to save face. I didn't see that as grounds to end the night though - we were having fun/

I honestly don't think she was that into me and don't think she'll initiate again. But if nothing else, I hope the nonchalance at least threw her for a loop, because with her accent and style I'm sure she's being hit on by 100 guys a week.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

I believe you played it right altough every guy is different so what is good to me may not be good for you, some like the escalation while others can just chill out with a girl.

Personally in my case Im fine with the non sexual meeting as long as she drops any request that a sexual date can ask, if we're just hanging out bills are split and the frame is the same one of a friendly meeting, no special treatment and so on.

But if she makes a point to remind me that she is deciding the outcome, reminding me that "there wont be sex" in order to show that she is running the game and Im in position nr.2, then it becomes a pleasure to return her the favour and burn her self confidence the same way she had no problem attemptin to burn mine.

I opened a thread few months ago about a date with a girl that was somehow behaving like that and the only thing she got from me was a wine glass before her intentions and behaviour was clear, once she burned herself I made her pay for her own 2 euros cheesburger, dropped her at the taxi station and shown my lack of interested when she inted of date two, no calls or text from me after that day.

I believe a strict no bull**** policy is mandatory and if every man was to opt for one, the situation would be better for all of us.

She was up front and honest about evening out on money. I offered one drink at the end long after we established this was "not a date". That was just a nice gesture at the end of the night to get a 3rd drink into her system and see if anything changed.

Didn't seem like a big power struggle going on. In fact she was a lady most of the night, showing ideal behavior you'd expect on a date (she's from New Zealand, not the west, which explains why she's been able to maintain a semblance of charm). That's why it burns a little that she wasn't attracted to me. I was very attracted to her and saw her as one of those chicks that could put your BPD out of your mind forever, one that actually did compare.

Next time a women comes out and telling you that you are NOT on a date, but she calls it something else.... Get a big smile on your face look her straight in the eyes and say, "Call this whatever you want." Then ignore the statement, act the way you would always act on a date. Do not change anything.

You are the man, do not let her define or control you. She is out with you, she has already voted to give you a shot. Now it is up to you to make something happen. Let her end the date if things are getting too hot and she isn't ready to move forward. When this happens, back off.

NEVER pay ANY attention to what a women says, only what she does. She told you nothing was going to happen, and you went along with it. If you had continued to push you would have either had her, or she would have made an excuse and left.

I had the first part of this down. My knee-jerk reaction was handled well. Even though the comment was unbecoming, I wasn't going to show her that. I was coy as fvck.

I probably should have continued to escalate from there. I am coming off a date not too long ago (3 months maybe) that played out very similar to this and I struck out. That was my first time in my adult life (since high school probably) I got rejected like that. It was so weird, ad I didn't like that girl nearly as much as this one. I would have rather not shown this one anything and gone home empty handed than to have shown her my hand and struck out.

Yes, my resistance to rejection still needs a lot of work.

 

[marmel75]

Assuming the girl is good company do you eject the moment you realize you're probably not getting laid or relax and have a good time with a stranger? So much advice is here conflicting.

DJ1 "Be direct and escalate quickly"
DJ2 "Be aloof and eliminate desperation"

I met this HB7 at a hostel last week and she continued onto my city today. So I took her to a theme park tonight and for drinks after but the tone from the date was non-sexual early on. She had her hair in a bun and wore no makeup. Her little purse found its way between us on the ferriss wheel. And at one point she looked me dead in the eyes on the train and with a grin said "this is not a date, it's a hangout".

I stayed because I found her charming and returned disinterest in kind, and the date still went 7 hours. She liked my jokes and even asked permission to check her phone one time (politeness almost unheard of from an American girl)

She was a little taken aback when I tried to regain frame and blew her off when she went for the friendzone hug at the end. It's one thing to imply that I'm in the friendzone but it's another to overtly try to display it. That's when I turn into a real a-hole. I came off feeling I'd regained some frame, as the look on her face was priceless. That aloof attitude will drove some girls crazy. She texted a few times since I saw her off.

I get the feeling if she were local there'd be room to regain frame but she's only in town 2 more days and then moving on. I likely won't ever see her again but I can take it as a learning experience.

Do you have a zero tolerance policy for non-sexual dates? I'm a little concerned my game is just bad. I don't "date" a lot but this is two girls in a row (both foreign) that went nowhere

It's irrelevant what she wants to call it. You force her to reject you by escalating.

Yet another case of paying attention to her words rather than her actions. Her actions tell you she wanted you to do something if you could only not be so flustered by a little comment that completely changed what you wanted. Simply put, she controlled you like a puppet with one sentence.

Men who succeed with women don't pay attention to dumb sh!t like this, they disregard it, laugh it off and attempt to go for what they want, and more often than not get it.

You trying to pretend like you didn't want it still makes you like you are walking around with your d!ck in your hands because you didn't know what to do.

Never disengage before escalating at least 3 times in person.

 

[oOh Nasty]

I think you played the aloof part pretty well. I do feel for you though for having to sit through this whole situation for a whopping 7 hours.

You know the situation better than anyone else here, so maybe it felt okay for you to just be completely comfortable and cool with the fact that you were giving your time to a woman who, according to you, had a high chance of not sleeping with you.

I believe, if this were to happen a second time around, I'd play the same kind of aloof and coolness. The difference would be, I'd start devising a way to end the "date" short as to not waste anymore time, or, if I still feel in my gut that escalation may work, look for ways to isolate ASAP.

In my opinion, you nailed the most important part though. The part that you stayed unaffected and accepted the circumstances so nonchalantly.

 

[marmel75]

I think you played the aloof part pretty well. I do feel for you though for having to sit through this whole situation for a whopping 7 hours.

You know the situation better than anyone else here, so maybe it felt okay for you to just be completely comfortable and cool with the fact that you were giving your time to a woman who, according to you, had a high chance of not sleeping with you.

I believe, if this were to happen a second time around, I'd play the same kind of aloof and coolness. The difference would be, I'd start devising a way to end the "date" short as to not waste anymore time, or, if I still feel in my gut that escalation may work, look for ways to isolate ASAP.

In my opinion, you nailed the most important part though. The part that you stayed unaffected and accepted the circumstances so nonchalantly.

Acting aloof is for between dates. Escalating is for in person. Too many people try and do the reverse...play aloof in person and escalate via the phone or texting. Usually with poor results.

Men go for what they want regardless of what comes out of a woman's mouth. They don't look for "signs" or "IOIs" they just go for it. Those are irrelevant to the outcome, so stop wasting time looking for them. If you let something as simple as that prevent you from going for what you want, you aren't going to be getting laid very often.

 

[oOh Nasty]

Acting aloof is for between dates. Escalating is for in person. Too many people try and do the reverse...play aloof in person and escalate via the phone or texting. Usually with poor results.

Men go for what they want regardless of what comes out of a woman's mouth. They don't look for "signs" or "IOIs" they just go for it. Those are irrelevant to the outcome, so stop wasting time looking fir them. If you let something as simple as that prevent you from going for what you want, you aren't going to be getting laid very often.

Perhaps "aloof" is the wrong word here. I think "unaffected" would better suit the point. He definitely should escalate and go for what he wants, which is why I and others have suggested isolation, as the chances increase tenfold that way.

I was applauding the OP for not becoming defensive or butt-hurt (as he states). Could he have done better? Of course. Did he waste 7 hours of his life? Probably. Will he know what to do next time? Definitely. That's the important part. Now he knows that from this point on, it's all about escalation. And if his gut tells him that this girl just ain't gonna give it up (after more than a reasonable amount of attempts at escalation), then it's ejection.

Perhaps what we can get out of this, is to not succumb so easily to "this is not a date, it's a hangout." It seems as if this girl was calling the shots and had the frame, but at the least, OP seemed to stay neutral and didn't exhibit any signs of angry, defeated beta. I know that irrelevancy is worse than anything else...but still...meh. Good learning experience and a seven-hour point of reference for future endeavors.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Men go for what they want regardless of what comes out of a woman's mouth. They don't look for "signs" or "IOIs" they just go for it. Those are irrelevant to the outcome, so stop wasting time looking for them. If you let something as simple as that prevent you from going for what you want, you aren't going to be getting laid very often.

So you're rubbing your hands on a woman's thigh an hour into meeting her each and every time, with no consideration for how she acts around you? Do you grab the bartender's tits because she greeted you friendly and you "wanted it"?

If you're good with getting rejected 95% of the time, a risk of getting slapped or having a girl yell rapist in a crowded room, this black and white approach is a great recipe.

In the real world it's actually about as extreme as women telling each other not to give it up until the 15th date. Unless of course you're one of the many posters on this board who has banged 220 women and has a 96% success rate at approach, but your advice wouldn't apply to me then

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Perhaps "aloof" is the wrong word here. I think "unaffected" would better suit the point. He definitely should escalate and go for what he wants, which is why I and others have suggested isolation, as the chances increase tenfold that way.

I was applauding the OP for not becoming defensive or butt-hurt (as he states). Could he have done better? Of course. Did he waste 7 hours of his life? Probably. Will he know what to do next time? Definitely. That's the important part. Now he knows that from this point on, it's all about escalation. And if his gut tells him that this girl just ain't gonna give it up (after more than a reasonable amount of attempts at escalation), then it's ejection.

Perhaps what we can get out of this, is to not succumb so easily to "this is not a date, it's a hangout." It seems as if this girl was calling the shots and had the frame, but at the least, OP seemed to stay neutral and didn't exhibit any signs of angry, defeated beta. I know that irrelevancy is worse than anything else...but still...meh. Good learning experience and a seven-hour point of reference for future endeavors.

Correct. Something like this. She was trying to establish hand and I had three options.

1. Go for it anyway and risk an awkward situation because I'm not a multi-millionaire stallion whose banged 600 girls, like half the other posters on this forum

2. Leave on the spot -- I have actually done this before with much less pleasant women, but I was having fun with this girl and think it would have been an extreme overreaction to a girl stating she wouldn't put out on the first date.

3. Stay for the alcohol, reverse the frame and play for a stalemate, which I feel I established.

The point of the thread was not to figure out how I could have tricked this girl into bed in a few hours, it was to see if anybody here had ever played for a stalemate (read: keeping frame) before with a girl they really liked.

Maybe I made the wrong call because I didn't get laid, but it could have ended much worse.

 

[marmel75]

So you're rubbing your hands on a woman's thigh an hour into meeting her each and every time, with no consideration for how she acts around you? Do you grab the bartender's tits because she greeted you friendly and you "wanted it"?

If you're good with getting rejected 95% of the time, a risk of getting slapped or having a girl yell rapist in a crowded room, this black and white approach is a great recipe.

In the real world it's actually about as extreme as women telling each other not to give it up until the 15th date. Unless of course you're one of the many posters on this board who has banged 220 women and has a 96% success rate at approach, but your advice wouldn't apply to me then

I'm not out on a date with a bartender.

Your mindset is very timid. Women want to be seduced, you just have to be skillful enough at doing it. Obviously you aren't.

Stop making excuses for your lack of success and start focusing on improving in person. And escalating.

You don't start off by rubbing their thigh. Go read my post in the OLD thread on proper escalation

 

[BlueAlpha1]

I'm not out on a date with a bartender.

Your mindset is very timid. Women want to be seduced, you just have to be skillful enough at doing it. Obviously you aren't.

Stop making excuses for your lack of success and start focusing on improving in person. And escalating.

You don't start off by rubbing their thigh. Go read my post in the OLD we section on proper escalation

I will check it out, and you might be right. On the next date I will try the opposite approach.

But just so we're on the same page, do you believe that no matter what variation of "we're not having sex tonight" you get, the answer is take what you want anyway?

 

[ubercat]

Absolutely. It avoids those 7 hour dates. It's important to keep First Dates short because it means you can have more of them. It's a numbers game the more girls you date the more you will find that are into you. At your age you should be having plenty of dates. When I'm single i find 2 a week is enough for me. But I also find I have a certain percentage of woman who really into me and tend to hang around. So it works out that I'm getting laid most weeks and that's enough for me. If I'm getting laid regularly law of averages means that one who is girlfriend quality will turn up sooner or later.

Guys on the subject of escalation. I m curious about a second date scenario. I had a couple of dates last year when I was just getting back onto the scene again where I actually got to third base on the date. Now I think one issue was it should have ended up in a same night lay. I've never been that great at getting them back to my place.

There's a couple of questions off this one.

If they've displayed that much interest should you try and book a date quickly. or should you follow the usual routine. Ie. Don't book a date while on a date. Wait a couple of days to contact them again.

Second question when you meet them again should it all be about the escalation. Ie. Arrange a physical set up where you can escalate quickly and crack on with it immediately. So basically is it like a ladder you've moved up a couple of rungs so you shouldn't go backwards.

I'm curious because I had declining interest levels from those 2 girls. Now it could have been many reasons. But one possibility is that I got on the Curve but didn't follow it.

 

[VladPatton]

I 'll cut them a bit shorter in length, and put on my best Oscar-worthy performance so she suspects nothing, and let her think sh!t is going her way. I'll delete and block her number while walking to the car because I'll never see her again.

 

[MrWiggles]

I will check it out, and you might be right. On the next date I will try the opposite approach.

But just so we're on the same page, do you believe that no matter what variation of "we're not having sex tonight" you get, the answer is take what you want anyway?

If she just out of the blue says we arent having sex tonight, take it as an opportunity to have sex with her. She is thinking about it, you just need to seduce her into thinking it was her idea.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

A few people are missing the point here. I don't feel I "wasted" 7 hours of my life at all. Any time you're having fun in public with a hot girl is far less of a waste of time than sitting on this forum or watching porn.

This business about all girls can be had on the 1st date because they're all sluts deep down is about as extreme as the feminists who put pu$$y at such a level that a guy has to work for months to get it. Maybe some can be had on one date, but I think most guys would agree a 3rd date bang is usually a reasonable expectation. The reason I fail here is because I had a one date window to close the deal.

The early LJBF might have been legit declaration of unattraction or just a ****t test. Don't know, but I do know you run the risk of getting shot down if you quickly go for it anyway. Instead I hedged my bets and opted to just relax and reframe, and I stayed because she was good company. But I am confused with this unfamiliar feeling of having a good time without getting laid - because 9/10 times I would eject. I think this is a testament to this girl's foreign charm, because this "neutral" feeling as others have put it aptly is new to me.

TL;DR - Going out with a non-western girl can be uncharacteristically fun in spite of a LJBF, and it may still be possible to maintain frame. So has anyone ever had a "neutral" feeling at the end of a date before?