Death Penalty: Debate

Deep Dish

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I wrote the following to post on a debate forum, then learned I couldn't start a new thread. So, I'm posting it here. I used to be a supporter of the death penalty but switched camps after having studied Criminal Justice in college. Here are the basic argumentive points:

1. The Criminal Justice system is not about retribution (revenge). It's not about "an eye for an eye". It's about trying to correct the behavior of offenders to prevent recidivism, by giving out progressively longer sentences for progressively more serious crimes.

2. If we think there is no chance the offender can be corrected or if we don't want to risk the chance of recidivism, we throw away the key. Greater society is not harmed by keeping murderers isolated from society, like duh.

3. Death is an irreversible consequence and innocent people have been put to death. Life in prison without the possibility of parole accomplishes the same societal protection as a death sentence except with the capacity to correct errors.

4. Since death is irreversible, there must be super due process. For all other criminals, including run of the mill murderers, you only get one appeal, but death penalty cases can appeal all the way up to the Supreme Court, twice. Consequently, the litigation of death penalty cases cost about two-three times more money than the actual expenses of life in prison. It costs $2-3 million, even if the actual execution costs $2.00. Furthermore, the death penalty doesn't really free up space in prisons, as only a small handful are on death row and the legal process takes about ten or twenty years. Due to the possibility of executing innocent people, which does happen, you cannot justifiably argue the legal process should be shortened.

5. The death penalty increases homicide rates and homicide rates increase by four percent during and for several months after high-profile death penalty cases. This counter-deterrence is called the brutalization effect. Whenever the death penalty has been repealed, homicide rates decrease.

6. The chances of escaping from a maximum security prison are almost zero. It happens on occasion but it's extremely rare. Furthermore, fugitives usually don't last very long in manhunts. Even still, it would be wrong to write societal policy (killing people) guarding against something which essentially doesn't happen (escapes). In the 1970's, when 40 death row inmates were released from California's prisons after having served about 20 years in prison, only one returned to death row. Being in prison for decades often profoundly changes people, so it would be erroneous to assume most death row inmates, if released, would murder again.

I have contemplated this subject for years and I can think of no possible argument to support the death penalty except retribution. But the fact remains the death penalty only costs society more (financially and homicidally) and in all aspects is simply ineffective. Sentence death row candidates to life in prison without the possibility of parole and forget about them.
 

Bible_Belt

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I would like to see the death penalty for people who have killed twice - two separate occasions, each proven in court beyond a reasonable doubt. Those are the killers that it makes sense to execute.

I'd give a lot of people one free murder, or at least just a manslaughter charge. That is often how it happens. I know a guy who beat another guy to death with his bare hands - he plead out to invol manslaughter and will be out of the state pen in 3-4. It's not exactly fair, but often how it works. Another thing, most people who get murdered did not have clean hands themselves. It usually takes a lot to anger someone enough to make them want to kill you. There are a lot of people in jail because they murdered a man who raped their wife, daughter, mother, or sister. A lot of murder stories have two sides.
 

CaptainJ

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I disagree with the death penalty for precisely the points you made.
 

CGE333

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The death penalty is a lot of power to be giving to the government. I can easily say today that i am against it, but it is hard to say what my feelings would be if someone close to me had been murdered by someone.

Plus, I think it is safe to say that with the # of people that were on death row and then exonerated through DNA, that at some point we have executed people that were not guilty of the crime they were convicted of.
 

Charm&Style

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I think it should be up the the closest members of the victim. They get to chose if the offender should be spared or punished by death. Ive seen way too many documentaries on our prison system and its a shame. For the most part those that go in rarely change. We need to change our prison system and make it more aggressive.
 

Dust 2 Dust

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I disagree with it. A government that has the ability to legally kill its own citizens is a government with too much power.

They also repeatedly execute innocent people. To date, over 300 people on death row in the US have been released after exoneration by new DNA technology.
 

horaholic

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I think you point about homicide rates increasing where there is a death penalty involved is a clinching argument, along with the fact that it costs more money to kill them, than to lock them away for life. Where did you get the 'brutalization' statistics? That makes me curious.

I wouldnt be against the death penalty if there were a sure fire system to not only know beyond any concept of doubt, they are guilty, by multiple witnesses, or cameras or whatever, but a way to discern a difference between crimes of passion, (and/or semi-deserving, defense etc), and cold blooded meaningless murder (robberies gone wrong; gang initiations, stupid violence in general, etc.) There just isnt a way to draw that line though. It would be twisted around, just like domestic violence/child abuse laws have been. All in all though; off the street is off the street, either way. Im kind of neutral about it. I sure as hell wouldn't protest someone getting fried. Putting someone to death is a judgement that noone should have on their shoulders.
 

TheMainMan

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Surely we as decent human beings are above death for death.

You have to set the example that life is precious. Killing in return for killing does not reduce the incedents of murder.

I think you would find that countries with the death penalty have far higher murder rates than those without.

Also there is allways the issue of innocent people being put on death row and for this reason alone it should be banned.
 

OTB

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Dust 2 Dust said:
They also repeatedly execute innocent people.

To date, over 300 people on death row in the US have been released after exoneration by new DNA technology.
See, all these people were released after exoneration...

Hence, the government does not "repeatedly execute innocent people"
 

The Bat

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Doesn't the DA often use death penalty as leverage to get confessions?
 

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Connor99

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Death Penalty is too easy



A lot of peace in death..especailly lethal injection....Im more for letting the trash sit in a tiny cell and go nuts thinking about what they did



Paul Bernardo is living in a Canadain prison for his brutal crimes..He's been locked up for 23 hours each day in a tiny cell with squat to do for the last 15 years..and he will live like that intill he dies of old age....he wishes Canada had the death Penalty
 

Da Realist

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OTB said:
Hence, the government does not "repeatedly execute innocent people"
That's kind of like saying the radiator has always worked right after a guy came and fixed it.

My view on the death penalty is that it should be used when the person is proven to be too far gone to redeem. Serial killers, mass muderers, drug kingpins, most first degree murderers, etc. After that, it's long prison sentences to a couple years depending on evidence and the circumstances.

Some may argue that allowing the death penalty is giving the government too much power, but it's necessary. Some people are just do not care who lives and who dies and it is the responsibilty of the government to protect it's citizens by getting these people off the streets. If the government won't do that and allows even one to get back out to be able to terrorize people, the government isn't doing it's job. That's when ordinary people would have the right to capture the person and kill him or her themselves. The flip side is that if citizens have to repeatedly do it, then what do they need a government for? You're paying taxes to someone who won't even keep you safe, so the next logical step would be to get rid of the government itself. Someone may say that you can hold the person in jail for life, but that's supposed to be worst than death and now you have a case where the person is being treated cruelly by the government. So why not just execute the person and put them out of everyone's misery? No drain on taxpayers and fewer jails that need to be built.
 

Deep Dish

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I'm going to respond by this weekend.
 

piranha45

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the criminal justice system is about DETERRENCE. A few are punished in the interest of making the majority too scared to become violators.

I think we need to go back to medieval era justice systems. I read that in Saudi Arabia where, upon conviction of something serious like murder, you are given 7 days to live and then get your head chopped off in public. I'm all for that. The Islamic countries have a definite edge over the West in respect to criminal justice, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, no system is perfect, some of the innocent may be slain along with the guilty, but such is the price of order in society; you have to be ruthless with people.
 

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Inquisitus

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piranha45 said:
the criminal justice system is about DETERRENCE. A few are punished in the interest of making the majority too scared to become violators.

I think we need to go back to medieval era justice systems. I read that in Saudi Arabia where, upon conviction of something serious like murder, you are given 7 days to live and then get your head chopped off in public. I'm all for that. The Islamic countries have a definite edge over the West in respect to criminal justice, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, no system is perfect, some of the innocent may be slain along with the guilty, but such is the price of order in society; you have to be ruthless with people.
Buddy, read post #13 above and click on the link. It has stats to show that crime rates are higher in death penalty states than non-death penalty states.
As Deep Dish has said, the death penalty isn't a very good deterrent.

.
 

Da Realist

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piranha45 said:
the criminal justice system is about DETERRENCE. A few are punished in the interest of making the majority too scared to become violators.

I think we need to go back to medieval era justice systems. I read that in Saudi Arabia where, upon conviction of something serious like murder, you are given 7 days to live and then get your head chopped off in public. I'm all for that. The Islamic countries have a definite edge over the West in respect to criminal justice, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, no system is perfect, some of the innocent may be slain along with the guilty, but such is the price of order in society; you have to be ruthless with people.
The justice system is not about deterring crime; it's retribution. Nothing is going to stop a person from committing a crime if he or she chooses to. People have been executed since the beginning of time and yet you still have murders, right? So how is the promise of punishment going to stop some people? The system was set up so that there would be a set way to deal with disputes. If you learn something while you're in jail, great, but the whole point was that you would pay for your action in some way.
 

piranha45

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Ooh, look, statistics! Statistics prove everything. Lol...

If I wasn't scared of the consequences, I'd have no trouble at all going on a robbery-rape-murder spree. Maybe some people in here would have a problem doing it, but I don't think the criminal justice system caters to such folk. It's just designed to keep the average joe in line with society. If it wasn't, then we'd have a lot of guys on here who would be murderers because there's no way they'd have done anything less to cope with being dumped/cheated on by their thought-to-be ultimate gf.
 

Da Realist

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piranha45 said:
If I wasn't scared of the consequences, I'd have no trouble at all going on a robbery-rape-murder spree. Maybe some people in here would have a problem doing it, but I don't think the criminal justice system caters to such folk. It's just designed to keep the average joe in line with society. If it wasn't, then we'd have a lot of guys on here who would be murderers because there's no way they'd have done anything less to cope with being dumped/cheated on by their thought-to-be ultimate gf.
That's where I don't believe you. If you had it in you, you'd be in prison right now. As rational as you think people are, they're going to do what they're going to do. All some need are an excuse like a being dumped or fired to bring out what's already there.
 

piranha45

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Believe as you'd like.

And what are you going to do with them, once they've committed the murder? Are you going to spend xxxxxxx amount of dollars keeping them alive in prison for the next 40 years, or would you prefer they summarily executed with an axe to the neck upon the moment of conviction?

The US justice system is flawed in that it gives too many rights to the convicted, imo. Convicts shouldn't have to worry about getting gangbanged in prison, where they cost society hundreds of thousands in living fees; they should worry about how many hours/minutes/seconds of existence they have remaining. Or, how many hours/minutes/seconds/weeks of unspeakable physical torture they'll have to endure, if judge/victim/jury/whoever sees that more fitting. And if we get some poor innocent bastards mixed up in it, well, noone ever said life was fair. I know the justice system is geared toward deterrence, but I'm all for retribution AND deterrence, myself.
 
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