Do Most Former Nice Guys Become Don Juans/PUAs Later in Their Lives? (Late 20s-30s)

[Frank2500]

I'm a bit curious about this. Could it be that most former "nice guys" (as labeled primarily by superficial women) usually tend to transform into Don Juan/PUA types much later in their lives late 20s and early 30s? I would like to use myself as an example. A lot of you here are familiar with my stories of how much I used to struggle during my undergraduate years in college to get a date and a girlfriend-being constantly seen as "too much into the books/education," "too nice," getting the "I have a boyfriend line" a bit too many times than other guys, being stood up and being turned down for possible dates at the last minute by women who had previously given me their phone numbers, etc. The list is so exhaustive in terms of my negative experiences.


Now, at 29 and almost in my 30s, I suddenly find myself not basing the completeness and fullness of my life on whether or not I have a girlfriend, not caring whether or not a woman on the street who thinks she's an HB and is accustomed to getting a lot of attention makes eye contact with me, (in fact, from time to time I just even ignore them and they would look at me surprised while I walk past them, not even acknowledging their presence) not seeking their approval, etc. Ironically, a lot of the women I have met in the past, the ones who caused me so much pain during my late teens to early and mid-twenties are probably now saying they "want a good guy to settle down with," after having messed around and had their fun for as much as possible. It seems to be a vicious cycle that just keeps on going round and round. They complain that the supply of jerks keeps on increasing while that of the so-called "nice guys" continues to shrink, whereas back in the day, they never gave such men a chance. I think American women have such an unfair double standard when it comes to dating and the whole thing is so imbalanced.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

It's an option. They could:

1. Remain nice guys in the hopes that they meet someone who not only appreciates their character but also will not get bored and eventually end the relationship.
2. Become bitter and find various excuses why women can't be trusted and there's no such thing as a long lasting relationship.
3. Realize that their character better defines themselves and go against the norm and live a balanced and fulfilled life by their own merits and not by who they date.

The fact is that it isn't determined by age, these choices are always available.

 

[joekerr31]

I think American women have such an unfair double standard when it comes to dating and the whole thing is so imbalanced.

it didnt use to be this way. women use to stampede over each other, desperate to snap up single men before some other woman took him off the market. people STRONGLY embraced the nuclear family model - both men and women looked forward to marrying.

today, we live in more an orgy 'musical' chairs model. just keep f*cking different people and maybe at some point you'll find someone that truly moves your soul who you can settle down with and marry.

the orgy model benefits women because they aren't worried about the good males disappearing. sure, some of them might disappear into marriages for a while, but they eventually will be back on the market - just like they themselves might disappear into a marriage for a while but then be back on the market.

unfortuantely we destroyed the nuclear family and as a result are left with what we have now - a total mess. its the era of individualism and making decisions based on your 'feelings' at any given moment.

which is why women feel so empowered, because in society today there is no such thing as 'right' and 'wrong' - its all about personal liberties and freedoms. which is perfect for those women who want to use their p*ssy power to control men.

for the women who are looking for meaningful relationships, they are getting burned just like men.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...for the women who are looking for meaningful relationships, they are getting burned just like men.

And this in itself causes most of the game playing and sh1t tests that women give. It's typically because she was taken advantage of by some guy. This is a major reason why becoming the :nono: "Rebound Guy" is seldom worth the effort. Why not wait until she gets the sins of her ex out of her system instead of having them applied to you?

 

[Frank2500]

Re:

You guys raise some important points. It just seems to me as if in American society, women think they have the right to burn men and hurt their own feelings and exploit, dump and use them at will with absolutely no remorse..and men treated that way have no right to complain. But if a man did such a thing to a woman, she will raise her voice all over the entire country. It's not fair, but that's the way life is. It isn't fair nor just to everyone.

 

[Bible_Belt]

It's typically because she was taken advantage of by some guy.

And I would guess that all of us here have found sosuave after of being screwed over by women. Do nice guys become PUAs? Yes, after they get their heart stomped on enough to grow out of the nice guy persona.

 

[KarmaSutra]

It's typically because she was taken advantage of by some guy.

And I would guess that all of us here have found sosuave after of being screwed over by women. Do nice guys become PUAs? Yes, after they get their heart stomped on enough to grow out of the nice guy persona.

Bible Thumper is absolutely right. I didn't come here until I got rid of the ex. Now I can hold my own against any woman, regardless of who she believes herself to be.

I also think 'Cisco and Joekerr make very good arguments. I'm living testament that a 30-something can remold his life. It only takes brains and balls.

 

[joekerr31]

But if a man did such a thing to a woman, she will raise her voice all over the entire country. It's not fair, but that's the way life is. It isn't fair nor just to everyone.

correct. and that's life.

if you think all this sh*t is unfair, wait until one day when you wake up and can no longer get a boner, or find out you have cancer, etc.

the older i get the more i realize i'm just lucky to still be here.

 

[eyedogg]

Brothers,

I agree with Karma - I myself went from married young/AFC - just got divorced and I am working on re-making myself. This site and specifically the mature man section and it caretakers (you know who you are) have helped tremendously.

 

[Interceptor]

Good to see , Dog Brother.

What usually happens is we see failure in our lives and with women.
We realize, due to the blessings of reason and intellect, that we are doing does not bring us the results we WANT. Ouor lives didn';t turn out the way we thought it would, and now we're ready to make a change.

The realization, and Enlightenment then brings you to places like SS as a pool of knowledge to help you find yourself and rebuild that which you have lost. And that which you really have never known depely enough.

It's a natural process of growth. Acceptance. Taking responsibility.

Accepting your role as a Man.

understanding your Masculine SELF.

There is no shame in making mistakes
But it is cowardly to not accept responsibily and blindly reject change.

Everyone benefits from your growth.


masculine role models are few and far between. Thus, we must have courage and mentor ourselves, and lead ourselves in to the enlightenment.

 

[Frank2500]

Re: You Guys Have Been Great on This Site

You guys have really been great on this site. I stumbled across this site through a random online search about dating and relationships. At that time, I was feeling more down than could be expressed in words. I was trying to recover from oneitis that I developed for a 35 year old woman at my gym. She took advantage of my feelings and of course, pierced into my heart like a sword. My heart was bleeding and I probably wouldn't have recovered well enough had I not found this site, began my first post about that negative experience and received your feedback and comments. Reading other people's posts and experiences has also helped me grow significantly, so I want to say thanks to you guys.


Coming from a different culture, I guess the thing that amazed me the most about American women is just how cold and insensitive they can be when it comes to dating. When they mean to hurt you, they will cut you with absolutely no regrets or remorse. I remember the first time I saw that 35 year old woman bring her boyfriend to the gym. They were both extremely well dressed and she was more dressed up than I had ever seen her before. Of course, she wanted me to notice them and to feel even more hurt. But I ignored them both and still ignore them to this day...and have shown them that I have moved on. She probably thought that I won't be able to stay this long without trying to contact her given the AFC behavior I used to manifest in her presence in the past without even being aware of it. Too many unnecessary compliments, too much flattery, trying to be agreeable with her in every sense, watching what I say in order not to hurt her feelings, etc.



Lifting weights and improving my physical build might have also played a role in helping me further develop my confidence and to be seen in a different light by most of the shallow women who under normal circumstances would never have given me a chance.


So I just want to say thanks again to you guys. These days, and primarily with the help of this site, I have developed two personal philosophies. If I meet a woman and she gives me her number, I never call her again if she doesn't return my call after I leave a message. At 29, I'm a bit too old to be running after women like a man in his early 30s. Also, if a woman I'm seeing isn't showing me the same interest level and I can discern that through non-verbal communication, such as if I'm primarily the only one who tries to keep in touch with her or get a hold of her so that we could get together again, I forget about her immediately once I get those hints. I deserve a lot better and I know for sure that she won't respect me if I put her in a position of power that she definitely doesn't deserve.



It's so interesting to be in a position now where a lot of these women who are so used to getting attention wonder why you a particular man seem not to be chasing after them like everyone else. They wonder why you're not talking to them and start assuming that you're arrogant to pacify their inflated egos.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo Troops.

This is something I posted in another thread once before, but I think it applies here as well. As a former nice guy, as a former recovering man once blinded by the matrix, and NOW a determined "soldier", I'll share this with you guys:


In my life, I can honestly say that I feel like I’ve been Born Again TWICE.
The first time was spiritual. The second time was carnal.

The spiritual rebirth was an awakening. It was happy, joyful, and freeing. It was an enlightenment that made me see that THIS life was not the end-all and be-all. It inspired me to recognize and strive for the ideal.

But this carnal rebirth that I experienced when I found this site was also an awakening.. But so far, it has NOT been happy or joyful---but it HAS been freeing. This rebirth has made me see that experiencing the IDEAL is far more rare than I ever thought it would be.

For me, because of my core personality (nice, decent, caring, giving), this rebirth has been like telling a child who’d really rather be out playing that he can’t go out to play because there’s a war going on!

This sight, along with my own life experiences, writings, and research, have MADE me realize that there really is a WAR between the sexes (in a sense). I do recognize that WOMEN are NOT the enemy, rather it is their mindsets and attitudes.

The strategies and techniques I implement during our skirmishes are designed to dissuade, disarm, deactivate the things that the women that I meet have accepted as truth. My mission is to either enlighten them by bringing them over to MY side, or to eliminate them from my life.

This site has helped to further my intensive training physically, mentally, and behaviorally (is this a word?? lol). This site has broken the natural ways to be a maculine man down to a science. And knowing the WHYs and HOWs to things always help my analytical mind grasp and ACCEPT truths better.

This site has given me the names and definitions of weapons to use in my warfare (see----Neg Hits, C & F, Ganji Games, Push and Pull, etc.)

This site has given me the techniques and strategies to use to potentially outsmart my enemy at every turn (see---The SY-RY Technique, Plate Spinning, DHV, AMOGing, etc.).

I am not a natural DJ. My successes before coming here have been random or unexplained. I enlisted here because I was on a mission to make my STRIKES at getting women more SURGICAL. I wanted to stop getting LUCKY and start getting GOOD at this.

And the changes in me that have occurred since I joined the Sosuave Army have been absolutely radical!

I have an outer toughness that has gradually become an inner toughness that I can now begin to count on during tough times. My AFC behavior for the most part has been eliminated.

But on the inside, there are times when I will still FEEL like an AFC. So my main focus these days is on internalizing what I have learned until I no longer FEEL that twinge of hesitation about my actions. So I can no longer FEEL that jealousy that comes from eating my heart out over a babe I can’t get. So I can no longer FEEL that disappointment and sense of loss when a woman leaves my life------because I now KNOW comes mostly from me fighting against the "ghosts" of my own thrice-killed, scarcity mentality.

So I can no longer FEEL like I NEED a woman, but rather be satisfied and happy in my life with or without one.

So far, I have the act and the behavior (the war AWAY) under TOTAL control. But my emotional and mental states (the war AT HOME) are still very much embattled from time to time.

But I will stay here...serving in THIS army until I win both the war AWAY, and the war AT HOME-----with a BRUTAL finality.



Yes, I will stay here…until VICTORY...is mine!!!!






Peace…one day.

 

[WestCoaster]

Good post Victory, as always.

I'd say most men who are nice guys and/or AFC's (I'd consider myself a nice guy) stay that way unless something odd happens. My odd happening was a friend tipping me off to this website when I was getting sh-t on by a woman a few years ago. My first readings of the articles on sosuave.com felt like something completely different -- a lifetime of AFC programming is tough to overcome. It literally felt like a foreign language. But once I started practicing the philosophies, I improved -- in dating and love as well as personal life. I'm certainly no master DJ, but I'm not an AFC anymore.

But to answer the initial question: One, I think nice guys and/or AFCs just stay the same because they don't have enough information to change, most of the reading material out there is John Gray, Dr. Phil, or angry women bashing men; two, change is difficult, especially personal change, so I don't think many men change; three, married AFCs usually stay AFC even if it's not serving them well.

Change is difficult, most people keep their same traits.

 

[Mr.Positive]

unfortuantely we destroyed the nuclear family and as a result are left with what we have now - a total mess. its the era of individualism and making decisions based on your 'feelings' at any given moment..

On a happy note Sunshine..

As men, this also affords us, really, the ultimate freedom. We can do whatever we want, date whom ever, pursue our own individual goals, without having society think differently about it. There is less pressure on us men too.

What it is is what it is. What we, as individuals, need to be concerned about is that we make the best choice available (if we want a nuclear family) out of the litter. That's why this site is so helpful.

So, in answer to the OP's question, nice guys change given the environment. If a nice guy gets grabbed up by a women and gets married, as long as he's happily married, he will stay the same nice AFC. It's not until he get's burned, that he starts to wake up and realize what's really going on.

Yeah, that's more apt to happen later in a man's life, if he shacks up with low quality women.

 

[Drum&Bass]

AFC's and the so called NICE GUYS are not natural..They are manufactured through the media..Nice guys are manufactured so they can have one purpose in life, and that is to have a woman or be in a relationship..

Women who live recklessly and spontaneously are also manufactured because these are the types of women who like to spend money. Notice how most posts condemn AMERICAN women, that's because america is a country that exists for money.
Nice guys want to spend money on the nice house, 2 cars, 2.5 kids, cute dog and the white picket fence. Nice guy's wives want the diamond ring, the memorable, monumental wedding, the closet full of clothes etc..(THE AMERICAN DREAM)

This so called MATRIX that everyone speaks of is nothing more than media influence to breed people who will spend money. You are born into a country that develops your mind and influences your behavior through media, children and young adults are easily impressionable. Its a dirty tactic the country uses against working parents (who are chasing the American Dream) who only know how to raise their kids through video games and Television. As you get older you tend to not care so much about trivial things and that is why you made this post.

Lately I'm seeing a disturbing occurrence of older people now being sucked back into the matrix..marketing companies are now targeting older people and capitalizing on their desire to become part of the "younger, accepted" spotlight.

if you think all this sh*t is unfair, wait until one day when you wake up and can no longer get a boner, or find out you have cancer, etc.

the older i get the more i realize i'm just lucky to still be here.

ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!! SIMPLE, HUMBLE and HONEST. Once you learn all the little social mechanisms and driving factors of human nature..in the end..count your blessings that your in good health and alive (for now).

 

[Luthor Rex]

it didnt use to be this way. women use to stampede over each other, desperate to snap up single men before some other woman took him off the market. people STRONGLY embraced the nuclear family model - both men and women looked forward to marrying.

today, we live in more an orgy 'musical' chairs model. just keep f*cking different people and maybe at some point you'll find someone that truly moves your soul who you can settle down with and marry.

the orgy model benefits women because they aren't worried about the good males disappearing. sure, some of them might disappear into marriages for a while, but they eventually will be back on the market - just like they themselves might disappear into a marriage for a while but then be back on the market.

unfortuantely we destroyed the nuclear family and as a result are left with what we have now - a total mess. its the era of individualism and making decisions based on your 'feelings' at any given moment.

which is why women feel so empowered, because in society today there is no such thing as 'right' and 'wrong' - its all about personal liberties and freedoms. which is perfect for those women who want to use their p*ssy power to control men.

for the women who are looking for meaningful relationships, they are getting burned just like men.

This is such a wonderful summation of everything... wonder why the mainstream hasn't picked up on something so simple.

 

[jophil28]

It's funny, when I was younger up until I was 21, I was a DJ completely the way this site describes it.

Then something happened, I fell in love with a girl and after 18 months she broke my heart. I never fully recovered. The last 8 months of frequenting this site have brought me back from the afc dead and I'm so close to what I used to be I can taste it. Except this time, I'll be better.

This is MY story too except that I fell in "love" and got broken-hearted at the age of 49. Previously, I was a "use 'em and flick'em kind of guy" but I fell hard for a woman two years ago and started to try to 'please her' -I shifted my natural MO from, "I could not give a f**k" into, "how can I please and impress her today ?" I was endlessly in an 'audition' to show her how great of a guy I was. What a sorry, sad and lost 'man' I was.
Anyways, long story short, she LJBF me after six months of drama and mindfvcking me AND cheating and rubbing it in my face ,and then toyed with me for another four months,
It still hurts brothers, and I have not seen or heard from her for exactly one year. I have a new squeeze and am spinning two other plates( thanks RT)

THe GRAND mistake I made was in letting the "in love" woman act with gross disrespect after only a month of being with her.. I bit my tongue - I said nothing. I had her up on a pedestal ... Why ? Because I did not want to rock the boat. Deep down, I believed that to complain was unmanly and that i needed to shut up to keep her - then she treated me WORSE. The more "understanding " i was, the worse she behaved. ( Of course I now know that she has BPD and a few other loonie problems) but if I had put my foot down at the first sign of disrespect she may have straightened up or just disappeared - either way I would have won.

NEVER AGAIN win I tolerate even ONE experience of disrespect from a woman. J LO included !
I learned the hard way that beautiful women have so many options that they BELIEVE that they are entitled to act like baitches - and they do UNTIL you stop them.

Fast forward to now . Tonight I have a dance date with a Russkie 25 year old HB9 who is showing high IL . I danced with her last night and poured on the C/F stuff about her dancing clumsiness and how I need to teach her to dance better for a lot of $$$ . SHe replied that she is not rich ( I rolled my eyes ) but said that she wants to "take me out " . I replied that I do not usually date "teenagers" and she giggled and gave me the 'doggy bowl eyes' and so on...
Two years ago I would NEVER have even imagined that she (25 and HOT) and I could have any connection . Why? I do not know. But I do know that most of my imagined limitations are self created and self applied .

This site is liberating - it is never too late ,men

Jophil.

 

[iqqi]

You guys raise some important points. It just seems to me as if in American society, women think they have the right to burn men and hurt their own feelings and exploit, dump and use them at will with absolutely no remorse..and men treated that way have no right to complain. But if a man did such a thing to a woman, she will raise her voice all over the entire country. It's not fair, but that's the way life is. It isn't fair nor just to everyone.

hey frank.

One thing I just don't get is why some of the men on this site don't realize that women feel this way too. Yes, women get exploited and used by men all the time. Most women would actually find it hard to believe that men feel this way sometimes.

Alot of women's sh!t tests are because they assume a man is just trying to use her, or isnt really interested in her. This is a concept that many men don't grasp - and I cannot understand why not! It is very simple.

and when they do get used and abused, they do exactly what you described as "raising her voice all over the country" - kind of what happens here on this board by men. and then they get bitter, and hurtful, and more cold in their sh!t tests... like some men!

the first two post replies under your OP were right on as well.

 

[ketostix]

OK women use nice guys and guys niceness and sincere interest and love to gratify their ego. This is wrong obviously but that's how women are.

On a related but seperate topic, women do not seem to like nice guys if they can discern that the guy is nice and sincere. I'm not sure how best to explain this phenomena but the most aggravating thing is to hear women say, "Why aren't there any nice guys?" When we all know they meet plenty of them and grind them into dust. But it's not surprising to hear women say such things, afterall 99% of what women say is nonsense.

Bottom line: exerpt form a prior post that follows: "but if I had put my foot down at the first sign of disrespect she may have straightened up or just disappeared - either way I would have won."

THe GRAND mistake I made was in letting the "in love" woman act with gross disrespect after only a month of being with her.. I bit my tongue - I said nothing. I had her up on a pedestal ... Why ? Because I did not want to rock the boat. Deep down, I believed that to complain was unmanly and that i needed to shut up to keep her - then she treated me WORSE. The more "understanding " i was, the worse she behaved. ( Of course I now know that she has BPD and a few other loonie problems) but if I had put my foot down at the first sign of disrespect she may have straightened up or just disappeared - either way I would have won.

 

[KarmaSutra]

Alot of women's sh!t tests are because they assume a man is just trying to use her, or isnt really interested in her. This is a concept that many men don't grasp - and I cannot understand why not! It is very simple.

This guy is right, on a subjective level. Women need to test guys to weed out those with whom she won't be compatible or ones she can roll over. Once you have the self control to look her in the eye and tell her to go fvck her Mother you'll have courage which supercedes. If you can't you'll always remain a subjugate.

Just like iqqi perpetrating this fraud that HE is a she.