Debate: Global Warming

[John_Galt]

In the early 70s they also believed it was good to smoke, but that has been refuted by studies.

Science changes everyday my friend. Studies are constantly poring out saying the complete opposite of the last one. We need to wait for the REAL PROOF to start poring out. And until then, it's just speculations.

 

[Call_Me_Daddy]

That isn't fair. If you're looking for stability than you're screwing with the results. The Earth is not stable, and usually one poll has more of an impact. The earths degree of rotation changes, and each poll isn't favored equally. The last ice age we had was mainly a north pole ice age. The advances of glaciers were a Northern Hemisphere issue, but not a big deal in the Southern hemisphere.

The reason Antarctica is used is because its very stable. That's a GOOD thing.

Think of Antarctica like a crime scene. And just like any other crime scene, you need it to be unchanging. You don't want parts of the crime scene to suddenly melt away (glaciers do this) and then lose a huge chunk of the evidence. Otherwise, you will get some pretty bad measurements and evidence from the scene.

Another good thing about it is that its very isolated. Far away fom civilization, and practically no animals (except a few penguins) live there, just as any other crime scene. You don't want people moivng in and out removing evidence or depositing their own. This would mess up the entire analysis and it would not stand up in court. How is this good? No artifical deposits of matter in the ice. All the frozes pollen and chemicals present globally get deposited without any extra substances from nearby that could mess up the entie area by not giving an accurate description of the global mean.

YOU HAVE TO PROVE THE EXISTENCE THAT GREENHOUSE GASES CAUSE INFRARED LIGHT TO SOME HOW PASS THROUGH IT ON THE WAY IN, REFLECT OFF THE EARTH, THAN GET TRAPPED IN THE ATMOSPHERE CAUSING THE EARTH TO GET WARMER. Until you prove it, it's just a claim. You asked for my proof, I don't have to prove the non-existent.

Whoa. Relax there buddy. Don't have an aneurysm. Who is getting emotional now? And who is the hypocrite here? Hint: not me.

Here is a very simle experiment usually performed in an elementary school science class;

http://www.woodrow.org/teachers/esi/1998/p/ghe/index.htm#Activity_I

Basically, the students made little greenhouses. One was covered with saran wrap to seal it off, and the other was left open so the air could move in and out freely.

What does this illustrate? The fact that the gases present in the air can hold heat, and thus heat up. In the sealed house, the temperature will increase. In the open one it will remain at ambient temperature.

How does this relate to the earth? The gasese in the atmosphere do not go anywhere. We are like the sealed greenhouse. The planet is travelling through space and the gases cannot exchange with the gases of space. Because there are none in space. Its empty. Our atmosphere stays. And it can also increase in temperature because gases can, and do aborb heat. The heat comes from the sun btw.

You can dance around all the points you want, talk about SUV's, oil companies, correlations, and anything else you want too, but until the prove that greenhouse gases are causing warmth, than all you're blowing is your own hot air.

I just did that. If you don't believe me, do the experiment yoursely. It will cost you 2 coke bottles, two thermometers and a handful of dirt.

Start thinking like a man of science, not a person that is trying to emotionally bully people into believing them like a religion. There's no need to talk about the sins of driving a car or the punishments of released air born diseases from ice caps because it's irrelevant.

Why must you always bring up Religion? I have not mentioned it once, except when I keep calling you out on it. This is the third time.

As for me bullying:

Bully: someone who uses their strength or power to hurt or intimidate others. -Google definitions.


Interesting definition. So I guess in order to bully someone you must do harm to them. But what am I doing except writing words ON A PAGE. Seriously man, act like a man.

"Help! Help! The man writing stuff on the internet is bullying me! Help!" LOL :crackup:

 

[djbr]

What? Is that all Mr. Galt?

You're just going to let some science and 'facts' stand in the way of your personal opinion? Have you no supposition left to blow away my supporting proofs?

Someone is taking this way too serious...

BTW, I think this is bull. Every now and then someone comes up with another quest to save the human beings from destruction. Something to shake the economy up and put another trend so people have some reason to buy something new and "ecologically correct".

And no I do not have any science to back anything up, neither I have the desire to.

I've just seen this enough times to guess it's just a factoid. And even if it's not, well, so what? As if people will drop their cars and use bicycles instead, for example. I am a cyclist and love it -- most short distances I always go with my bike. Most people will not ever do it, unless they have no fuxing option, like gas prices getting out of control. Even if that happens, I still have some doubts. A car is a status symbol, people do not drop things like this easily.

Let me add that I do not use a bicycle out of political correctness. I use it because I like it, it makes me healthier. My car is a gas guzzler, and I like it that way. Gotta love HPs!!

Poverty is a huge problem too, yet it's around for a long time. In fact, most problems are around for a long time, and no amount of convincing people will change zilch. Unless things get way out of control, nothing is gonna change.

 

[Call_Me_Daddy]

Someone is taking this way too serious... .

Thanks. I just can't stand morons who have only opinions and nothing else.

BTW, I think this is bull. Every now and then someone comes up with another quest to save the human beings from destruction.

I assure you that its not. This has been a long time coming. Scientisits have been speaking this for years. The study of climate has also been going on for decades.. since the 20s or 30s. I forget when it starts.

And even if it's not, well, so what? As if people will drop their cars and use bicycles instead, for example. I am a cyclist and love it -- most short distances I always go with my bike. Most people will not ever do it, unless they have no fuxing option, like gas prices getting out of control. Even if that happens, I still have some doubts. A car is a status symbol, people do not drop things like this easily.

Let go of cars and ride bikes? Hell no!

But instead buy more fuel efficient cars that get incredible mileage.

Here's a very efficient electric car that looks like a Ferari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster

You can have your cake and eat it too. You just have to push the automakers to make better cars and use all that technology they keep stockpiling.

Poverty is a huge problem too, yet it's around for a long time. In fact, most problems are around for a long time, and no amount of convincing people will change zilch. Unless things get way out of control, nothing is gonna change.

You're right about that. And things will change very soon. Just have to wait a few years for things to turn a little worse and everybody panics like its armageddon.

We're already getting a small taste of it. Hurricanes last year reaching as far north as the UK and Germany, and actually touching down. Katrina caused by warmer than normal coastal waters that helped to make the storm bigger than before. The Aral Sea in Russia is almost dried up. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea


I have no doubt we will see more of this in the future. Something will be done about it eventually.

 

[Last Man Standing]

You asked the wrong question! The planet is always in flux - the question is what is CAUSING global warming, if it exists?

 

[jonwon]

What i find disturbing is:

why does it cost to be privilaged to use greener ideals?

Or why does the environment issues i.e global wamring always come with a price tag to the consumer.

Or why do governments always tag a new increase on cost with environment issues.

If there was a real threat then why is it not been addressed to a reasonable degree and why when it is addresses it comes with a price tag to you and me and the average person and why do we always seem to foot the bill whilst as put by others the ones imposing the bills and the extra fee's are using about 50x as much as the average person is?

Makes one wonder now doesn't it.

 

[Call_Me_Daddy]

You asked the wrong question! The planet is always in flux - the question is what is CAUSING global warming, if it exists?

It does exist. The data shows it.


And the answer is: People.

Think about it. Who's putting all the carbon in the air? Us. You have farmers down south clearing rainforest by burning it down, to make space for farming. (Guess what trees are mostly made of?)

You also have all these millions of cars that put into the atmosphere yearly (on average) three times their own weight.

You alse have planes, cargo ships that transport goods from one continent to another, same with trains, and construction equipment, mining equipment, oil refineries that also work on oil, natural gas heating in homes, powerpplants that run on coal (40% of powerplants on thi us Run on Coal), powerplants that run on natural gas, oil.... etc.

All of this adds up.

Now try to guess how much of our energy comes from clean sources (clean as in it doesn't dump CO2)? Like nuclear, and wind and such?

 

[Call_Me_Daddy]

What i find disturbing is:

why does it cost to be privilaged to use greener ideals?

Yes. Right now it does, but that's because the price of the technology. This drops as it becomes more common and automakers, and appliance makers outfit their plants with assembly lines to lower the cost.

This is true of hybrids. They're going way down in price.

Compare the first Honda Hybrid to the New Ford Explorer Hybrid. Big difference.

Or why does the environment issues i.e global wamring always come with a price tag to the consumer.

Global changes always come with a price tag, get used to it. Wars change economies, prices skyrocket on battlezones, natural disasters skyrocket prices (let's see how cheap a bottle of water is in the New Orleans after Katrina).

The economy is fluid and always changes.

Or why do governments always tag a new increase on cost with environment issues.

Could you please reword this question? It doesn't make sense to me.

If there was a real threat then why is it not been addressed to a reasonable degree and why when it is addresses it comes with a price tag to you and me and the average person and why do we always seem to foot the bill whilst as put by others the ones imposing the bills and the extra fee's are using about 50x as much as the average person is?

It is being adressed. Kind of. The Americans, the EU, and Canada are adressing the issue but there is alot of squabbling and flinging sh*t beween the politicians. You know how long it takes them to do things.

And we got the foot because we have always gotten the foot. This isn't anything new, not on this issue and not on any other. The rich always get it easy, and sometimes even profit from things like this. Just look at the war in Iraq. Who's making the money?

Not the average soldier... that's for sure.

 

[Nighthawk]

Whatever it's cause, the effects are not going to be off-set by people cycling to work or taking fewer airplane rides. The green movements answer to developing countries is that they should remain pre-industrial. Unfair and unlikely.

They need to put some giant sun-shades in space to cool things down a little. I had this idea a few years ago, and was pleased to see (a slightly better thought-through version of) it recently being touted as a potential solution.

 

[Call_Me_Daddy]

Whatever it's cause, the effects are not going to be off-set by people cycling to work or taking fewer airplane rides. The green movements answer to developing countries is that they should remain pre-industrial. Unfair and unlikely.

That is very true. But there is a solution. Use better energy sources.

Geothermal powerplants that run off the heat of the earth's Mantle. Nuclear Energy as long as the waste is properly disposed of, solar panels (big improvement in solar technology over past few years) and wind energy are all great alternatives to Coal and Oil which polute and heat the atmosphere.

Especially Nuclear Energy. Those plants give out incredible power from such little material.

 

[CLOONEY]

Thanks. I just can't stand morons who have only opinions and nothing else.

I have no doubt we will see more of this in the future. Something will be done about it eventually.

I agree.

Global warming is a very very serious truth! Imagine if there was an asteroid coming at earth, hitting in 50 years time. There would be uncountable movies, printing press, media ALL over it! This is the same as global warming. The effects of it are already extremelly obvious. I have studied this as an economist, and its undoubtably true. Europe will be covered in snow even in summer, from increased wind speeds blowing ice cold air off the north pole, in years to come. Noone can measure the timelines exactly, but no doubt its not hundreds of years away before we will see come catastrophic events. The trouble is, every market is based on money as the equilibrium point, which makes it VERY hard, and a political issue to fix. Pollution (global warming) is an externality, so global governments had better act quick! And countries such as China, had better get heavily involved, because with their lack of technology, and growing resource use, it makes their levels of pollution that much higher!

Just on a side note, where I live currently, it is summer, and usually hot and sunny all summer long. This February, nearly every single day, there were HUGE electrical storms, and one pouring down so much ice, that the city was shut for an entire day, some places will be shut for months. This, in Summer, when everyone usualy spends the entire day at the pool! Incredible, I have never seen anything like it in my entire life.

 

[CLOONEY]

That is very true. But there is a solution. Use better energy sources.

Geothermal powerplants that run off the heat of the earth's Mantle. Nuclear Energy as long as the waste is properly disposed of, solar panels (big improvement in solar technology over past few years) and wind energy are all great alternatives to Coal and Oil which polute and heat the atmosphere.

Especially Nuclear Energy. Those plants give out incredible power from such little material.

Or perhaps instead of Nuclear energy, Thorium, as found in India in such abundance that it could serve the world with energy for thousands of years to come.

Another interesting fact I heard, if everyone painted their roof white, it would drop the global temperature by one degree, due to reflection of the suns heat.

Ill have to go and watch the inconveniant truth. Might watch it today actually.

 

[Call_Me_Daddy]

I agree.
Europe will be covered in snow even in summer, from increased wind speeds blowing ice cold air off the north pole, in years to come. Noone can measure the timelines exactly, but no doubt its not hundreds of years away before we will see come catastrophic events..

What the hell are you taking about? Did you come here from an alternate reality in a time machine? Maybe a Delorean?

Just on a side note, where I live currently, it is summer, and usually hot and sunny all summer long. This February, nearly every single day, there were HUGE electrical storms, and one pouring down so much ice, that the city was shut for an entire day, some places will be shut for months. This, in Summer, when everyone usualy spends the entire day at the pool! Incredible, I have never seen anything like it in my entire life.

Seriously. Unless you live inside the eye of a hurricane, you're not going to see devastating effects like that from global warming. You just probably saw a freak thunderstorm. Probably influenced by the effects of global warming... but its still to early to tell. Things won't get so chaotic due to warming yet. Give it a few years.

What you will see is weird weather patterns. Increasde precipitation in different areas of the world and drought in others. (like in Australia) Warmer oceans mean more typhoons and hurricanes (like in the States, Germany, UK, Canada... we're all getting hurrincanes now. Small ones, but its a start.) . Most will be stronger than in previous years and so forth.

Hell won't rain down on earth yet, but the weather still does damage to human settlement (2-3 billion in damage in Germany from some freakin wind... honestly) and will greatly affect economies if it gets bad enough, especially in countries that depend heavily on exports of food and such.

 

[Call_Me_Daddy]

Or perhaps instead of Nuclear energy, Thorium, as found in India in such abundance that it could serve the world with energy for thousands of years to come.

Thorium IS nuclear energy. Its considered as an alternative to Uranium because its slightly radioactive.

I haven't heard of any working Thorium reactors, the Indians are still in developmental stages. Uranium will have to do for now.

 

[Michele l'Arcangelo]

okay, so we got it clear that the earth IS getting warmer... but due to natural cycles.

but what do you all think about the advertisements advertising it as if we can actually stop it?

what about the kyoto protocol? just a false thing to push 2nd and 3rd world countries forward and pull 1st world countries back?

 

[BBX]

the environment has its own way of protecting itself. look at it this way, an increase in tempeture increases the rate of evaporation of bodies of water. This evaporation creates clouds, which block sun rays from striking the earth. The more evaporation, the more clouds.

 

[Call_Me_Daddy]

okay, so we got it clear that the earth IS getting warmer... but due to natural cycles.

No. I don't think so. We won't be able to tell conclusivelly until the Politicians stop flinging all this misinformation as they try to tear each other down like children at the playground. I still believe its caused by us. I like to look at the science and make an informed decision rather than listen to some snake oil salesmen.

but what do you all think about the advertisements advertising it as if we can actually stop it?

With the current technology we can reduce the output heavily. I don't think we will bo able to reverse it so quickly. It took a long tie to take effect and it will take a long time to reverse as well.

We just have to push the corporations to release better technology and retrofit the assembly lines to mass produce. Its not just you and me... the little people. Everyone must do something.

what about the kyoto protocol? just a false thing to push 2nd and 3rd world countries forward and pull 1st world countries back?

Well one aspect of the Kyoto is to reduce CO2 emissions. I agree with this, and it can be done. We just have to switch the tech we use.

Its all about technology. It got us into this mess, and it can get us out.

 

[Call_Me_Daddy]

the environment has its own way of protecting itself. look at it this way, an increase in tempeture increases the rate of evaporation of bodies of water. This evaporation creates clouds, which block sun rays from striking the earth. The more evaporation, the more clouds.

What a great idea.

Now we can live with permanent cloud cover. I wonder how the food will grow without the sun?

 

[BBX]

What a great idea.

Now we can live with permanent cloud cover. I wonder how the food will grow without the sun?

I got that from my science teacher, heh

 

[Howard Roark]

If you want to know the truth about Global Warming, then watch this Video- its a documentary that recently aired in Great Britian. Its title? The Great Global Warming Swindle.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9005566792811497638&q=Global Warming Swindle&hl=en