confidence or no confidence

[mrfixit]

I would like to open a new thread on confidence because there are lots of questions I have regarding this in respect to women. It is frequently said that women are attracted to high self-confidence but I would like to ask some questions to everyone on the board. Perhaps you all can answer my questions.

The first problem is the problem of power vs. self confidence.
The second problem is womens ability to detect real confidence.

Let me use the classic "Fraternity Boy/Gangbanger" example

Lets assume the following is true:
People who are not self-confident depend excessively on the approval of others in order to feel good about themselves

This would mean most of the guys who join fraternities in college, all the bad boys who drink beer, use girls, party like mad, and get real popular. This would also include all the gangbangers that join gangs. In both of these instances we have guys who join a crew of people, in order to gain social acceptance and approval. They do things like shoot people or throw big parties in order to get approval from their other peers. They try to outdo one another by gambling or seeing who can down more beers. They are constantly trying to outdo one another in an attempt to prove their greatness. They need to hang around their brothers or in large groups because they are too afraid to operate by themselves and be a loner. Fraternity boys and gangbangers, judging by all the actions above, truly lack self confidence. This is why gangbangers are out dealing drugs and not believing in themselves to get a real career and job. They think they arent good enough and nothing is out there for them. Fraternity boys take simple econ and business courses and cheat on tests. They dont believe they can do well in school, they avoid challenging coursework like Physics and Calculus. They collect tests from past years so they can cheat and float through tests.

All these things indicate a very low level of self-confidence. Yet women ALWAYS go for these types. The hot ones too. So my first problem is that I am trying to determine which is valued more to women: Self Confidence vs. Power?

What does everyone think? If we took two males, twins, both good looking. Every attribute is the same, except one is a frat boy or tough guy gangbanger who deals coke, and the other is a straight and narrow independent Columbia student. Do you think power would win over self confidence?

Which brings me to the second problem, if more girls go to men of power versus men of confidence, then is this because women are failing to understand what real confidence is and they really CANT see through fake confidence? Or it this because power is more important than confidence in the overall survival scheme.

To make things more complex, what if we compare these three:

highly talented, no confidence, no power
no talent, highly confident, no power
no talent, no confidence, highly powerful

Which would win?

And can anyone offer some insight into explaining these problems I have stumbled upon.

 

[undesputable]

Originally posted by mrfixit
highly talented, no confidence, no power
no talent, highly confident, no power
no talent, no confidence, highly powerful
Which would win?

i think that all traits are very closly correlated. if youre highly talented thats going to feed your confidence and when youre cofident you feel powerful. If your confident you feel powerful which would make you talented in something you love. if youre highly powerful, thats got to be some sort of a talent which would in turn give you confidence.

but i think the highly talented is going to be the better one, bc he will have confidence and power...If your powerful or or very confident that doesnt really mean that youre super gifted or very talented at something, but most times it will.

 

[HereToImprove]

As a former fraternity man, I take offense to your assertion that we lack self worth and are tantamount to "gangbangers". I took business courses because that is what I was interested in (I got an A in Calc though, anyway), I was in a committed relationship for 90% of my Greek life, I never got so much as an underage drinking ticket, and I happen to like to gamble with friends (honing a skill that makes me about 15K a year on the side now). I also happen to like hanging out on my own at times, and I am just starting to learn the beauty of sarging solo.

Don't make stupid generalizations based on a movie you may have seen or one guy you saw at a bar one time.

 

[Bradshaw]

The major flaw in your logic is viewing things as absolutes or ‘one or the other’.

“we have guys who join a crew of people, in order to gain social acceptance and approval.”

“They need to hang around their brothers or in large groups because they are too afraid to operate by themselves and be a loner.”

Just because people are social, and enjoy human interaction, does not mean that they have low self-confidence. Perhaps it would be better (and more accurate) to say that these people have high ‘social confidence’.

Fraternity boys take simple econ and business courses….

Some of my friends who are about to go to grad school for business (MBA) would love to debate you about this statement.

All these things indicate a very low level of self-confidence. Yet women ALWAYS go for these types. The hot ones too. So my first problem is that I am trying to determine which is valued more to women: Self Confidence vs. Power?

It is not ‘one or the other’. You need both. You also need confidence in many things in life, not just school work.

..and the other is a straight and narrow independent Columbia student

Read the DJ Bible (the link is at the top of the screen). Focus particularly on the ‘Nice guy vs. Jerk’ section. Once you have read and understood this section it should become clearer as to why most girls go for the type of guy that you despise.

To make things more complex, what if we compare these three:

highly talented, no confidence, no power
no talent, highly confident, no power
no talent, no confidence, highly powerful

Which would win?

ANSWER: none of the above.

You are only as strong as your weakest link. Do not view it as confidence vs. power, because you can (and should) have both.

 

[upcomingDJ]

power is part of confidence... i break down confidence into parts, and that is this:

power: dominance, status, money

social rewards: affection, praise, respect

ability/performance

appearance

morality

'outside' factors: material possesions, knowing famous people, being around successful people

 

[OklyDokly]

I'm signed up to Vic Johnson's As A Man Thinketh newsletter, and he made an interesting point about self confidence today. He compared self-confidence to self-esteem and said that it was important to draw the distinction.

Self-confidence is how you feel you can apply yourself to certain situations. In other words it's how confident you feel you can achieve what you want to achieve, or 'a belief in an ability we possess.' The thing about self-confidence in a person is it varies from situation to situation. For example if you've never climbed before, just try throwing yourself on a 100m crag and claiming at 50m that you're self-confident in your ability to climb. On the other hand a great climber may not feel confident about women.

Self-esteem goes much deeper and is how you value yourself. This is the true measure of integrity, and so is much more important than confidence.

You can think of it as a Yin and Yang thing I suppose. Self-confidence is an external thing which brushes off onto others, self-esteem is an internal thing which brushes off into yourself. I believe that while women can recognise self-confidence in the short term, self-esteem is something which women will look for in the long run, and it is likely to take some time for them to discover whether you truly have it.

 

[ImSoHorny005]

Originally posted by mrfixit
highly confident, no power
no confidence, highly powerful

Talent doesn't have much to do with your "social" confidence. Well, I personally don't believe there is someone who is confident* and doesn't have power. The latter is also hard to imagine and I also doubt someone like that exists.

* I mean the REAL confidence. There are lots of people that THINK they're confident, but it's just a fake confidence gained from sites like this. They think they can get any girl they want just because they read this forum (yes, several months ago I was one of them too). After you start being happier and happier, then you ACTUALLY have your confidence growing.

 

[mrfixit]

Fantastic feedback. Alot of good brains here.

To undesputable: When referring to frat boys, I said most, not all. But at the same time I have to wonder why anyone would feel the need to join a fraternity since its not necessary. It is clearly a path to greater power and social heirarchy as well as an institution created for people who want to belong to something. I would ask myself why is it necessary to join one at all? One can surely be highly social without it. One can also meet women without it. A fully secure person can be highly social and not feel any need to require themselves to a social order or social construct. When I was back in college, I went to the fraternity parties, made very close friends with the brothers, drank their beer and took home their women, and they accepted me as a close friend and I never needed to join anything.


Bradshaw: This is true, but it still does not explain or account for why one needs to join a gang or fraternity at all. There must be more motive beyond enjoying human interaction that causes one to take the path of a gangbanger. You can have high social confidence if you are not in a gang. So this leaves one with the deduction that gets to the root of my confusion. Something fundamental confidence is lacking when one feels the need to join a social construct such as this.

Also regarding power: let me clarify
When I mention power I mean power over others, power through money, a position of authority (not personal power). Mr head gangbanger who leads the crew will be more desirable to a woman than just a grunt since he is higher up the power chain.
I know alot of men who are highly self confident in life and with women, but lack money and social status, they can barely carry a job, or they make very little money because perhaps they are lazy, or can never keep a real job because they are always looking for a fast buck, or whatever the case is. Conversely, I also know alot of men who are seriously rich and have status, and influence alot of people, but are always insecure and mask their self importance through material wealth like having a nice SL500 or outdoing someone else by having a bigger house. I see this all the time. There are some men who are highly talented, they can play an instrument like no one can, but they are poor, they cant hold a job, they cant talk to women, and are only born with their talent which keeps them barely fed. So I am wondering, by itself, if you had three of these men, which would a woman choose?

OklyDokly: This is a great post, because I was just reading the same thing. And I am starting to think perhaps women are not attracted to confidence after all. If you think about the "scrub" who is lazy, cant hold a job, doesnt believe in his abilities, promotes for clubs to make friends and get popular but makes no money doing it. Yet they get tons of girls. I do notice that they have no self confidence but they have very, very high self esteem. Half of the time it is because they are too stupid to even question these sorts of things. And since they are just looking for sex and fear attachment from anything that walks they never fear rejection so they can just hit up hundreds of girls effortlessly. I have had many many friends like this and they are highly envious when I hang around. It was to the point where I had to stop hanging around them because they brought me down. I would tell them to get a job but they would straggle along getting by going from job to job. Still they had high self esteem, thought they were great and thought women were beneath them to use and abuse. But when it came to women they truly liked or a relationship they would run the other way in fear. Confidence with women? Not quite, but alot of women were attracted to them because they didnt give a sh*t. Gangbangers have high self esteem. They are strong and untamed. They dont care about anything. They think girls are hos and they are great and they treat the hoodrats like dirt. Yet in my life I've never met one gangbanger with high self-confidence. High self esteem, high dominance, not high self-confidence. They dont seem go hand in hand all the time - They are two different things. There are people who have power and low self confidence in most areas of their life. Some people are innately insecure no matter how much power they have. They may be self-confident in one or two ways, but insecure in 100 other ways and have low esteem. Look at Nixon, Hitler, and Napoleon. Nixon was paranoid, Hitler was pervasively insecure thinking everyone would take over Germany, and Napoleon couldnt talk to a girl. Perhaps I can get more feedback on this.

 

[Jariel]

I think it is often true that people with low self-confidence seek the approval of others. But while the approval lasts, they do have a genuine sense of confidence. But only while the approval lasts.

However, when the fraternity boy is out in the real world or the gang banger is left to fend for himself, you will see their confidence disappear as fast as their popularity, because they have based their confidence on things they can't control - like other people.

 

[Bradshaw]

mrfixit: I am not sure if this is the answer your looking for, but those frat boys/gang bangers also have a lot of other qualities that attract women besides high-confidence / high-independence.

I found this quote from another thread.
Above all, women crave attention. Women want to date rock stars not because they find the man himself exciting, but because they find the thought of sharing the limelight exciting. Ask any young girl what she wants to be. Top answers: model, actress, singer.
- The Unknown Don

Perhaps the girls are drawn to these guys because of the social proof that they have. If they are dating the guys with a lot of social connections (in a gang / member of a fraternity) they are likely to be ‘in the limelight’.

Look at some of the rock stars who have personality traits of someone with low self-confidence (drug addictions, suicidal, self destructive behavior, etc). Women find the social proof of being with these guys so powerful that it overrides there need to be with a guy who has high self-confidence.

 

[mrfixit]

Gang bangers would seem to have alot of power. They dont answer to anyone and defy authority. They usually deal, so they have the supply of drugs. They pack, therefore they can kill anyone they hate. They create their own mini power structure. People fear them. Do you think power is more important to women than self-confidence? The confusion I am having is to which is more important to women. Perhaps it varies from women to women?

I was reading the Ladder Theory. And it was interesting how they made a reference to Bikers and Rich Men being both equally desirable. But both these signify power. Both the rebellion of authority, guns and strength, as well as a suit represents power structure.

As Jariel mentioned, some people base their confidence on things they can't control. So does this mean they are not really self confident and are just faking it? Or enjoying it temporarily? I would think if they are truly self-confident they would have to be sure of themselves whether their friends are there or not. It's like the bully who gets beat up and runs away after the victims big brother comes. Bullies have low self esteem and it does not take real self-confidence to beat up a little guy or to act tough with your friends around. Right? So then I am left to conclude that self-confidence is in fact transient. But at the same time if it evaporates when friends are not around, then there was a fundamental insecurity beforehand that was just being masked by circumstance. Deep down they would not have real self-confidence, and one wonders why dont women see through this facade? That's not true confidence, right? I dont know. Help.. Still confused... help me out guys.. LOL

 

[mrfixit]

bradshaw makes a good point. if every woman wants to be in the limelight, and all the girls want the rock star, because it will feed their ego , then he becomes a challenge. and girls want the challenge right? they need to boost their low self esteem and feel special that someone famous wants them. is this possible?

 

[Tazman]

This is interesting. I know guys who get decent girls and they're usually broke and not all that "bright" upstairs. What they do is run game on women to make them "believe" they're something special and above all else, they don't "supplicate" to them. They maintain a position of power so they almost always have the upper hand and don't mind breaking up because they're constantly juggling other girls.

Not really the way I'd want to approach this but it definitely works for them. It's like some women want a man who's "confident" when it comes to dealing with women themselves.