Do Most Former Nice Guys Become Don Juans/PUAs Later in Their Lives? (Late 20s-30s)

wayword

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Frank2500 said:
You guys raise some important points. It just seems to me as if in American society, women think they have the right to burn men and hurt their own feelings and exploit, dump and use them at will with absolutely no remorse..and men treated that way have no right to complain. But if a man did such a thing to a woman, she will raise her voice all over the entire country. It's not fair, but that's the way life is. It isn't fair nor just to everyone.
Yup, welcome to our feminist utopia! :crackup: Just wait until Hillary becomes Prez!!!

Now Frank, how was your childhood? I wonder if you may have been raised in a female-dominant household...and if this helps to create the dreaded Nice Guy™ syndrome?
 

Maxtro

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In my earlier years, actually up until about 1-2 years ago, I was very much a nice guy that was really shy and quiet. It is the most horrible combination that can only lead to failure.

As I got older about 24-25 it suddenly dawned on me that if I want to get any action I need to open my mouth and start talking to the ladies. Then I made the effort to start conversations with the girls around me. I am not a DJ/PUA yet but I have made so much progress over the years, even though some of my posts here still show signs of being AFC.
 

Frank2500

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Re:

Many, many thanks to you guys for your responses. I never would have imagined this post getting so many hits since it has been discussed in different forms so many times before. I would have loved to be able to respond to everyone who addressed me personally, but I have a very stressful schedule during the week and I barely seem to remember things as well these days...so I'll just write a general response and focus on one or two people who I could remember addressed me personally.



First to Wayward, thank you very much for your question. No, I wasn't raised in a female-dominated home. However, I feel blessed to have two wonderful parents who have been married now for over 36 years and are in their mid-sixties, and who have four children. My Dad never treated my Mum with disrespect, never yelled at her, etc., and has constantly shown her love through both words and actions throughout their marriage. So has she. This really helped provide a stable atmosphere for my three older siblings and me growing up.


They love each other very much. Before my Dad married my Mum, and even within the first few years of their marriage, he wasn't making much money at the time. In fact, he could barely afford to meet up with all of the costs for their wedding and when they got married, my Mum actually earned more than he did. But she didn't reject him because of that. That shows how strong their love was. Both of them had studied overseas my Dad did his undergraduate education in Pennsylvania and his graduate courses in California in the late 50s-60s, and my Mum studied in England. They both met in my country and began dating, fell in love and got married.



You can therefore imagine my great surprise, after having grown up around my parents for so many years prior to coming to the U.S. for college, to notice instead the exact opposite in a lot of the women here-having no respect for men who treat women the right way, labeling them "too nice" and viewing that as a weakness, perceiving them as boring and unexciting, etc. It took me a while to adapt to the superficiality of dating here in America. I had to go through a series of heartbreaking and extremely painful experiences with women in this country for several years before finally realizing how it is over here.


As I had mentioned before in one of my posts a while ago, I think a lot of the problem has to do with the fact that compared to other women in the world, American women are for the most part very spoiled and have lived very sheltered lives. They are used to often getting what they want. All their lives, they have had resources, opportunities and advantages that people from where I was raised never had growing up. So it's only understandable that all of these things get into their heads growing up, and their egos become inflated.


I also agree with the poster (I think it was Drum&Bass, I don't recall) who pointed out that the American media has a role to play in this as well. You can't underestimate the influence of the American media. Although materialism has always seemed to be part of U.S. culture, the media has helped make things worse. I won't be surprised if it is the same in other U.S. metropolitan areas as it is here in down town Philadelphia, but all you see are people wearing extremely expensive clothes who neither acknowledge anyone who walks by them, probably won't respond even if you said "good morning" and often don't make eye contact with you, rarely ever smile, etc. I look left and right and I only see women of all ages dressed in leather boots, leather jackets, furry jackets, sunglasses and suits, etc., walking in and out of stores like H&M, Macy's, The Gap, etc., etc. So if you're not perceived as rocking the latest trends in the city, people would often disqualify you as a potential mate for superficial reasons.


Finally, to Iqqi, I'm not disputing that other women may have experienced similar things as a lot of us men here. But a lot of women out there certainly act as if they haven't, at least those whom I have met. The supply of women out there playing games and willing to exploit men and hurt their emotions for shallow reasons and selfish interests is quite amazing, in my opinion. They are aware of the power that society gives them in the initial phases of dating and they obviously use that to their advantage. I'm just so glad that it's hard for any of these shallow women to try to put the "nice guy" label upon me anymore. I think the experiences I have had, despite how negative they have been, have certainly helped shape me into a better person, because mine were honestly unique.
 

wayword

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Frank2500 said:
This really helped provide a stable atmosphere for my three older siblings and me growing up.

As I had mentioned before in one of my posts a while ago, I think a lot of the problem has to do with the fact that compared to other women in the world, American women are for the most part very spoiled and have lived very sheltered lives. They are used to often getting what they want. All their lives, they have had resources, opportunities and advantages that people from where I was raised never had growing up. So it's only understandable that all of these things get into their heads growing up, and their egos become inflated.
How many of these siblings are sisters?

And yes, there are whole bulletin boards on the evils of American Women™. When I was younger, I thought this was just from a small portion of bitter, old guys. But as I've gotten older, I realize that they were right. There are definitely consistent behaviorial cultural patterns amongst all women.
 

Frank2500

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Re:

Hi there Wayward, in response to your question, only one of my siblings is a woman and she is the first in the family. I have two other siblings who are also older than me, but male.
 

Never try to read a woman's mind. It is a scary place. Ignore her confusing signals and mixed messages. Assume she is interested in you and act accordingly.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

Interceptor

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Once you have the self control to look her in the eye and tell her to go fvck her Mother you'll have courage which supercedes
Nice one, Karma.

Basically, some women look at men as weak and inferior, incapable of handling a "real" woman.
They want to see if you really are what you appear to be.

They want to know if the confidence is real. If you are sincere in your interest in her. And they want to know just what IS your intention with her.


women have built walls and sh*t test after sh*t test to weed through the phonies, and the users and abusers.

Of course, that doesn't explain the women who are still in "love" with the pill popping, alcoholic, unemployed wife beater, and why she stays with him.
Many women have become bitter and disillusioned with men. And vice versa.

They say they want a nice guy.

But they're not attracted to the nice guy.

So they settle with the nice guy, and so begins her Oscar worthy performance.

That's why so much of the seduction community knowledge is called "counter intuitive".

One of Lance Mason's programs is even called "Everything you were tasught about women is wrong." or something like that.

Women get frustrated at he flowers, candy, cards, etc.
They don't understand WHY you do that.

"Why are you doing this for me, when you don't even know me?"

THIS is what she is thinking when you go the AFC route with a woman you "like", and you hope "she will like you back."



They want real,masculine men who aren't afraid or intimidated by them. Real men who aren't looking to please her every whim.
This doesn't mean he won't want to make her happy and satisfy her.
But the supplication, the servant attitude CANNOT be there for a REAL romantic, and healthy Male/Female relationshiop to exist and for a long time.


"Don't do what I say, DO WHAT I NEED."

This is what women are really saying.

Face it, many males are NOT doing what women NEED.
But realize this, they were NEVER TAUGHT this. And the little bit of "wisdom"
about "dating" or "relationships" is pure Sh*t. Has nothing to do with real relationship dynamics in attraction, or even less , seduction.
Males (Dr. Phil anyone?)trying to blindly teach other males what women say they want, NOT what women NEED.



This is why women will be drawn to the masculine man, no matter how unsavory. Because at least his Masculinity serves as the Compass, the Polarity a woman needs.

As a male, if you act like a female, you will draw a masculine Female.

As a male, if you are a masculine male, you will draw a Femenine female.

What is frustrating to men too is, that many women have no patience or comapsssion or understadngn that Men are lacking in Rites of Passage into well entrenched and manifested Masculine Traits.
They see a male, and they immediately distrust huim, they are on guard and ready for your "approach".
"All Men are Dogs."
"Men are only interested in one thing."

But they don't take into account that many, many, men have never been taught anything about women, except some locker room teenage bullsh*t. Even then, it's just blind hit/miss. Blind luck knowledge.
But women don't see this. They don't appreciate it. They only see a male and they may think:

"He should know what he's doing. He is a Man, isn't he?"

And they get frustrated at this.
But they don't see how society by and large has completely neglected the notion of Masculine Role Models.
So they expect, as women do, for Men to know everything.
Which we can. But Goddamn, not every guy gets this chance. But women often don't see that.
Women want to be successful at their careers, and as wives, and mothers.
Not saying that does not have it's own unique set of challenges.
But men must understand their place in life AT THE EARLIEST AGE POSSIBLE.
They must start realizing their masculinity as soon as possible.
They must start their direction in life the soonest possible.

But this not the norm. Not in modern society.

Hence, what you see aorund you is the legacy of this disaster we've inherited.
 

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Interceptor said:
women have built walls and sh*t test after sh*t test to weed through the phonies, and the users and abusers.

Of course, that doesn't explain the women who are still in "love" with the pill popping, alcoholic, unemployed wife beater, and why she stays with him.
The reason women stay with these types of men is that they provide that all powerful ride on the emotional rollercoaster. It makes them feel needed. Bloody,mentally and physically scarred, and bruised but needed nonetheless.

They "love" the attention this type of guy affords them. It's absolutely more addictive than heroin.

If there was ever such a person to give nothing but your ass and elbows it's this woman.
 

AgonyUncle

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joekerr31 said:
it didnt use to be this way. women use to stampede over each other, desperate to snap up single men before some other woman took him off the market. people STRONGLY embraced the nuclear family model - both men and women looked forward to marrying.

today, we live in more an orgy 'musical' chairs model. just keep f*cking different people and maybe at some point you'll find someone that truly moves your soul who you can settle down with and marry.

the orgy model benefits women because they aren't worried about the good males disappearing. sure, some of them might disappear into marriages for a while, but they eventually will be back on the market - just like they themselves might disappear into a marriage for a while but then be back on the market.

unfortuantely we destroyed the nuclear family and as a result are left with what we have now - a total mess. its the era of individualism and making decisions based on your 'feelings' at any given moment.

which is why women feel so empowered, because in society today there is no such thing as 'right' and 'wrong' - its all about personal liberties and freedoms. which is perfect for those women who want to use their p*ssy power to control men.

for the women who are looking for meaningful relationships, they are getting burned just like men.
I could not agree with you more.

However, this does also have its benefits for men too in many ways. As family orientated as I am, being an outgoing confident chap does help you land a fair bit of tail these days. We are not being dragged to the altar kicking and screaming like we used to.

Saying that, I dont believe its a healthy place to be for either men or women, and is bad for society in the long run. Then again, I can be a real fuddy duddy sometimes :)
 

wayword

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Frank - Ok, well there goes that theory then..lol.
Interceptor said:
women have built walls and sh*t test after sh*t test to weed through the phonies, and the users and abusers.

They say they want a nice guy.

But they're not attracted to the nice guy.

So they settle with the nice guy, and so begins her Oscar worthy performance.

That's why so much of the seduction community knowledge is called "counter intuitive".

One of Lance Mason's programs is even called "Everything you were tasught about women is wrong." or something like that.

They want real,masculine men who aren't afraid or intimidated by them. Real men who aren't looking to please her every whim.
This doesn't mean he won't want to make her happy and satisfy her.
But the supplication, the servant attitude CANNOT be there for a REAL romantic, and healthy Male/Female relationshiop to exist and for a long time.


"Don't do what I say, DO WHAT I NEED."

This is what women are really saying.


Face it, many males are NOT doing what women NEED.
But realize this, they were NEVER TAUGHT this. And the little bit of "wisdom"
about "dating" or "relationships" is pure Sh*t. Has nothing to do with real relationship dynamics in attraction, or even less , seduction.
Males (Dr. Phil anyone?)trying to blindly teach other males what women say they want, NOT what women NEED.



This is why women will be drawn to the masculine man, no matter how unsavory. Because at least his Masculinity serves as the Compass, the Polarity a woman needs.

As a male, if you act like a female, you will draw a masculine Female.

As a male, if you are a masculine male, you will draw a Femenine female.
AWESOME POST!!! :rockon:
 

Frank2500

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Re:

A great discussion indeed. It's been a rude awakening for me coming from an entirely different country and dating culture where most women for the most part prefer stable relationships with men who treat them with respect, etc. It's not only in Western countries that women have become more independent and self-sufficient with respect to their careers, etc. It's the same in most countries on the continent of Africa and its metropolitan cities.


But at least the difference with them is that for the most part, even in college, the so-called "jerk" is rarely ever the first choice and men who exude such behavior even later in life are often shown the door and not considered marriage material. Women there have always wanted the traditional, stable and happy family for themselves and their offspring, so they pick mates based on that.You come to the U.S. and it's an entirely different ball game. It's taken some major adapting and re-assesment on my part. I had to get hurt and wounded and used and exploited so many times before I eventually realized that "drama" constitutes an important part of many American lives and that with many of them, no matter how hard a man may try, they will never be fully satisified nor grateful. The most important lesson I have learned is that when it comes to women in this country, you have to be extremely firm and assertive if you're a man. Otherwise they will constantly walk over you and treat you like crap.


Looking back, it amazes me to even think that the woman at my gym who got up from her seat a long time ago while working out and proceeded to yell in my face actually thought I would let her get away with it and disrespect me that way. It again goes to show that a lot of them think they can get away with doing just anything because of how spoiled they are and how much attention and ass kissing they are used to. I have no tolerance for that.
 

Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

WestCoaster

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Frank2500 said:
But at least the difference with them is that for the most part, even in college, the so-called "jerk" is rarely ever the first choice and men who exude such behavior even later in life are often shown the door and not considered marriage material. Women there have always wanted the traditional, stable and happy family for themselves and their offspring, so they pick mates based on that.You come to the U.S. and it's an entirely different ball game.
Correct. I didn't realize this until I met a bunch of women from Norway. They looked for stable qualities in men, were totally unimpressed with American women and how they gravitated towards "bad boys" and were shocked at the U.S. divorce rate and drama queens that perpetuate U.S. society. They couldn't wait to return home. They thought a lot of U.S. guys were cool, but wouldn't touch the jerk/bad boys with a 100-foot pole.

The U.S. culture is unlike any on this planet, yet most Americans think everything that comes from this culture is right, true, and how we should live. Even the sosuave.com main site has a story called, "How to be the bad boy women love." Please, spare me.
 

Frank2500

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Re:

I hear you, WestCoaster. I wish there were more women of substance here in the U.S., but that's unfortunately not the case. I personally have no tolerance for women who are lacking in substance, so once I get a hint of such behavior, I just avoid the person. The only few women in the dating game over here who of course feel forced to be more approachable toward men are those who are divorced and have children or are single moms out of their own choosing, particularly those in their early-mid 30s. The ones in their early to late twenties are usually nothing but trouble for the most part. There are many times when I regret why I didn't make a move on a very pretty Eastern European woman at my gym who gave me so many obvious green lights last summer. Now she doesn't seem to go there anymore and even if I did see her again, because I waited so long, I wouldn't be surprised if she were to tell me "I'm taken" if I were to talk to her now.


Anyway, we all learn from our experiences. Now that I'm more familiar with the dating culture of this country and how most young American women want it to be played, I will never put myself again in a position where any of them thinks they could hurt my feelings. Unless I happen to come across one who is truly unique, sincere and genuine compared to all the knuckle heads I have met, it's certainly not worth giving myself to them like I had done in the past. The more you try to do so, the less they appreciate your efforts. It's such a shame.
 

persiangino

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Yes, some nice guys reform later on their lives when they realize all the bs they've been fed by American society all their lives once hit their 30's. In most cultures around the world, women are seen as catalysts to reinforce and reassure men's masculinity and to keep them as the dominant figure in all situations. What happens when this catalyst turns out to be a germ to keep you feminine and weak and subservient? God only knows what effects this has on the natural order of masculine and female behavior.

Females are meant to be humble, soft, to take care of their beauty and to exude natural feminine personalities. Men are supposed to be courageous, brave, strong both physically and mentally and exude confident masculine personalities. Unfortunately, women in US society have turned over the tables and reversed roles making the man rely on the women for emotional and survival support wheras the opposite has been the ideal for thousands of years. And this Sh*t is getting worse throught the years as feminist, hollywood(zionist) doctrine is permanently chipping away on the male subconscious mind and the natural way a masculine man is supposed to act.

The bad-boy in this American (I say American, because the insecure 'bad-boy' would be laughed at anywhere else in the world) setting well be literally a pimp because he is exuding independence and REBELLION, traits that attract superficial females(ie most American women) to this superficial ideal of a masculine man.
 

feelingloved

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joekerr31 nailed it. The social reconditioning against the family unit & community strength has been going on a long time. Decades.
Victory Unlimited has cut a path through the jungle, which I now seem to follow.
 

wayword

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persiangino said:
Yes, some nice guys reform later on their lives when they realize all the bs they've been fed by American society all their lives once hit their 30's. In most cultures around the world, women are seen as catalysts to reinforce and reassure men's masculinity and to keep them as the dominant figure in all situations. What happens when this catalyst turns out to be a germ to keep you feminine and weak and subservient? God only knows what effects this has on the natural order of masculine and female behavior.

Females are meant to be humble, soft, to take care of their beauty and to exude natural feminine personalities. Men are supposed to be courageous, brave, strong both physically and mentally and exude confident masculine personalities. Unfortunately, women in US society have turned over the tables and reversed roles making the man rely on the women for emotional and survival support wheras the opposite has been the ideal for thousands of years. And this Sh*t is getting worse throught the years as feminist, hollywood(zionist) doctrine is permanently chipping away on the male subconscious mind and the natural way a masculine man is supposed to act.
SO TRUE. I even just had a discussion with a friend about this. It has become so obvious now that people all over are recognizing the same problem.

This Marxist-feminism has dealt a double-whammy to men. One is by warping women at large and society into misandrists that corrode our outer game. The other is by creating female-dominated households that weaken our inner game from childhood.

The tricky part is that a lot of this is subtle and subliminal manipulation that takes a looongg time to recognize (see Wyldfire tactics). It's always harder to fight a stealthy, sneaky enemy. Hence, many guys don't wake up until their 30s, after already wasting decades of their lives. You even notice that on these boards. Most of the feminist manginas here are pretty young and inexperienced, still. While there are veerrry few (if any) amongst any of the mature men (who have all learned their lessons and woken up).
 

Don Juanabbe

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Yes - smart former AFCs become DJs/PUAs later in life, but first generally go through a bitter stage. I went through a two year bitterness stage.

Part of the problem is that women have become more masculine since the feminazi movement, so men have to act even more masculine, like, uber-masculine.
 

d9930380

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Not all. Some get married ;-)

However.. enough of all the socio-dynamics. Some guys take a while to grow up especially if they come from stable families where they aren't forced to grow up earlier.

Also there's no point in complaining, if you missed out on ****ing alot when you where younger you can't blame women. It was probably your fault, you may have been saying/thinking you wanted a stable long term relationship and therefore not succeeding because THEY didn't or you might have been simply to shy to have taken the lead. Either way it was your fault because in your early twenties neither is the approach - you shouldn't look to get married that young. In your late tweenties and early 30s there are plenty of desirable women who are looking to settle down so if that's what you want then it should be no problem. If you never wanted that then it's time to wise up and accept it, and simply start dating lots until you ARE ready to settle, and not blame women for what you've missed but instead live your 30s like you should have done your 20s.

Guys have it good, we can settle down at 40 with a girl 10 years younger than us and it's no big deal, if a women hasn't by the age of 40 then she will never have kids and probably never have a husband. (although sex is almost always easier for a woman to get).
 
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