Damage Control: Ultimatum Mistake

[Ivar]

Summary:

Met a girl. First two months are probably the best start of any relationship I've had in my 30+ years. She's considerate, engaged, and constantly working for my approval and signaling how much she values me. Eventually by 2 months I start to open up more emotionally and we seem to be on the dream path to bliss, she even drops the L word.

Turbulence comes in month 3, her work life (new career change, first year on job) hits a major stress... working weekends, late nights.... period that is sustained for several weeks..... she becomes progressively more stressed & depressed. ..What little time we are able to spend is overshadowed by her depression... she starts feeling apathetic and is paniced by that.... I have quite a bit of knowledge on this topic so I calmly explain how depression can cause people to withdraw, lose interest in people or activities, and generally feel 'dead' emotionally. I tell her it will pass, and to hang in there. We enter a repeating cycle of her panic over feeling emotionally flat and me telling her to think through it rationally and not rely on feelings when depressed, because depression skews & emotionally compromises them.

In my frustration I make what I now view as a critical mistake -- since we seemed to be going around in circles, I decided she needs to read a bit the topic herself to recognize this is well studied behavior people survive... I txt her that I'll only continue talking about this after she has read a few short articles I provided her. Unfortunately, by this point I was getting annoyed and so my phrasing was pretty abrasive and came out as an ultimatum.... I realized I slipped up right after I sent it.

To make it worse we had this exchange the day before she was to leave for a 9 day trip abroad with her sister. Total silence since my last txt. It has now been a week.

Is there any way to 'reset' without having her perceive that I am backtracking? True to my word I haven't contacted her either, no txt or calls, nada -- my worry is that we are now locked in a pride stalemate. I have no idea where she is emotionally .... if absence is going to make her miss me, or if she was so upset by my last message that she is using this time to move on.

Options:

1. Wait it out, maintain NC and let her come to me -- risk that she never may do so.
2. Reestablish contact after her trip without acknowledging my prior remark, say something casual. Just to reboot communication and go from there.

How can we pull off a hail Mary pass here and save the day?

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

They're always on a trip with their 'sister'. And by sister, I mean some random guy who's boning her up the ass while she's sucking a second guy off. How can you actually know it's a trip with her sister? And why is she taking a 'trip' in the first place.

Never open up. They use that as ammo against you and see you as weak afterwards. No one likes a weak man. It's a flaw myself that I need to work on.

It's only been 3 months. At least it was good while it lasted. But from this point out, she doesn't love you anymore. Honeymoon stage is over.

 

[Ivar]

The trip is legit, her and her sister take an annual trip to a new country every year. It was planned out before I even met her and I had been around for some of the preparation discussions long before we ran into any of these issues.

But you're right, I messed up. I admit I am not a DJ or PUA, I'm actually new to this stuff... just a guy with distinctive physical presence and a lot of natural charisma and confidence. Overall that has served me pretty well, but this time I let my guard down cause I started to care --- and you're right --- it is working against me now.

All that said, I appreciate the response and want to know your vote on the options.

 

[Ivar]

@Danger I think I see the negative implication you're warning of here. Exotic locale in this case is just a standard Euro country, but I get what you mean by what is the underlying motivation. Truthfully though I had taken it as a positive, as I am pretty into traveling myself and wanted that to be something I shared with a partner in an LTR. Good to look at it from other perspectives though... thanks for the input.

 

[Ivar]

@da dynamically Your explanation makes perfect sense... I see now that in making more favorable assumptions about her behavior (ie: new job, she doesn't handle stress well, doesn't understand depression) I was in reality creating excuses for her and clouding my own judgement. Painful lesson learned.

If you wanted to provide the best chance of salvaging, what would you do at this point? Right now I am inclined to do nothing and keep NC, as I don't want to further lower my value by reaching out to her. Do you concur?

 

[dude99]

Summary:

Met a girl. First two months are probably the best start of any relationship I've had in my 30+ years. She's considerate, engaged, and constantly working for my approval and signaling how much she values me. Eventually by 2 months I start to open up more emotionally and we seem to be on the dream path to bliss, she even drops the L word.

Turbulence comes in month 3, her work life (new career change, first year on job) hits a major stress... working weekends, late nights.... period that is sustained for several weeks..... she becomes progressively more stressed & depressed. ..What little time we are able to spend is overshadowed by her depression... she starts feeling apathetic and is paniced by that.... I have quite a bit of knowledge on this topic so I calmly explain how depression can cause people to withdraw, lose interest in people or activities, and generally feel 'dead' emotionally. I tell her it will pass, and to hang in there. We enter a repeating cycle of her panic over feeling emotionally flat and me telling her to think through it rationally and not rely on feelings when depressed, because depression skews & emotionally compromises them.

In my frustration I make what I now view as a critical mistake -- since we seemed to be going around in circles, I decided she needs to read a bit the topic herself to recognize this is well studied behavior people survive... I txt her that I'll only continue talking about this after she has read a few short articles I provided her. Unfortunately, by this point I was getting annoyed and so my phrasing was pretty abrasive and came out as an ultimatum.... I realized I slipped up right after I sent it.

To make it worse we had this exchange the day before she was to leave for a 9 day trip abroad with her sister. Total silence since my last txt. It has now been a week.

Is there any way to 'reset' without having her perceive that I am backtracking? True to my word I haven't contacted her either, no txt or calls, nada -- my worry is that we are now locked in a pride stalemate. I have no idea where she is emotionally .... if absence is going to make her miss me, or if she was so upset by my last message that she is using this time to move on.

Options:

1. Wait it out, maintain NC and let her come to me -- risk that she never may do so.
2. Reestablish contact after her trip without acknowledging my prior remark, say something casual. Just to reboot communication and go from there.

How can we pull off a hail Mary pass here and save the day?

Dude i admire your patients for trying to be a "good guy" but all that will get you in a chick like this is ine who will eventually cheat on you and then blame all her problems on you.

You have been condutioned by society that you are supposed to rescue or fix this broken bird. This is not your job. If the shoe was on the other foot she would have kicked your ass to the curb long ago.

Too much baggage. Too much baggage. Too much baggage.

Ask yourself this.

Do you want her to be part of the cargo? Or part of the crew.

When you are the only one carrying the load, it's time to drop and walk away.

 

[dude99]

The trip is legit, her and her sister take an annual trip to a new country every year. It was planned out before I even met her and I had been around for some of the preparation discussions long before we ran into any of these issues.

But you're right, I messed up. I admit I am not a DJ or PUA, I'm actually new to this stuff... just a guy with distinctive physical presence and a lot of natural charisma and confidence. Overall that has served me pretty well, but this time I let my guard down cause I started to care --- and you're right --- it is working against me now.

All that said, I appreciate the response and want to know your vote on the options.

Ask yourself this. Was she excited for the trip?

 

[Roober]

Everyone has to work and deal with worldly pressure. She is not a unique snowflake. Her change of behavior is caused by your value fluctuating. You say the first two months of a relationship are the best part because most people behave to please the other person during the first two months. You were getting a more feminine version of her because she was seeking your approval. As soon as you stopped being a challenge, she no longer felt compelled to put on her good side for you. I always tell my cousin fast Eddie (Don't have a cousin named Eddie. Just an ode to Doc Love) that a relationship always ends as soon as the guy slips up and stops being a challenge.

You started off as a challenge and then became needy to the point where you were trying to solve her emotional problems. Women don't want to be solved. It will just give them a headache. The elusive obvious is that you remaining as a challenge is what keeps her in check. Whatever life stress she has to deal with, she would gladly toss aside when she is with you. There is no solving women. There is only being attractive and challenging and shaping women into behaving around you. When she is with you is a time to be romantic. It shouldn't feel like a psychotherapy session.

It might be salvageable. It might not. In the future, never let your guard down completely and always maintain an air intrigue and challenge.

And this is something most men struggle with. We try to solve women's problems, when all they really want is someone to listen. I still find myself doing this today with almost everyone, it is just what men do. When women talk about problems, you redirect or just let them word vomit. Don't offer advice unless they ask...

She doesn't have good coping mechanisms for stress. This is a serious problem. You dodged a bullet

This as well. Look at this woman's problems and see if she is just being overly dramatic and incapable of dealing with her emotions. She is likely to be a branch swinging monkey if she can't handle her emotions properly. She will just look for the quick fix if the relationship hits tought times

 

[sazc]

I disagree, her depression has NOTHING to do with losing attraction for you, or your value fluctuating.
She was riding high on the endorphins of a new relationship, ignoring all her other issues. That kind of endorphine rush is unsustainable long term. You can't make depression for long. She crashed and came back to the reality of HER life, which she finds difficult to navigate. Her depression has nothing to do with you, it's all her and, apparently, she had poor coping skills.
You are a good guy for trying to help her but you are woefully unqualified to do so.

This IS the female that you are dating. You will not be able to fix her. You need to decide if you can love with her AS IS or of you are not up for this relationship. Understand that no one should judge you for bailing. You have to be happy with whom you hitch your wagon too.

This is also why we need to tread lightly in the first six months or so while we watch the other person reveal themselves, and we reveal ourselves. Don't get overly emotionally invested for six months to a year until you are sure of who this person is.

Good luck

 

[The Duke]

Ivar- women don't often want to fix their problems. By you offering her any sort of "psychological" explanation it likely threatened her already low self-esteem and made her feel worse about herself. Its doesn't matter how correct you likely were. She wasn't looking for a solution to feel better. All she wanted was for you to listen to her carry on about how hard life is and how everything upsets her. All women really want is to be validated. And in validating her she will feel better about herself and more connected to you in turn increasing positive emotions. There is really nothing rational about it.

Read the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". It explains how to deal with women's negative motional behavior.

 

[wifehunter]

Forget everything else, if she is "exploring" an exotic locale with her sister every year, I would pass and find a girl not infected with wanderlust.

She could also be infected with something else.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

I disagree, her depression has NOTHING to do with losing attraction for you, or your value fluctuating.
She was riding high on the endorphins of a new relationship, ignoring all her other issues. That kind of endorphine rush is unsustainable long term. You can't make depression for long. She crashed and came back to the reality of HER life, which she finds difficult to navigate. Her depression has nothing to do with you, it's all her and, apparently, she had poor coping skills.
You are a good guy for trying to help her but you are woefully unqualified to do so.

This IS the female that you are dating. You will not be able to fix her. You need to decide if you can love with her AS IS or of you are not up for this relationship. Understand that no one should judge you for bailing. You have to be happy with whom you hitch your wagon too.

This is also why we need to tread lightly in the first six months or so while we watch the other person reveal themselves, and we reveal ourselves. Don't get overly emotionally invested for six months to a year until you are sure of who this person is.

Good luck

I get a feeling that 'depression' is just an excuse for her to act like this. Women tend to self-sabotage relationships they aren't happy with to get the guy to break up with her or give her an excuse to breakup with him. If they were to directly confront any issue they themselves personally have, it would destroy themselves and they cannot handle the mental load of fully understanding the idea of 'I ****ed up'.

 

[sazc]

I get a feeling that 'depression' is just an excuse for her to act like this. Women tend to self-sabotage relationships they aren't happy with to get the guy to break up with her or give her an excuse to breakup with him. If they were to directly confront any issue they themselves personally have, it would destroy themselves and they cannot handle the mental load of fully understanding the idea of 'I ****ed up'.

I find it difficult to believe that a female would be that calculating as to say "I want out, I'm going to pretend to be depressed so he will leave me" why not just ghost him? Maybe she IS that b1tchy?
I really don't think there is value added by spending time trying to determine if she's being calculating it not. Why spin your hamster wheel like that?

Move away from any paranoia and self blame and realize/accept that this IS who she is and ask yourself, as a MAN, is this what you want in a partner? It's a simple yes or no answer, no hamster wheel spinning necessary and no reason to feel guilty for not wanting to White Knight it.

My role of thumb is never take on someone with problems, it only complicates your life. I stop thinking at that point because who cares what the motivation is for the behavior? It's as simple as "nope".

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

I find it difficult to believe that a female would be that calculating as to say "I want out, I'm going to pretend to be depressed so he will leave me" why not just ghost him? Maybe she IS that b1tchy?
I really don't think there is value added by spending time trying to determine if she's being calculating it not. Why spin your hamster wheel like that?

Move away from any paranoia and self blame and realize/accept that this IS who she is and ask yourself, as a MAN, is this what you want in a partner? It's a simple yes or no answer, no hamster wheel spinning necessary and no reason to feel guilty for not wanting to White Knight it.

My role of thumb is never take on someone with problems, it only complicates your life. I stop thinking at that point because who cares what the motivation is for the behavior? It's as simple as "nope".

Obviously it is who she is. It is all subconscious, no one consciously thinks of those things. It's the same way with sh!t tests, girls don't think 'hmmm, I am going to test him to see how strong of a man he is'. Like you said, it IS how they are. They DO self-sabotage without realizing it. Why? It is a defensive mechanism to avoid any emotional trauma that may occur with confrontation.

 

[sazc]

I guess what I'm really trying to say is, move into the headspace where you realize it's not about you, it's about the other person and their issues.
Especially if you're solid, and offering something of substance. People have issues, and those issues have nothing to do with you. Don't spin the hamster wheel giving a shyt. Just recognize they have issues and move on.

 

[Glassguy]

You made the mistake of losing frame, being emotional and looking weak.

You had every right to make it known that her stress and depression was taking a toll on you. She probably went from fun and light hearted to dull and boring. That is an issue. But you lost frame in getting your point across.

If you chase now, you'll always be chasing and she will always be able to "one up you". Do not chase. If she wants you bad enough and isnt branch swinging on this trip, she will be back. That is if you allow her to be.

Right now the problem isnt the depression, stress, etc. The problem is that you lost frame and she bailed on you and went NC. Her not reaching out is the biggest issue. If its been a week, I am not sure that I would openly let her come marching right back in like nothing happened. As others have stated, you have really no idea what she has been up to for the last week. Assume the worst, do not reach out and be super cautious if she reaches out and wants to branch swing back.

Her: Hey stranger.....are you avoiding me? I have been busy but I thought youd call.

You: I have been busy. I feel like you bailed on me, and thats fine, because I have taken the last week to analyze what I want and need and I think I need some more time to make sure I am making the right decision. I will get back to you later when I have decided what I want to do. Take care hun......

 

[Ivar]

You guys are great, this is exactly the type of collective insight (and 'tough love') I was looking for, I want to thank everyone that is responding. I wish I had found this site earlier when the issue first arose, I understand now it's possible that I'm too late.

Lot's of valid observations from you guys .... I should have just STFU and listened not tried to solve her problems, the depression although real wasn't the root cause but she used it as a shield, admittedly she has some baggage (don't most by 30 though?)..... my empathy was likely taken as weakness by her..... my ultimatum pushed her further away.

Bit of background --- I got out of a LTR over a year ago and since then had been casually dating.... having a good time, lot's of sex and attending events and such, but none of it was connecting for me on a deeper level, and frankly that got boring after a while. But, I never had any problems with the girls misbehaving, in hindsight because I must have seemed a challenge, because I found them "fun" but I genuinely didn't care beyond that.

Later I met this girl and gradually a funny thing happened, I started to care and could actually see the possibility of this going somewhere meaningful. That's a great thing, but I obviously handled it wrong -- I didn't hold the "frame" to use your DJ lingo, I got caught up in her excitement for me and our relationship and it slipped out of my hands, and now it seems so is she.

So going forward I realize, if she resurfaces, I cannot simply press the "resume" button .... I need to reboot this thing... maintain some distance / aloofness, keep outings short-light-fun-sexual, don't become reactive, and control the tempo.

 

[Ivar]

@da dynamically You're right. By inserting myself into the problem discussion "actively" (trying to solve it) instead of "passively" (just listening / offering distraction) I inadvertently made myself a part of the problem, or at the very least created a strong association between myself and something negative / stressful <<< eitherway I understand, value & attraction plummet

Now to your point about empathy, I agree, but I said that because clinical depression is something I struggled with during my mid 20s... I've been free for years, but because of my own past I indeed found myself relating to some of what she was dealing with..... but I screwed up by trying to problem solve. To your point, I should have used my ability to relate to function as a good listener, or think of ways to provide pleasant distraction. I wasn't trying to be arrogant or a know-it-all, I wanted to relieve her -- I made a mistake.

The more I think about it, the more I realize most people, men & women, would probably rebel against an ultimatum out of dignity --- even if part of them still missed the person or wanted to talk. I need to undo that fvckup somehow if I am going to hit the 'reset' button....

 

[Ivar]

In hopes that this thread will someday be of help to others, I am providing a minor update...

It has now been over two weeks of radio silence (on both ends). I'll admit to being shocked by that... I've never had this happen before, not a good feeling. Obviously if someone goes silent for two weeks I consider us 'broken up', but without any sort of talk / closure.... it just seems so cowardly? Either cowardice or extreme indifference..... which are such extreme sudden changes from how she had been acting (in love, amazing gf material).

In addition to reading everyones' posts on the thread, I have been trying to educate myself more by reading stickies on the forum. I am now wondering, where is the line drawn between 'normal' fickle female behavior and conditions like BPD, Cluster B, Love Bombing, Projectors, etc? When I think about how amazingly well we had been connecting, how in sync our personalities were, how much effort she was putting in, trying so hard to impress me and ensure that this was going somewhere.... I'm still baffled by the sudden extreme change. I realize I made a few missteps of my own (trying to talk he through her stress) that likely lessened the attraction a bit, but I am struggling to see how that alone could explain such a rapid behavior change..... at the gut level I am feeling either some other event occurred that she didn't share with me, or she is emotionally broken in some way. Even with the depression tainting the last few weeks, our sexual chemistry was always ridiculous.... banged her brains out multiple times whenever we'd get together, even when she was mopey.... physically / sexually we were perfectly synchronized --- but emotionally she just seemed to suddenly withdraw / dissociate, after 2 months of being very invested. It's bizarre, she kept pushing for more emotion and then later when I finally caught up it's as if she became overwhelmed and panicked... withdrew. Either that or she felt she 'won', lost interest / attraction, and became indifferent. Just thinking aloud lads, open to hearing theories...

For those reading thinking 'who cares why, get over it and move on' ... I like to understand as best as possible to be better armed for the future. Thankfully, I have a lot of hobbies and a very active work-life, so I have been able to throw myself into those during this time. After a week I started 'spinning up some plates' (see I am learning the lingo) and went on a few dates, enjoyable as distractions but nothing I am really excited about yet. I don't get excited easily, which is why this whole thing is such a disappointment.

 

[Ivar]

It seems like you keep asking the same questions hoping for a different answer. Dealing with women is all about attraction. When there is no more attraction, at best she ghosts, at worse, she divorces you for all of your money and take full custody of your kids and ruins your life.

DA, I'm with you on the attraction part ---- my question comes from reading through a number of threads on the site focused on BPD and stuff like that. How can you tell? Where is the line? Or does it really all boil down to the same thing? Just trying to absorb info on the forum and make sense of it .... if not threads, any books you recommend?