Debate: Why "the guy should pay" is an outdated "rule"

[TillTheEndOfTime]

"The guy should pay" answer when asking who pays for the first/second/third/etc date is without backing.

My stance is that the first few dates should go 50/50.

First of all, from my experience, who pays does not matter (whether you pay all or go 50/50). Hell, I've had girls offering to pay for me. I declined and went 50/50. I stand true to my beliefs, even if they are not in my favour.

Unless she is really shallow, or a gold digger, then not paying for her a$$ all the time should not turn her off. If it does, you're better off without her because she is one of those names mentioned.

The following is why the rule about the guy paying first is archaic and does not make sense in modern times:

1) The whole reason this idea of the man paying first EVER came about was because DECADES ago when this "rule" first appeared, how many women were in the workforce? Very few. Not even REMOTELY as much as today. If a girl does not work, THEN HOW THE FUVK IS SHE SUPPOSED TO PAY? OF COURSE the guy had to pay back then! Hence the "rule".

Times have CHANGED! Get with them! There are so many women in the workforce these days. It's NOT the same situation as DECADES before when this rule first went around.

These are FACTS and cannot be denied. I challenge anyone to provide contradictory facts to these statements.

2) Ok, so you try to outsmart me and go, AH HA! "The person who asks should pay! Now I'm being gender neutral TillTheEndOfTime, what do you say to that!?"

I say one thing. BULLSH1T. While times have caused significant changes in the workforce, the basic masculine and feminin traits (for the most part barring negative impact from feminism) have not changed very much. This is nature at work. It will prove fruitless in the end to try to change nature. Ok so what's my point you say?

Well one part of being a man and masculine, is that WE go AFTER the women. When a guy and girl meet, it is almost always the guy who initiated the contact, with the girl providing the buy signals. Again this is fact. Go take a survey of 100 couples and see out of those 100 couples, who made the first significant move. Probably about 80% of the time it is the guy. While I'm not confident in the specific number, I am sure a large majority rests in the man initiating significant contact. Once again, I challenge anyone to provide facts to the contrary. I would be quite shocked to see stats of women approaching men more than men approaching women (WH0RES DON'T COUNT!).

With that said, the argument of "the one who asks should pay" is NOT gender neutral.

This is just a sneaky, coniving way to providing a gender BIASED argument in the form of a "gender neutral" argument. For example, say a guy wants to get a date. If he wants to get a date, then he has to approach a women (because the chances of the woman approaching him are slim to none, even if she does like him). And according to the logic of the argument "the one who asks pays", if he approaches, he HAS to pay. Automatically. It's a "rule". Since most guys are the ones who approach by nature, the most guys have to pay. Automatically. It's a "rule".


I'm fine with you arguing against this if you disagree. However, if you disagree, provide FACTS contradicting what I said in statment 1 and 2.

I'm sorry, statements like "you'll look cheap if you don't pay" etc are outdated, socially conditioned responses (i.e, they are not based on sound reasoning, they are just based on something you heard when you grew up and came to accept as truth). They are NOT arguments with facts to the contrary of what I said. They hold no weight. Therefore, they are not acceptable for debate.

 

[DrDope]

Your compelling social commentary and persuasive arguments about outdated gender roles are very interesting. But, be that as it may, if you ask a girl out and then when the check comes you ask her to pony up for what she ate, you are going to look like a loser.

And you shouldn't be spending that much on early dates anyway, so you shouldn't have to be sweating if you have to lay out a few bucks.

 

[TillTheEndOfTime]

Originally posted by DrDope
Your compelling social commentary and persuasive arguments about outdated gender roles are very interesting. But, be that as it may, if you ask a girl out and then when the check comes you ask her to pony up for what she ate, you are going to look like a loser.

Like I mentioned in my initial post, fears such as these are socially conditioned. See what I wrote about "you'll look cheap if you don't pay".

I can spin that around on you. Why doesn't SHE feel like a loser for expecting you to pay her way 100%?

Again, social conditioning.

Can you provide a gender NEUTRAL argument explaining yourself. I predict this will be very hard.


Edit - As an interesting aside, consider the social conditioning many of us are familar with --- not approaching/chatting with strangers. Most of us had to overcome this barrier at one point in our lives. Especially if you wanted to date a girl. Does this "rule" exist for a valid, logical purpose?

Well maybe when you were a kid. You were told not to approach strangers for obvious reasons such as being kidnapped. Well you're 25 now and that threat is pretty much gone. Why are you still afraid? That social conditioning is OUTDATED. This touches on my philosophy.

 

[assius]

Women are too used to us paying for dinner and dates...its too late to change that I think lol. We are stuck.

 

[TillTheEndOfTime]

Originally posted by assius
Women are too used to us paying for dinner and dates...its too late to change that I think lol. We are stuck.

Hahaha

While this does not really counter what I said, it is true in some cases I must admit! :crackup:

 

[R1cK]

I am currently dating this one girl that does pay for her share of things when we go out. Lets say we go to the movies she will pay for the tickets and then I will treat dinner. If I end up going with someoneout that expects me to pay for everyting every time we go out , then that person is waisting my time. I also have a female friends that like to pay for her own stuff and hates it when the guys insist of paying for everything. It really more depends on the girl and if you let them get away with it. If ou are always paying for everything then the woman has no real reason to object because she is getting free food, gift and so on. Now if you ask a girl to put in her share for the date and get offended then people we have a gold digger. All I am saying if you feel strongly that your date should pay for part of the date then bring it up and if not well I hope you like giving your money away.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Guys, why waste effort on women who would judge you on whether of not you stuff her pie hole (with food). Personally, I stay away from dinner dates with any woman I haven't decided to keep around.

We can do coffee, we can do bowling, we can do an arcade or just hang out at the mall and window shop. But I'll be d@mned if I'd play the AFC role by playing into old societal rules. Make your own rules and stand out from the rest. This does mean that you are creating and interesting enough not to depend on the boring dinner and a movie type dates.

 

[DrDope]

It's not that your points aren't well thought through and logical--they are. It's just that reality isn't well thought through and logical.

Some girls might be cool when you insist they pay. Most people will think that you are a cheapskate (not a good thing to be).

Should it be that way? No.

Is it that way? Yes.

You can argue the merits of it forever. It won't change reality.

It's like arguing for world peace. Yes, there should always be peace but there never will be.

 

[whistler]

If I ask girl to dinner, I expect to pay.

But I also expect a girl to offer to pay half of the bill (or her share) if she has a reasonable opportunity to do so. It's a sign of respect. At that point, whether or not she actually ends up paying is a moot issue.


If you have a relationship going, then both people should make an effort to keep it roughly 50/50.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Trust me, as a guy you will be paying for sex in one way or another for the rest of your life. Get used to it.

 

[whistler]

Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
Trust me, as a guy you will be paying for sex in one way or another for the rest of your life. Get used to it.

Funny. I just f*cked a girl and she bought me lunch.


(There's truth there though.)

 

[Jake-inator]

Trust me, as a guy you will be paying for sex in one way or another for the rest of your life. Get used to it.

This is the kind of attitude that brought you to this forum.
You're being led on a leash. Girl is too shallow to pay, and what do you do?
Of course... you pay up, even though deep down you know this isn't the girl for you.
Face it you're too much of a puzzy to say no to a ho.
The ho knows she can get whatever she wants from you, because to her she's selling sex. She knows you're weak and uses your weakness to get free food and other gifts.
Once she gets enough of you pathetic behaviour, and decides that even these gifts aren't enough to keep her from puking at the sight of you, she leaves you.

Yes there are shallow / gold-digging women who expect you to pay for them, but there are also sincere girls who are willing to split it 50/50 or even pay for you. They're rare, especially in Nevada, but if you ever meet one you'll know what i'm talking about.

If a girl cares more about getting her dinner paid than being with you... she's a h0. Basically you're paying for sex and since you don't have a verbal agreement she doesn't have to deliver.
Also why would you want sex more than a girl?!? Last time i checked, i couldn't have multiple orgasms.

Just goes to show you how little will power men have these days. Some of us will do anything for some puzzy.

If you want to pay for sex save yourself the money, and get a h00ker.


Good tip about making her feel like the cheap loser... i'll be sure to try it out sometime a girl asks me to pay.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Oh, you'll be paying for that too,..

Proactively or reactively it all comes out of the same wallet eventually.

And for the record I heartily agree with FRANCISCO. Any money spent on food is a waste of time. Most women wont even think of knocking it out with you after that big meal. It's challenge enough to get her down with it on an empty stomach and fresh breath, why hamstring your efforts by paying for her to fill up her gut prior to making your move? No woman wants to have sex on a full stomach and self-conscious of her breath.

Got this from Tom Lyekis, but it's an excellent tactic: Prior to going out on a dinner date, have a light meal yourself, then when you get to the date order a salad and say something like "I'm in training and I don't want to blow my diet now." The idea is that no woman is going to order more food than her date in order to not appear as a pig. You'll spend less and you can gauge interest levels from this too; if she goes and orders a big meal anyway, she's not on the date because she thinks she'll end up in bed with you.

Better yet, meet her for drinks later in the evening instead because you'll "be working late on something" but will tear yourself away then because you think she's special enough to do so. Any money spent on food is money that should go to alcohol anyway.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Originally posted by DrDope
It's not that your points aren't well thought through and logical--they are. It's just that reality isn't well thought through and logical.

Some girls might be cool when you insist they pay. Most people will think that you are a cheapskate (not a good thing to be).

Should it be that way? No.

Is it that way? Yes.

You can argue the merits of it forever. It won't change reality.

It's like arguing for world peace. Yes, there should always be peace but there never will be.

You know that's a scary reality if you are regulated to pay for dates just because you are a guy. It's even worse that some may feel that the only way to impress them is to buy them things. It's even worse that you feel that you would need to insist that they pay...

It's as frustrating for us guys who don't need to do those things as it is for those who feel that they need to. You guys need to ask yourselves as often as you guys buy dinner and the like for women, how many times are you actually successful with that woman? How often does it actually work for you? At best I'm betting that you guys just get a second or third date with her to buy her dinner again! Then after it all she stops returning your calls. Why? Because she's found someone else to buy her dinner. BUYING DINNER FOR A WOMAN TAKES NO SKILLS WHAT SO EVER!!!

So why depend on it? Why succumb to it? Blaming it on society is a cop out. If you believed that society was right, you wouldn't be in this forum learning the skills to become a DJ. You'd choose to stick with being a "nice guy," an AFC, someone whose actions are based only on what society mandates.

If that's what you want or believe that it's the best you can do, fine. But there's proof out there that it doesn't need to be that way.

 

[Jake-inator]

I thought there was something in the DJ Bible about making YOUR OWN REALITY... not following what other chumps say is the right thing to do....

Any money spent on food is money that should go to alcohol anyway.

Hehe now that's something i agree with. You'll get a hell of a lot further with $40 dollars worth of rum/vodka than with sum lame dinner.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
Oh, you'll be paying for that too,..

Proactively or reactively it all comes out of the same wallet eventually.

And for the record I heartily agree with FRANCISCO. Any money spent on food is a waste of time. Most women wont even think of knocking it out with you after that big meal. It's challenge enough to get her down with it on an empty stomach and fresh breath, why hamstring your efforts by paying for her to fill up her gut prior to making your move? No woman wants to have sex on a full stomach and self-conscious of her breath.

Got this from Tom Lyekis, but it's an excellent tactic: Prior to going out on a dinner date, have a light meal yourself, then when you get to the date order a salad and say something like "I'm in training and I don't want to blow my diet now." The idea is that no woman is going to order more food than her date in order to not appear as a pig. You'll spend less and you can gauge interest levels from this too; if she goes and orders a big meal anyway, she's not on the date because she thinks she'll end up in bed with you.

Better yet, meet her for drinks later in the evening instead because you'll "be working late on something" but will tear yourself away then because you think she's special enough to do so. Any money spent on food is money that should go to alcohol anyway.

These are great tips! The problem is that a guy would need to be able to entertain the woman in other ways. Dinner and a movie takes no effort and is as cliché as buying a woman roses. ANYONE CAN DO IT. Unfortunately, dinner and a movie may be all that some guys can offer.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Alright JAKE since you're 20 I'll cut you some slack, because I once thought as you do. Women and men are both opportunists, we simply capitalize on our opportunities with different methods. All women to a greater or lesser degree are gold-diggers, and rightfully so. They are, like men, looking for the best opportunity to satisfy an impulse. Some are overt about it, some are covert about it depending on their ability to attract it, but they are all competing over the same resource.

50/50? No man, it all amounts to exchange eventually. In the same manner women can be covert or overt in their opportunism, men can do the same in their own. You can be overt and hire a prostitute or you can be covert and play the game well enough to get a discount, but it's all negotiation in the end.

Men and women find each other acceptable for intimacy because each meets a certain criteria for their attraction. Women base these conditions on a man's ability to provide security, men base their own on physical attraction and sexual availability. It's simple supply & demand economics.

 

[DrDope]

Francisco,

I totally agree with you about not buying dinner. It's something I rarely do and never do early in the dating process. I keep everything pretty low dollar to begin with even though I am a fairly big earner.

My only point is that if you're on a first date with a girl that you initiated, you roll into an ice cream stand for an ice cream cone, and you stand there tapping your foot waiting for the chick to pay for her own ice cream cone, you are going to look very lame.

Sure she should offer to pay. Sure, if she expects you to pay she's a b1tch. But reality is reality. If you ask someone out and insist that they pay then you will look cheap because you ARE CHEAP.

The solution is to avoid anything where the amount of money spent is material. It does cost money to bump around but you can keep costs low. I'm all for making sure women are putting in their fair share and that they are paying an equitable portion.

But the original post in this thread is long on sociological theory and short on the reality of the world. That's all I meant. We actually agree on 99% of everything.

 

[Jake-inator]

I totally agree that everyone is an opportunist and that we try to capitalize. I'm just advocating haggling and getting a good deal on your purchase.

Ex.
A girl that will give more than take, is a better deal than some gold-digger.

I'm just saying that we should have a little more will power to choose what it is that we want instead of constantly settling becuase society tells us to.
We should stop living in this feminist reality and embrace our own set of ideals on what it is that WE desire... BESIDES SEX.

If all you want from life is sex, you're not free.
Our desire for sex is i think our greatest weakeness that has been exploited.
Just look around you, everything for guys has hot women in bikinis sponsoring it...
What do these women have to do with the product?? Absolutely nothing.

This same tactic is used by women to get whatever they want from us.

 

[whistler]

Simple common sense dictates that if you take the initiative and invite someone to do something, you should be prepared to pay. If you both come up with the idea together, you should be prepared to pay equally.

This works in every situation. And it should be applied to women as well. Don't make exceptions.