Confronting games

[BipedGod]

Give me some opinions on confronting women on game playing, my situation is, little tricks to get me to chase her, I can see them big time, so far I have not said anything nor have I allowed her sh*t to disrupt me, I do what I want to do, I'm kinda like hey what have you been up to for the last week or two, there is a strong attraction between us but no commitment of any kind. What I want to avoid is her thinking I am some dumb sh*t who hasn't a clue.

 

[jophil28]

What I want to avoid is her thinking I am some dumb sh*t who hasn't a clue.

It is not important what she thinks of you -it IS important that you think well of yourself. This means that you take care of your own needs FIRST- health fitness and a good work ethic.

The best tips that I can offer to deal with a woman's "games" are these.

1. Be mindful that the games will never end - Women do this because it is what women do..

2. Are her games just "cute" or are they causing you problems ?
If they piss you off, do this - either ignore them as if they did not just happen OR look at her with a sly smirk ,say nothing and walk away SLOWLY shaking your head. If you do this a couple times she will start to get the message -
I have had women run after me pleading with me to tell them "what is wrong" ( more smirks from me)

Forget all that girly counseling advice about "open communication" . IF that was what mattered to women they would do just that. How many OPEN discussions have you ever had with a woman which led to resolving a difficulty between the two of you ? Yep, none, right ?
Men resolve difficulties with other men via open discussion, not women. . For some reason it never works with women and I suspect it is because women are rarely willing to give ground or compromise in negotiation.
You need to remember that women THINK that their "games" are so important in getting their own way. They favor games over open communication because they believe that games will bring the result that they want WITHOUT their having to give anything in return . THis is rear-door raiding. They also do not understand or care that their games piss you off .
Women are generally not the sharpest scalpel in the OR , so you need to outplay them when they start in with their games.
The worst thing that you can do is to call them on their mind games and get all pissy. Curiously they will feel rewarded by the attention that you are giving them in anger. The games will still continue when they feel safe enough to start them up again..

The SOP in this situation is to reward desireable behavior and ignore or punish poor or undesired behavior. The punishment that hurts most, and digs deepest for women, is slow or silent withdrawal of your affection and attention. These rewards are ONLY to be returned to her if or when her behavior improves.


Read that again "Silent withdrawal of affection".

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Give me some opinions on confronting women on game playing, my situation is, little tricks to get me to chase her, I can see them big time, so far I have not said anything nor have I allowed her sh*t to disrupt me, I do what I want to do, I'm kinda like hey what have you been up to for the last week or two, there is a strong attraction between us but no commitment of any kind. What I want to avoid is her thinking I am some dumb sh*t who hasn't a clue.

You don't have to play y'know.

 

[BipedGod]

I'm not at all pissed or upset about the "tactics" she does, like I said in my initial post I do what I want anyway, a woman has to have respect for a man in order to give it up and I think if I just stand around like a dumb sh*t she will think I'm stupid...I know many think who cares what she thinks, well, what she thinks is what she responds to, if she thinks I'm a dumb sh*t I might as well keep my hands in my pockets.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I'm not at all pissed or upset about the "tactics" she does, like I said in my initial post I do what I want anyway, a woman has to have respect for a man in order to give it up and I think if I just stand around like a dumb sh*t she will think I'm stupid...I know many think who cares what she thinks, well, what she thinks is what she responds to, if she thinks I'm a dumb sh*t I might as well keep my hands in my pockets.

So what would she think about a guy who didn't respond to her "tactics?"

 

[mrRuckus]

The SOP in this situation is to reward desireable behavior and ignore or punish poor or undesired behavior. The punishment that hurts most, and digs deepest for women, is slow or silent withdrawal of your affection and attention. These rewards are ONLY to be returned to her if or when her behavior improves.


Read that again "Silent withdrawal of affection".

How do they know necessarily why they are being punished? How is this conveyed?

I really do want to know.

 

[jophil28]

The strategy is not really to make then feel like they are being 'punished'. The point of partial withdrawal is to get them to feel neglected and unappeciated or unloved following an incident of bad behavior on her part.

You will never straighten out a woman's behavior by "explaining " to them why you are annoyed. Most women have a belief system which absolves them of any fault or wrongdoing, so telling them how they f''ked up is not going tp pierce this stonewall of a mindset.
You have to work deep down at the emotional level and treat a misbehaving woman like you would a child. How ? By incrementally removing elements of her rewards from your relationship as soon as her objectional behavior occurs. In other words she learns that if she does behavior 'A' ,then you respond with behavior 'Z' until she learns that 'A' brings the pain of 'Z'.
The theory is that when her perceived losses become greater that the benefits of the old behavior, she will switch behavior.
And this point is important - 'Z' needs to hurt her emotionally. Many times it will also inconvenience you too, but that is the price of change.
The desired change will not become established on the first attempt.
IT takes a few repetitions until her changed behavior becomes her habitual behavior.

I agree with VU , there are no guarantees that a woman will ever become a great woman either. Some are too damaged or too selfish.

 

[mrRuckus]

By incrementally removing elements of her rewards from your relationship as soon as her objectional behavior occurs. In other words she learns that if she does behavior 'A' ,then you respond with behavior 'Z' until she learns that 'A' brings the pain of 'Z'.

Well that was my point. How does she connect the dots that A even caused Z? I don't think they even realize it most of the time.


For all she knows i'm just blowin her off because i feel like it.

 

[jophil28]

Well that was my point. How does she connect the dots that A even caused Z? I don't think they even realize it most of the time.


For all she knows i'm just blowin her off because i feel like it.

It does not really matter whether she "gets it" or not initially - your withdrawal will IMPROVE her general overall behavior. She will sense that "something is not OK" with you and women will habitually try to seek your approval and 'close the gap' by acting more accomodating. Any 'princess' crap usually drops off for a while.
The withdrawal puts you in control, rather that you be towed along by her bizarre actions. There is a case to be made for talking to her about what is annoying you, BUT you need to only do this when she is really receptive and that means you need to wait until she is almost begging for you to spill your guts. Then she is most ready to hear you.

Try this strategy out -give it a test drive and post a field report.

 

[potato]

Women play games? I thought that it was guys that were supposed to game women. Yet here I read that women play games and jophil28 tells us how to play games to counteract games that women play.

I always thought that the reason we hang out with women was because they are fun to play with. Isn’t that the game we should be playing?

 

[ketostix]

Women play games? I thought that it was guys that were supposed to game women. Yet here I read that women play games and jophil28 tells us how to play games to counteract games that women play.

I always thought that the reason we hang out with women was because they are fun to play with. Isn’t that the game we should be playing?

You have to be a woman. you're always defending them in ways that would be impossible for someone who is actually male. Games=manipulation, and not playing in the sense of laughing and jokes. Women naturally play games (manipulation) and are naturally skilled at it. Men generally say what they mean and mean what they say, and don't really care for a bunch of silly BS. Men play games out of necessity to increase attraction, not because they get a kick out of it. Women will play games for no purpose other than to hook a guy for validation who they have no real interest in even.

 

[ketostix]

The strategy is not really to make then feel like they are being 'punished'. The point of partial withdrawal is to get them to feel neglected and unappeciated or unloved .

You will never straighten out a woman's behavior by "explaining " to them why you are annoyed. Most women have a belief system which absolves them of any fault or wrongdoing, so telling them how they f''ked up is not going tp pierce this stone wall of a mindset.
You have to work deep down at the emotional level and treat a misbehaving woman like you would a child. How ? By incrementally removing elements of her rewards from your relationship as soon as her objectional behavior occurs. In other words she learns that if she does behavior 'A' ,then you respond with behavior 'Z' until she learns that 'A' brings the pain of 'Z'.
The theory is that when her perceived losses become greater that the benefits of the old behavior, she will switch behavior.
And this point is important - 'Z' needs to hurt her emotionally. Many times it will also inconvenience you too, but that is the price of change.
The desired change will not become established on the first attempt.
IT takes a few repetitions until her changed behavior becomes her habitual behavior.

I agree with VU , there are no guarantees that a woman will ever become a great woman either. Some are too damaged or too selfish.

I think this is great advice. Telling a woman how she's wrong just opens the door to more games by her. But replying with a take-away it's the same principle as using mystery. The'r own imagination will conjure up reason of what she might have done wrong. Heck, she might even think of some things you weren't even aware of that she was doing wrong lol.

 

[Luthor Rex]

I hate you jophil!!! Really, I do!

Forget all that girly counseling advice about "open communication" . IF that was what mattered to women they would do just that. How many OPEN discussions have you ever had with a woman which led to resolving a difficulty between the two of you ? Yep, none, right ?
Men resolve difficulties with other men via open discussion, not women. . For some reason it never works with women and I suspect it is because women are rarely willing to give ground or compromise in negotiation.
You need to remember that women THINK that their "games" are so important in getting their own way. They favor games over open communication because they believe that games will bring the result that they want WITHOUT their having to give anything in return . THis is rear-door raiding. They also do not understand or care that their games piss you off .
Women are generally not the sharpest scalpel in the OR , so you need to outplay them when they start in with their games.
The worst thing that you can do is to call them on their mind games and get all pissy. Curiously they will feel rewarded by the attention that you are giving them in anger. The games will still continue when they feel safe enough to start them up again..

Oh you bastard! Then you go on to say this:

You will never straighten out a woman's behavior by "explaining " to them why you are annoyed. Most women have a belief system which absolves them of any fault or wrongdoing, so telling them how they f''ked up is not going tp pierce this stone wall of a mindset.

I hate you because... well... because you're right. I have witnessed all of these things first-hand in women and these are the exact things which have tipped the scales and almost pushed me over into full-blown misogyny. Thankfully I remembered what Obi-wan said about not "giving in to hate"... I think the Stoics and the Buddha had something to say about that as well...

Anyhow, I really hate the fact that everything you've said here rings so very true. I notice this kind of sh!t when women do it and I can't stand it. I do see how your 'training' methods would probably work most of the time and if I ever really need to I'll use them. But by and large it's because of this kind of crap that I can't commit the kind of intellectual suicide required to respect women who display this kind of behavior.

The most insane part to me is that life would be so much better for everyone if above-board communication were the norm. Well... life would be better for honest people, and a lot worse for lying manipulators...

It's funny, but my lady co-workers recently told me that I should never get married because I wouldn't let a woman 'take control of the relationship'. I told them "hell no I wouldn't!" So now they aren't going to introduce me to any of their friends... oh darn...

*sigh*

 

[jophil28]

I hate you jophil!!! Really, I do!



Oh you bastard! Then you go on to say this:



I hate you because... well... because you're right.

Ah ! I feel all warm - this is high praise indeed from brother Luthor.

 

[Bonhomme]

you need to outplay them when they start in with their games.

The SOP in this situation is to reward desireable behavior and ignore or punish poor or undesired behavior. The punishment that hurts most, and digs deepest for women, is slow or silent withdrawal of your affection and attention. These rewards are ONLY to be returned to her if or when her behavior improves.

Read that again "Silent withdrawal of affection".

You don't have to play y'know.

The above just about sums up your options: Have fun with it or opt out.

 

[potato]

You have to be a woman. you're always defending them in ways that would be impossible for someone who is actually male. Games=manipulation, and not playing in the sense of laughing and jokes. Women naturally play games (manipulation) and are naturally skilled at it. Men generally say what they mean and mean what they say, and don't really care for a bunch of silly BS. Men play games out of necessity to increase attraction, not because they get a kick out of it. Women will play games for no purpose other than to hook a guy for validation who they have no real interest in even.

Generally if someone is trying to manipulate you then they see you as the weaker one. Is not the game that is taught in the seduction community little more than manipulation with the idea that women are inherently inferior? Even the fun and games part, like C&F is not even really for fun but just another manipulation trick. How can one truly have fun if everything one says has to follow a script, has to have a purpose, is concerned with manipulation?

The gist of the thread is that the OP asks what he can do (read manipulate) to get the girl to follow along with his manipulation of her, without her manipulating back. The responses all tend to further attempts at manipulating the girl. Yet the popular opinion here is that it is the girl who is being manipulative.

 

[JackPrescott]

I'm not at all pissed or upset about the "tactics" she does, like I said in my initial post I do what I want anyway, a woman has to have respect for a man in order to give it up and I think if I just stand around like a dumb sh*t she will think I'm stupid...I know many think who cares what she thinks, well, what she thinks is what she responds to, if she thinks I'm a dumb sh*t I might as well keep my hands in my pockets.

If she wants to play games, before she spreads her legs for you, so be it. If she wants to play games, and has no intention of letting you have her in the bedroom....."NEXT"

 

[Mr. Me]

Potato, everything, by definition, can be said to be manipulation. Manipulation is attempting to elicit a certain response/action from someone. It's NOT a dirty word.

When I stop a stranger on the street and say, "Excuse me, but would you please direct me to Main Street?" That's manipulation, as I'm trying to get someone to give me directions and I'm using social graces, such as "excuse me and please and thank you" to get them to respond. Same with asking someone to "please pass the butter" or "do you have the time?".

It IS manipulation, and it's not natural, it's an act, because we could go up to these very same strangers and simply demand our needs, just like when we were infants and cried out that we were hungry when we wanted to be fed. "Hey YOU!", we could say, "Tell me how to get to Main Street!" but that wouldn't likely achieve the intended aim, right? We learn that. We learn how we must act and what we must do in order to hopefully get the desired outcome.

We don't go up to our boss and say, "I really hate working for you. You're quite a jerk. Now, give me more money in my paycheck." No! We learn how to negotiate, and successful negotiation is part manipulation. We have to make the party across the table believe that they are winning for them to give us what we want.

In interpersonal relationships, we have desired outcomes as well.

In this case, BipedGod's gal is using some sort of such dynamics to elicit him to draw closer to her. That's not the problem, as I see it. She wants him.

The problem is, that he believes that by him not letting her know she's using tactics that he'll be perceived as being a "dumb sh*t who hasn't a clue".

The issue then, is really more about him and his *projecting* this negative self-image upon her, as if she would think it, this belief he has about how she'd negatively perceive him, and why he'd think that way, then it is about her and whatever she's actually thinking (which, since she's trying to get him to chase her, may be more like she thinks very highly of him, rather than thinking he's stupid).

Whether she's acting consciously or not, she's responding to his being distant. The best way to respond when a partner distances, is to stay distant yourself. Otherwise, this push/pull dance never ends. She'll more likely either give up or draw close to you, if you keep distant.

No "confrontation" needed. That's useless. She may not even be aware of what she's doing, as it's normal for her. Or she could deny it. Or argue with you over it. Or claim it's because you are distant or... Actions, not words, work better. Exactly what you were doing, BipedGod, i.e., the not responding to it, not acknowledging it, not letting it interfere with your life, is exactly the right thing to do. As I wrote above, remaining independent and keeping space is the way to go.

Sometimes, NOT doing anything is the desirable option. Not everything needs an action taken.

The only thing you should do is change your opinion about how it makes you appear to her: You're only a "dumb sh*t" - if you believe you are.

 

[KontrollerX]

The difference between Manipulation and Persuasion is described well by this answer on it I found from a website...

"Manipulation aims at control; not cooperation. It always results in a lose-lose situation. Persuasion, on the other hand, always builds the self-esteem of the other party. It treats the other person as a responsible and self-directing individual. Thus, the other person is more likely to act as such."

Also for my own opinion of the two I will say that manipulation is rooted in deception and lying and persuasion is simply a person believing that their way is the best way and trying to go about describing to the other person how their way would benefit the other person greatly bringing that other person over to their side.

Now if the person doing the persuading resorts to lying to try and bring the other person over to their side then it becomes manipulation and ceases to be persuasion so in my assessment of the two persuasion is based on honesty and manipulation is based on lying and deceit.

 

[mrRuckus]

It does not really matter whether she "gets it" or not initially - your withdrawal will IMPROVE her general overall behavior.

Oh, that does make a lot of sense. She'll just monitor her behavior more closely in general to avoid negative consequences even when she doesn't realize exactly what's causing the consequences in the first place. So she's forced to improve everything! haha...

thanks.

She will sense that "something is not OK" with you and women will habitually try to seek your approval and 'close the gap' by acting more accomodating. Any 'princess' crap usually drops off for a while.
The withdrawal puts you in control, rather that you be towed along by her bizarre actions. There is a case to be made for talking to her about what is annoying you, BUT you need to only do this when she is really receptive and that means you need to wait until she is almost begging for you to spill your guts. Then she is most ready to hear you.

Try this strategy out -give it a test drive and post a field report.

I think this depends on a lot on her already being somewhat attached to you. I mean if i knew a girl for 3 days and she says something b1tchy and i just withdraw attention she'll just be like "whatever" and assume my withdrawal of attention was just disinterest in her.

Sorry; that paragraph sounded like a 15 year old girl wrote it.

I have done what you say on women who are interested in me. No response from me starts getting me "sorry" and "are u mad" type questions.

Hell, just last night some girl i was talking to for a few min on aim said "fvck u" to me for no apparent reason and i just said "ok i'm going to go" and she basically reiterated what she said saying i was mean to her and i just stopped talking... hours later after i was already in bed I get a message "hi sweetie how are you?" Haha, suddenly all nice. Of course I still didn't reply. Fvck that.