Conventional and Post-Conventional People

[Master Homer]

After getting pissed off at getting denied from a college I wanted to go to and assessing my crappy high school grades I realized something.

I have always been told by teachers and co-workers that I am a lazy person. In some ways this was true, I never do any homework or assignments in school and I work rather slow at work (my test scores however are among or the highest in the class).

However, I don't think I'm a lazy person. In fact, I realize something. There really isn't any such thing a lazy person. There are however, two kinds of people I can describe.

Conventional: These people can do things for the sake of doing. They don't find meaning in anything they do. The most important thing is to get it done, and not what benefit doing it will accomplish. Conventional people are said to have "work ethic".
(Most people I believe are conventional people.)

Post-Conventional: These people do things because they benefit them. They look for greater meaning in everything they do. Then don't like bureaucracy. They get irate when they have to do something they can't find meaning in. They find wrong in the higher power. There is no “just do it” for post conventional people. Post-conventional people are said to be "lazy".
(Most people on this forum I believe are post-coventional.)

Unfortunately, society tends to tolerate the conventional people more then post-conventional people. That’s why we have bureaucracy.

 

[DJ_Dork]

Post Conventional sounds like the term Un Conventional. If you are truly an unconventional person you'd realize this.

 

[LouieVaton Don]

You can't just come on the board making up your own words and expect us to just go along with it.

 

[Master Homer]

I didn't make them up. They are part of Kohlberg's Theories of Morality.

 

[California Love]

If i had to go under one of those categories, I would have to say post-conventional.



However, I think this is pure bullshit. Post-conventional basically means stubborn, arrogant, rebellious, and norm-defying, which isn't always a good thing. We tend to do things only if we find that the job has purpose and meaning to it.


However, we need to realize that there are many things in life that we do not like doing. Schoolwork can be one of them. In the end, you need to do these. Good schooling, for example, is a necessity in respect, recognition, and power in your future life.

If you're "post-conventional" like me, just suck it up and do your damn work. It'll pay off in the end.

 

[California Love]

edit- dbl post

 

[Master Homer]

Originally posted by California Love
If i had to go under one of those categories, I would have to say post-conventional.



However, I think this is pure bullshit. Post-conventional basically means stubborn, arrogant, rebellious, and norm-defying, which isn't always a good thing. We tend to do things only if we find that the job has purpose and meaning to it.


However, we need to realize that there are many things in life that we do not like doing. Schoolwork can be one of them. In the end, you need to do these. Good schooling, for example, is a necessity in respect, recognition, and power in your future life.

If you're "post-conventional" like me, just suck it up and do your damn work. It'll pay off in the end.

I agree 100%. I'm going to post a guide on how post-conventional ("lazy") people can act like conventional people when need be.

 

[One on One]

I'm just like you, man. I think you should drop out of college. That's what I wished I did, but now I'm about 3 weeks from graduating so I'm going to finish up. I am Mensa material, but I always just get by with so-so grades and now I'm letting my grades slide even lower because I just don't care. I find school pointless and boring. I'm going to graduate in a few weeks and I'm supposed to be interested in doing some professor's stupid assignments?

Some people listen to whatever the professor tells them, like they are God or something. On the other hand, I question everything. I play little games to **** with professors sometimes. If you want a good grade, all you have to do is stroke the professor's ego. Try asking questions you already know the answer to and watch the professor light up as she can "educate" you. Then, try playing devil's advocate and watch her reaction as she wishes she could crawl in a hole because you upstaged her. I've done all this. In fact, I have a hard time keeping a straight face when talking to professors because I just play mind games with them.

Damn, I should be a ****ing actor. I've played all types of students and do it on a regular basis. College is like my ****ing playground, but I hate it nonetheless. Yeah, it's made me rather manipulative too. Sorry to ramble, but I hate college. I do well on everything objective, but poorly on the subjective crap....something's gotta give.

And...back to your point. I don't think it's lazy for me not to try hard on this presentation I have to give tomorrow. I'm a rational person and no matter what I do I will get between an A and a C. In the course I will get a B or C. At the end of the semester I'm not really going to care either way. I'm not lazy. I just don't care. I'd rather do other things. I keep my stress level extremely low while I see the rest of the campus developing ulcers over petty crap.

 

[Master Homer]

Yes, that's exactly what I mean by post-conventional. You see everything as the bullsh!t it is and it deters you from doing it even though you should do it. That doesn't mean you aren't smart or your lazy, your just uninterested, because you don't finding meaning in what you do, and rightfully so. As I said before, most people are conventional (they are blind to bullsh!t) and they will find you lazy. Your right, you have to alot of acting to please these types of people. There has to be other ways...

 

[Cheiradawg]

Dude maybe you found something "wrong in the higher power" but that is just because you are a dumbass.

There are lazy people. (In your situtation alot of people call you lazy. You and lazy are the only constant.)

Don't get pissed just yet.

There is meaning in school work even if you can't see it. However reality just kicked in and you found out that there is meaning the hard way. The higher meaning in high school grades is that it shows you are able to handel learning stuff in college. The higher meaning in college is that you learn how to make a living or get into grad school. The higher meaning of a job when you eventually get one is that you are able to support yourself, and/ or do what you really want to do with your life.

Conventional wisdom would have served you well in high school. Sometimes you just have to trust the higher power even if you don't see the meaning behind it. Because no matter how smart anyone is, unless they are a true genius, they can't do anything that is "higher" when they have just graduated high school.

Just as a ticky-tact point: The website says that people have to go from one level to the level directly above it. At any time in your life have you had the "just do it" attitude. Where you did things just to get them done. Did you ever try to furfill your obligation of duty to others? Not to psyco-analyse too much but at 18 I don't see how you could have.

My advice is to get some conventional wisdom. If you don't I suspect reality will contiune to kick you in the ass as you grow up.

I agree 100%. I'm going to post a guide on how post-conventional ("lazy") people can act like conventional people when need be.

I'll give ya a head start. It is called moral skepticism.
Click Here

 

[TheInfamousCBear]

double post

 

[TheInfamousCBear]

Originally posted by Master Homer

Post-Conventional: These people do things because they benefit them. They look for greater meaning in everything they do. Then don't like bureaucracy. They get irate when they have to do something they can't find meaning in. They find wrong in the higher power. There is no “just do it” for post conventional people. Post-conventional people are said to be "lazy".
(Most people on this forum I believe are post-coventional.)

Damn, I was like this at an early age...From elementary school up until high school, I didnt pay that much attention to school...I would pick and choose when I would do my homework and I wouldnt study much if at all cause I felt that some things were unessesary (sp)..I would get horrible grades, but I was much smarter than the kids who would get all A's, only because I wasnt doing my work...I would catch hell for it from my mother...I used to complain about how things are wrong in this world, and she would say that Im too smart for my own good..

I remember when I graduated, I went to a technical school for computers, and when I realized I didnt want to do it anymore, I skipped class so they would kick me out...My mother was gonna cut my head off, lol...Sh1t, the only reason I try to do good in school now is because when I graduate, I can get the fukk out of here and move somewhere fun...Most of the time, if I dont find a reason to do something or I dont want to do it, I wont do it, unless im getting paid...

 

[Cheiradawg]

dp

 

[Cheiradawg]

Homer and One on One. If you don't like what you do then do something else. What excatly do you guys do or want to do? You are blasting everyone else for trying to achieve something so what are you doing with your lives?

This thread is elaborate BS to justify lazyness complete with misinterpertation of a Harvard Ph.D. to back it up.

 

[Master Homer]

Originally posted by Cheiradawg
Dude maybe you found something "wrong in the higher power" but that is just because you are a dumbass.

There are clearly things wrong in the school system and in society. I am not a "dumbass" for realizing this.

There are lazy people. (In your situtation alot of people call you lazy. You and lazy are the only constant.)

I disagree. Lazy is just a term to put on someone who isn't doing what you want them to do.

Don't get pissed just yet.

There is meaning in school work even if you can't see it. However reality just kicked in and you found out that there is meaning the hard way. The higher meaning in high school grades is that it shows you are able to handel learning stuff in college. The higher meaning in college is that you learn how to make a living or get into grad school. The higher meaning of a job when you eventually get one is that you are able to support yourself, and/ or do what you really want to do with your life.

Agreed, the higher your grade is shows how much bullsh!t you can tolerate, which prepares you for more bullsh!t in college, and more bullsh!t in the rest of your life. This way they can weed out all the scary people who can think for themselves. I don't believe GPA and intellegence are corelated though.

Conventional wisdom would have served you well in high school. Sometimes you just have to trust the higher power even if you don't see the meaning behind it. Because no matter how smart anyone is, unless they are a true genius, they can't do anything that is "higher" when they have just graduated high school.

Agreed, if you want to live good you have to please other people, many of which can only be pleased by not being yourself.

Just as a ticky-tact point: The website says that people have to go from one level to the level directly above it. At any time in your life have you had the "just do it" attitude. Where you did things just to get them done. Did you ever try to furfill your obligation of duty to others? Not to psyco-analyse too much but at 18 I don't see how you could have.

Your stating Kohlberg's opinion and comparing it my own. You will find logical errors that way, I agree with Kohlberg's theory but not wholesale. Kohlberg's definition of conventional morality is different then mine. Kohlberg states that a conventional person only does what he does for social acceptence. I contend that a conventional person does what he does because he knows no other way.

My advice is to get some conventional wisdom. If you don't I suspect reality will contiune to kick you in the ass as you grow up.

I don't think it's "wisdom", more of a mentality. You can to some degrees accept conventional thought, but you will always know that your doing something meaningless and it will irate you anyways. My idea is for post-conventional people to try to find meaning in things they think have no meaning, and if they can't find any, make them up or somehow change them so that they are meaningful.

I'll give ya a head start. It is called moral skepticism.
Click Here

I'll give it a read.

 

[One on One]

Originally posted by Cheiradawg
Homer and One on One. If you don't like what you do then do something else. What excatly do you guys do or want to do? You are blasting everyone else for trying to achieve something so what are you doing with your lives?

This thread is elaborate BS to justify lazyness complete with misinterpertation of a Harvard Ph.D. to back it up.

I'm not saying I'm doing anything with my life right now, either, but at least I'm not caught up in the matrix of social institutions.

 

[Cheiradawg]

Originally posted by One on One
I'm not saying I'm doing anything with my life right now, either, but at least I'm not caught up in the matrix of social institutions.

We have a diffrence of opinion. In my opinion the former is worse than the ladder.

 

[PuertoRican_Lover]

Another way to word it is conformist vs. non-conformist - most geniuses and those who excel in their field of work or study tend to be 'non-conformist' - one who does not follow established societal conventions.


con·ven·tion·al

con·ven·tion·al (k?n-ven?sh?-n?l) adjective

1.Based on or in accordance with general agreement, use, or practice; customary: conventional symbols; a conventional form of address.

2.Conforming to established practice or accepted standards; traditional: a conventional church wedding.

3.a. Devoted to or bound by conventions to the point of artificiality; ceremonious. b. Unimaginative; conformist: longed to escape from their conventional, bourgeois lives.

4.Represented, as in a work of art, in simplified or abstract form.

5.Law. Based on consent or agreement; contractual.

6.Of, relating to, or resembling an assembly.

7.Using means other than nuclear weapons or energy: conventional warfare; conventional power plants.

— con·ven?tion·al·ism noun
— con·ven?tion·al·ist noun
— con·ven?tion·al·ly adverb


con·form·ist

con·form·ist (k?n-fôr?mist) noun
A person who uncritically or habitually conforms to the customs, rules, or styles of a group.

adjective
Marked by conformity or convention: “Underneath the image, teenagers today are surprisingly conformist” (Selina S. Guber).

Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products N.V., further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.


Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

 

[Cheiradawg]

Originally posted by Master Homer
There are clearly things wrong in the school system and in society. I am not a "dumbass" for realizing this.

The school system breeds people that can function in a capitalist economy,and not to be free thankers. That is obvious for many reasons including:

1. Confusion- School systems teach algebra, the orbiting of planets, dance, volleyball, the articles of confederation, laws of motion, and band. There is no whole agenda. Everything is in fractions, and violates the natural order of things. Everything is disconnected. In the end kids are left with confusing and the notion that they should accept confusion as their destiny.

2. Class Position- Kids and numbered and filed away in class rooms according to their age and ability. Most can't imagine themselves being anywehre else. They are taught to be content with where they are unless there is a miracle.

3. Emotional Dependency- Kids are taught to base their worth in a pretend chain of command. They are kept in line not by Sargents but checks, minuses, starts, and smile faces. Their nature even down to bowl movements and thurst are held hostage by good behavior- good behavior is the only way to win the approval of the keeper of the hall pass.

4. Intellectual Dependency- Good kids... (wait scratch that) Successful kids do what they are told with out resistance and with a decent show of enthuiasm. Bad kids fight this but they soon learn it is futile. Hell our economy is based on people that wait for an expert to tell them what they need to do. It makes the world go 'round.

5. Provisional Self-respect - Kids are taught their self-respect should depend on expert opinion. They get their allowcated ration of self-respect periodically in the form of report cards.

6. You can't hide- School extends it's graps on kids even outside it's walls. This is called homework. Now kids are controlled even if they try to learn something afterschool.

(and my favorite)
7. Indiffrence- Kids are taught to not care about anything too much but make it appear they do. They have to jump up and down and compete with vigor for their teachers approval. But when the bell rings they are shuffeled to a diffrent work station to repeat the process for a diffrent master. They are turned on and off like a light switch.
If something is important in a class and the bell rings it never gets finished except on an installment plan. This leaves students with the impression that nothing is ever worth finishing. Instead the bell decides when enough is enough. Kids are conditioned to believe that work is never worth anything.

Is this "wrong?" Hell I like it. It produces a source of cheap labor with "work ethic" as determind by the punch clock.

Everyone has to work tho this is a fact of life. You have to play the game if you want to win it.

I disagree. Lazy is just a term to put on someone who isn't doing what you want them to do.

Lazy is when people don't pull their weight in the world. There is a diffrence. But unless you are somebody you are not one who is different. You can't say lazy is just a term. If I don't want A-rod to play for the Yanks I can't call him lazy for doing so.

Agreed, the higher your grade is shows how much bullsh!t you can tolerate, which prepares you for more bullsh!t in college, and more bullsh!t in the rest of your life. This way they can weed out all the scary people who can think for themselves.

You have to cope with the BS for a while atleast, so you can gain the skills to function independently.

I don't believe GPA and intellegence are corelated though.

They sure aren't. The best predictor variable for college GPA is highschool GPA and not SAT scores.

Agreed, if you want to live good you have to please other people, many of which can only be pleased by not being yourself.

Yep. If we would all walk around pleasing ourselves the world would fall apart. In my opinion people should worry about taking care of themselves before they worry about pleasing themselves.
But you point is a fact of life. Noone unless they are somebody is above it.

Your stating Kohlberg's opinion and comparing it my own. You will find logical errors that way, I agree with Kohlberg's theory but not wholesale. Kohlberg's definition of conventional morality is different then mine. Kohlberg states that a conventional person only does what he does for social acceptence. I contend that a conventional person does what he does because he knows no other way.

Ok, but now you are talking about motivation. Why people do what they do.

I don't think it's "wisdom", more of a mentality. You can to some degrees accept conventional thought, but you will always know that your doing something meaningless and it will irate you anyways. My idea is for post-conventional people to try to find meaning in things they think have no meaning, and if they can't find any, make them up or somehow change them so that they are meaningful.

Ok. Personally they way I find meaning in things is that I can see the path from what I do now to what I want to be doing later. Where the wisdom part comes in is that one must follow the rules and play the game until they are powerful enough to strive on their own.

Actually this is alot like stage 6. Respect for univerals principles(the fact you have to play the game in order to survive) and demand for individul conscience (getting what you want out of life).



The world is the way it is and no individual is likely to change it. Accept it for what it is, then use it for what you like.

 

[baracus]

Ivory tower

College is such BS. I still remember getting sick to my stomach every semester from the stress of finals (that continued until the grades were issued). By the time I was a second semester junior, I just stopped obsessing with the stupidity of so-called "higher learning," and instead breezed by with decent grades (and some choice babes) for the remainder of my stay at a certain university in New York. If you don't plan on having a career in medicine, law, or academia, then obsessing with grades is just not f***ing worth it! Universities in the U.S. rob you of any geniune intellectual curiousity, and they force you to conform. It makes me furious knowing that I could've gotten my worthless Ivy League education for free from the public library (but at least I got that piece of paper--I may need to wipe my ass with something when I run out of toilet paper).