Confused as Hell

[AngelEyes]

Former lurker, new poster here.

For many this will probably end up as a TOO LONG; DIDN'T READ but bear with me.

Anyway, I have an odd situation here. About five months back I met this girl. I wanted to go for her, but I had two problems: she had a (terrible) boyfriend and my brother was friends with the boyfriend and was dating her sister. I knew this meant I would be a 'forced friend,' spending time with her while not being able to escalate for fear of ruining my bro's friendship (bros before hos, etc.). Anyway, over the course of the months I got to know her while keeping things on a physical but non-threatening level. You know, teasing, tickling and the like.

She recently broke up with the loser. While doing this she fell into a bit of a depression. Well, actually, that's a bit of an understatement. Anyway, just so we could cheer her up me, my brother, and our 'friend' (I actually hate the guy) took her out for a game of laser tag and a bit of driving around.

While driving around we went up to a sort of overlook. Anyway, my 'friend' went walking off and she went to bring him back, and walking back she seemed to be giggling. I know she said she was "just friends" with him before but I know he's a sort of player and this pissed me off. Fortunately we were all distracted by the arrival of a bear, so we ran off back to her house.

Back at her house she seemed to be spending more time with our 'friend' than the rest of us and this pissed me off even more (Big Mistake #1). She sensed this and dragged me off to talk to her.

She told me that she cared for me and wanted me to talk to her (I'm a pretty reserved guy, for the record). She suspected the reason I was so pissed off was because I had a crush on her. I'm too damn honest for my own good and told her that I did (Big Mistake #2). She gave me the expected "I care about you, but not that way" speech. I went home and decided to let her go.

However, while hanging out with another female friend I heard through a telephone conversation my friend and the girl were having that she was entertaining the prospect of dating the 'friend.' This really pissed me off and I decided that I really needed to get this ***** out of my life. However, after talking to her one more time she told me that she more or less "gave up on love" after her recent break up and she would be willing to get into a relationship, but she was afraid she would be hurt again. Apparently, she has had a history of bad relationships. I then told her that I could be mre than a friend if she would let me (Possible mistake #1).

After this I completely ignored her. I heard from my brother that this was really hurting her, and after a few days I decided that the friendship wasn't worth sacrificing.

I broke the silence and brought her back to my house. I told her that ignoring her was a big mistake on my part (Possible Mistake #2). She told me that she didn't begrudge me and she really cared about me. With all this uncertainty I decided I would test her apparent "willingness" for a relationship (as well as going for the broke) with a kiss (Big Mistake #3).

At first she seemed willing (and even tried to slip in a little tongue) but we broke it off and she told me she wasn't feeling it and didn't care about me that way. So I finally gave in to being friends. What's one girl, anyway?

She gave me a bunch of reasons, including the fact she was afraid she would be hurt, that she would just end up 'using' me (can't figure that one out), that she couldn't be absolutely honest with me, that she had been under a constant barrage of "you're not good enough you'll never be anything, etc." throughout her life, she told me that she didn't feel that she was good enough for me since she had accomplished so little and had no talents, and she promised there was a better girl out there and that I shouldn't waste my time on her (Absolutely Huge Run-On Sentence #1). I interpreted the whole mess as, simply: THIS IS BULL**** I AM TELLING YOU TO SPARE YOUR FEELINGS.

Anyway, I told her that she shouldn't be afraid of a relationship and I was still willing (Possible Mistake #3).

Last night I invited her over just to hang out with me and my bro. Since I was feeling pretty apathetic toward her I decided to work on my kino escalation skills just for the hell of it. While we were watching TV I stroked her gently in increasingly intimate places while breaking it off every once in a while, trying to work on building anticipation. She seemed to be responding, since she began with her legs crossed and facing away from me but ended up with her legs uncrossed and up against one of mine. But this ended with my ****-block of a brother coming in and asking us to go with him for milkshakes.

So we went out for milkshakes and while riding in the backseat with her I worked on hand play. I played it off casually by saying I just wanted to warm her hands up. Again, she seemed to respond.

Then we rented a movie and came back to my house. We cuddled on the couch, switching positions every once in a while. She seemed a little clingy.

Finally, after the movie we got into a tickling fight. I took my practice further and, while tickling, made deliberate but not explicit sexual advances. I brushed my hands against her breasts, played with her ass, got on top of her, and lifted her shirt a little. The most surprising thing was, although she wasn't initiating, she didn't seem to mind.

So we called it a night and went our seperate ways.

Our two families got together to go to a motorcycle show and lunch today. Although she initiated a little casual play she seemed sort of distant and seemed to interact more with my brother than me. I overheard the fact that she and the 'friend' mentioned earlier have been texting back and forth this morning and it irritates me that I don't know the context (however, I heard rumors that the 'friend' had a history of abusing girls and she might not be interested in him because of that).

Anyway, I'm sorry for ranting like this as a first post. Even though I'm not expecting a relationship out of this I'm so confused right now that I need an outside perspective.

 

[john paul]

I read what you had to say and from what i saw your just a friend to her. Yes you did get touchy feely that one night but from what I got from it she doesnt like you.

Be her friend but focus your time on some other girls

 

[AngelEyes]

I read what you had to say and from what i saw your just a friend to her. Yes you did get touchy feely that one night but from what I got from it she doesnt like you.

Be her friend but focus your time on some other girls

Actually, I've been flirting with her close friend for about a week. What's really bothering me is that the aforementioned girl has been giving off mixed signals, much more so than before when she was dead certain we were "just friends."

I know you can sometimes work your way out of the friend zone by making yourself unavailable and distant. My real question is whether I should keep the option of this girl open, and how I could get her out of the friend zone more effectively.

 

[john paul]

Oh yea shes defenently an option in the near future. I would start with exactly what you said,

Make yourself unavailable, maybe with that close friend of hers. If she has even the smallest attraction toward you her jeliousy will amplify it and make her want you.

and the distance you need her to feel will be there when your off hangging out with this new girl.

Basicly next her, and start talking to this friend of hers. Then if she comes back to you asking to be more than friends your good to go with her.

 

[KontrollerX]

The part of your post that made me say "goddammit!" out loud and out of my control in front of my computer monitor as I was reading this is the part where you say you gave in to being friends.

You can't do that with these b!tches.

Friendship is the kiss of death usually.

It is intellectually and morally degrading to accept friendship with a chick in one of these scenarios because it is not at all what you want and it is not true friendship.

It is a chick getting everything that she wants and you getting nothing that you want from her.

And don't give me that bullsh!t that you can simply enjoy her company because from your post you don't want to enjoy her company you want to fvck her and for her to be your girlfriend and for her to be all over you like she is this player women abusing jackass and the only way you are going to accomplish this goal is by playing the old push pull game and the game of making the ho say no and escalating the kino every time you get an alone time opportunity with her.

If she pulls away from you or distances herself you pull away from her hence push pull you say to her you don't think the friendship is a good idea and you cut contact until she starts saying what you want to hear such as I want you AngelEyes, lets fvck AngelEyes, I want you as my boyfriend AngelEyes and none of this crap about not wanting you in that way.

When you do a take away and cut contact a chick can develop feelings for you just from that usually stemming from her need to be in control and always desired in her life but it can also be a triggering of feelings for you that she didn't know she had or was repressing because she really did have a conscience about not wanting to hurt a nice guy so denied you a relationship knowing how badly it might end to go forward or she may really think she is too worthless to be with a good guy but of course all of this is bullsh!t to you and rightly so.

So in order to break through this crap once again I say you must play push pull games and do take aways and cut off all communications when she tries to limit contact with you. You have to beat her at her own stupid game and establish value and establish that you won't be used or played or relugated to second best status by her. She will treat and regard you as a man if she is to have any dealings with you at all.

And I'm sorry if my post came off as overly harsh to you and it is encouraging to see that you realize you have made mistakes that you have listed in your opening post.

Actually reading my post over I want to apologize again lol twice it was so harsh.

The anger really wasn't directed at you or suggesting you wouldn't follow our advice its more my anger at these stupid games as I know you are a much better guy for her than the player guy who "abuses women" but she's likely so fvcked in the head from esteem issues she'll go be a slave to this loser unless you outgame her and him.

Good luck brother.

To cut through chick's stupidity sometimes you need it lol.

 

[AngelEyes]

Actually, that's the kind of kick in the head I needed. Thanks, Kontroller.

 

[AngelEyes]

****. . .

Here's a bit of an update on the situation.

The friend of hers was alright, but it just didn't work out.

So, I did a takeaway on the chick. For two weeks I dropped almost all contact, up to the point of nearly completely ignoring her. She started off disappointed, went to sad, and ended up pissed. I could by the end that she was desperate for my attention. When her friends asked why I wasn't talking to her, I usually responded with "I'm busy" or "I don't know." (MISTAKE)

When last Saturday rolled around, a group of friends, her, and I went salsa dancing. It was alright, but after the actual class was over I just went and sat down (I was tired, and frankly I didn't want to really be there). So she came up and wanted to dance with me. I accepted. We danced, plenty of kino, plenty of close-in mouth-to-ear rapport.

Afterwards she confronted me. She said that not talking to her and mostly ignoring her, then coming back and being nice to her was confusing. She told me that someone had told her that the takeaway was my way of "moving on" after the LJBF (which isn't entirely false) and called bull**** on that. Then told me that I meant a lot to her, she thought I couldn't see that she asked me whether I wanted her out of my life or wanted her to be a friend. I didn't answer (MISTAKE), because this wasn't what I wanted to hear and because we were cut short by a situation involving her mom, a belligerent drunk, and the mom's 9mm. (Don't worry, no charges were pressed).

After that I was too busy to talk to her Sunday. When Monday came around, guess what certain player-type she ran into the arms of?

Right now, I'm pissed. I'd normally next her and move on before this become a terminal case of oneitis, but I absolutely hate this bastard. I know he's going to use, abuse, brainwash and hurt her, a lot more than my takeaway ever did. Everyone is telling her that she shouldn't date him. He's an idiot who is doing nothing with his life, and is honestly pretty cowardly and petty. I really want to kick his ass, but in this situation that'll prove nothing but the fact that one of us is a better fighter than the other, and losing control is something I don't want to do.

This means war. Not for her. I don't care if I win her in the end. It's been nothing but games with her. But I'm taking a stand against this guy once and for all. I'm beating him at his own game.

So right now I have several options. Today I took the initiative and grabbed her while she was hanging with him, semi-isolated her, hugged her and flirted a bit. But right now, I'm not sure what I should do. I don't have the experience you older DJ's have.

 

[AngelEyes]

Sh!t. . .

You know what? **** it. I'm not wasting another breath on her. I'm going to kick that guy's ass, and that will be the end of that chapter.

Time to move on.

 

[KontrollerX]

Well despite having decided what to do I just want to say I don't think you made a mistake by not answering her question AngelEyes.

In fact it may of been just the right action to take.

She gave you a series of two sh*t options to choose from...

1. Yet another LJBF lame been there done that fest.

2. Move on and get her out of your life.

Both choices on her part were garbage and just her making a power play to see where she stood with you. Had you answered you might of said you wanted to keep her in your life without mentioning her friends garbage to try and smooth your way back in there but she would of taken it as a victory for her shattered ego and placed you snuggly in the friend box and reacted as such if you tried to advance with her later through kino and whatnot.

The situation in my opinion was a saved by the bell moment minus Zack and Slater lol.

Well because of the drunk guy saving you from answering I mean.

So yeah all that I just said is advice to keep in mind for future reference.

The girl was banking on you to go for some unwinnable variaton of option 1 but you didn't get to answer. The correct answer by the way was either to not answer which was the action you were forced to take or to look at her plainly and say plainly in your own words option 2 but really when a chick is pulling a bs power play like this I think its perfectly alright if you were to look at her like she's retarded when asking a question like that and say "whatever" or ask her if she's high. Not in a meanspirited way mind you but a light hearted tired way where you are not willing to deal with any bullsh!t at the moment much less her's because you are in need of sleep lol.

As for kicking that guy's ass have at it but of course remember in the situations where you want to win the girl back doing this is never an option and if a girl asks you to do that under the guise you'll win her back its a red flag and she is an automatic next as she is asking you to put your health in danger to fight her battles while she sits back and looks innocent.

In closing I give you props for moving on soldier.

 

[AngelEyes]

Yeah, she was a wonderful girl while I knew her, but I'm tired of these damn games.

I need some time off. Even just building rapport is too much for me right now.

But just for future reference, how would you have continued from where I left off?

 

[Chris72b9]

Yeah, she was a wonderful girl while I knew her, but I'm tired of these damn games.

When you fight the guy make sure someone's handy with a camera phone.

Youtube!

Nah, just kiddin' man. Just trying to lighten you up a bit. Now that you've decided to move on, don't let the petty sh*t get to you.

 

[AngelEyes]

Now's she's in "serious like" with him.

Yep, I think I'm in hell.

 

[KontrollerX]

For future reference I would make the exact same decision you have made to next her and probably fight the guy.

Not for revenge on her but because I hate certain type of guys and react to them with violence.

I admit this is a remnant from my AFC days I need to remove as I try to follow the DJ advice that I give as closely as possible so this is one of those times I'll tell you that doing what you plan to do is what I would do but a true blue total 100% DJ wouldn't even fight the guy.

I believe a true and pure DJ only fights when it comes to a competition of some sort like MMA or in his own self defense and is offered no other option.

The true DJ path is probably almost like the spiritual side and path one takes for most martial arts.

That is if you're not just in it to learn fighting skills lol.

 

[UltimateScoundrel]

Anyway, I have an odd situation here. About five months back I met this girl. I wanted to go for her, but I had two problems: she had a (terrible) boyfriend and my brother was friends with the boyfriend and was dating her sister. I knew this meant I would be a 'forced friend,' spending time with her while not being able to escalate for fear of ruining my bro's friendship (bros before hos, etc.). Anyway, over the course of the months I got to know her while keeping things on a physical but non-threatening level. You know, teasing, tickling and the like.

So far, so good. Not an ideal situation by any means, but you're doing well with it.

She recently broke up with the loser. While doing this she fell into a bit of a depression. Well, actually, that's a bit of an understatement. Anyway, just so we could cheer her up me, my brother, and our 'friend' (I actually hate the guy) took her out for a game of laser tag and a bit of driving around.

While driving around we went up to a sort of overlook. Anyway, my 'friend' went walking off and she went to bring him back, and walking back she seemed to be giggling. I know she said she was "just friends" with him before but I know he's a sort of player and this pissed me off. Fortunately we were all distracted by the arrival of a bear, so we ran off back to her house.

Back at her house she seemed to be spending more time with our 'friend' than the rest of us and this pissed me off even more (Big Mistake #1). She sensed this and dragged me off to talk to her.

Not necessarily a mistake. I'd be pissed too if some douchebag was horning in on MY girl. You might not be dating her, but you've been putting in some time, brother.

She told me that she cared for me and wanted me to talk to her (I'm a pretty reserved guy, for the record). She suspected the reason I was so pissed off was because I had a crush on her. I'm too damn honest for my own good and told her that I did (Big Mistake #2). She gave me the expected "I care about you, but not that way" speech. I went home and decided to let her go.

Not as big a mistake as you think. You were pretty much hosed. She knew, so lying would've only made you seem like a fool. At least you can admit where you stand.

However, while hanging out with another female friend I heard through a telephone conversation my friend and the girl were having that she was entertaining the prospect of dating the 'friend.' This really pissed me off and I decided that I really needed to get this ***** out of my life. However, after talking to her one more time she told me that she more or less "gave up on love" after her recent break up and she would be willing to get into a relationship, but she was afraid she would be hurt again. Apparently, she has had a history of bad relationships. I then told her that I could be mre than a friend if she would let me (Possible mistake #1).

This is a definite mistake. People who are dating should share control and power in a relationship. You basically handed it all to her and let her know that she is the prize as far as you are concerned.

After this I completely ignored her. I heard from my brother that this was really hurting her, and after a few days I decided that the friendship wasn't worth sacrificing.

It's petty, but sometimes that's the right way to play it. Let them know that they can't fvck with your heart.

I broke the silence and brought her back to my house. I told her that ignoring her was a big mistake on my part (Possible Mistake #2). She told me that she didn't begrudge me and she really cared about me. With all this uncertainty I decided I would test her apparent "willingness" for a relationship (as well as going for the broke) with a kiss (Big Mistake #3).

#2 isn't a mistake. It's alright to apologize. It doesn't make you weak or spineless. Ignoring a friend is a **** thing to do, but you had to do it. An apology isn't unwarranted.

#3 was also not a mistake. She knows you are interested in her, you need to find out if she is romantically interested in you.

At first she seemed willing (and even tried to slip in a little tongue) but we broke it off and she told me she wasn't feeling it and didn't care about me that way. So I finally gave in to being friends. What's one girl, anyway?

She gave me a bunch of reasons, including the fact she was afraid she would be hurt, that she would just end up 'using' me (can't figure that one out), that she couldn't be absolutely honest with me, that she had been under a constant barrage of "you're not good enough you'll never be anything, etc." throughout her life, she told me that she didn't feel that she was good enough for me since she had accomplished so little and had no talents, and she promised there was a better girl out there and that I shouldn't waste my time on her (Absolutely Huge Run-On Sentence #1). I interpreted the whole mess as, simply: THIS IS BULL**** I AM TELLING YOU TO SPARE YOUR FEELINGS.

I would interpret this all to mean a few things.

1. She is sexually attracted to you (evidenced by willing return of kiss.)
2. She is not sure about her romantic interest in you
3. She is quite likely very insecure.
4. She might not be ready to have a meaningful relationship with anyone until she gets some self-worth. You really could do better.

Anyway, I told her that she shouldn't be afraid of a relationship and I was still willing (Possible Mistake #3).

Yup. You fvcked up.

Last night I invited her over just to hang out with me and my bro. Since I was feeling pretty apathetic toward her I decided to work on my kino escalation skills just for the hell of it. While we were watching TV I stroked her gently in increasingly intimate places while breaking it off every once in a while, trying to work on building anticipation. She seemed to be responding, since she began with her legs crossed and facing away from me but ended up with her legs uncrossed and up against one of mine. But this ended with my ****-block of a brother coming in and asking us to go with him for milkshakes.

So we went out for milkshakes and while riding in the backseat with her I worked on hand play. I played it off casually by saying I just wanted to warm her hands up. Again, she seemed to respond.

Then we rented a movie and came back to my house. We cuddled on the couch, switching positions every once in a while. She seemed a little clingy.

Finally, after the movie we got into a tickling fight. I took my practice further and, while tickling, made deliberate but not explicit sexual advances. I brushed my hands against her breasts, played with her ass, got on top of her, and lifted her shirt a little. The most surprising thing was, although she wasn't initiating, she didn't seem to mind.

So we called it a night and went our seperate ways.

Just when I think you've gone and fvcked yourself, you pull one out. This interaction indicates she is sexually interested in you in a strong way. It has no reference whatsoever to her willingness to date you, but she does want to jump forcibly onto your swollen penis.

Our two families got together to go to a motorcycle show and lunch today. Although she initiated a little casual play she seemed sort of distant and seemed to interact more with my brother than me. I overheard the fact that she and the 'friend' mentioned earlier have been texting back and forth this morning and it irritates me that I don't know the context (however, I heard rumors that the 'friend' had a history of abusing girls and she might not be interested in him because of that).

Anyway, I'm sorry for ranting like this as a first post. Even though I'm not expecting a relationship out of this I'm so confused right now that I need an outside perspective.

She doesn't know who she is, what she wants, or who she wants, and does not deserve to date you. If you can honestly fool around with her without getting attached, go for it, but I don't think, from what I read, that would be possible.

 

[AngelEyes]

Fvck. I know she's going to confront me about this eventually. But she's so "in love" with him it makes me sick. She put me through hell and keeps dragging me through the dirt.

But the good news is, last night I did a reframe and got IOI's from her fvcking cute sister! At this point, I think everything is fair game.

God, I'm drunk.