Christians - Why Did God Create Satan?

[DoubleBarrel]

Nobody is saying this.

Actually, I think the first responder was saying this. I can show you, but why bother wasting time?

Since almost every Christian I've had discussions with seem to have completely different views on core elements, it's difficult to have a collective conversation. Thus, some foundational questions usually have to be asked of every person before even really getting started.

How about you and I start from the beginning. You jumped in on a foundational question without addressing the question in the OP.

What's your answer for why God created Satan/Lucifier? (See below)

Also, God did not create Satan. He was an angel (Lucifer), wanted to become God, and was cast into hell. Hence, Satan.

I've had people give me that response before. And I see what you're saying. However, I'm being literal, not figurative. I see this response as a little bit like a cope-out. It's evasive, as it avoids answering the question as the question was intended. Unless you really didn't get what I meant of course.

It's like asking:

Who created Batman?

Some will say Mr. and Mrs. Wayne because he was conceived and born through them, while others will say Bruce Wayne because he invented Batman. Still others will say Bob Kane.

All are technically right, but what was meant by the question is what's relevant.

In our case, I'm implying the equivalent to:

Who are Batman's biological parents?

And in this case, there is only one correct answer. It's Mr. and Mrs. Wayne. Batman didn't get pregnant, go into labor and give birth to himself.

It's the same thing with my question. So substitute the name Lucifer for Satan if it makes more sense for you. That's my meaning. I'm assuming God created the entity who eventually went by the name Satan.

Does this really have to be so hard?

 

[Beowolf]

You know what? You need to stop being a p**** about this, and call God out about it yourself. Not long ago, I was in a bad situation, and scared sh**less. I kept shouting out to God with all the power in me to help me. Suddenly, I don't know how, but my face was on the floor, and a soft, gentle voice kept asking me, "Do you fear Me?" I immediately thought to myself, who is this? Is this a man or a woman speaking to me? I could'nt distinguish, because it sounded like neither, yet both, at the same time, and I felt enveloped in serenity. Then, I though to myself, this is it, I made The Connection, so, I answered back, "Yes, I fear You, but I also fear what Satan can do, because of all the evil in the world." Then, I felt the peace that enveloped me, starting to leave, And I said, "Don't go, come back!" Then, this beautiful,peaceful voice said to me, "Where have you been? Nothing is impossible to me, I can do anything." This voice kept repeating this to me, and I tried to stay awake to listen to more, but O I could'nt, and drifted off into the most peaceful sleep I ever had. Now, you all may think I'm crazy, but I have never heard voices before, and have'nt since this happened. I will never forget this as long as I live, and whenever I have a problem, I say to God, Ok, you asked me where I am,here I am, and I have a problem, and somehow, it all works out. The point is Op, don't think too much about evil and giving any power to it. Think about what God wants to do for you instead.

 

[MaddXMan]

And then the devil went and planted dinosaur bones and fossils in the soil to confuse the believers into thinking the earth was older than 6000 years! Or was it that dinosaurs were on Noah's ark...

 

[Colossus]

Angels have free will just like human beings.

Even if God knew man would choose to sin, just as angels chose to sin, He had to let them do it because free will is so important- forced love is no love at all.

This is essentially the question of human suffering- Why is there human suffering even though God is all-good and is powerful enough to put an end to all of it? The answer, again, is free choice. Choice to choose good. Choice to choose evil.

One of the mysteries of faith.

Best answer in this thread.

 

[speed dawg]

You know what? You need to stop being a p**** about this, and call God out about it yourself. Not long ago, I was in a bad situation, and scared sh**less. I kept shouting out to God with all the power in me to help me. Suddenly, I don't know how, but my face was on the floor, and a soft, gentle voice kept asking me, "Do you fear Me?" I immediately thought to myself, who is this? Is this a man or a woman speaking to me? I could'nt distinguish, because it sounded like neither, yet both, at the same time, and I felt enveloped in serenity. Then, I though to myself, this is it, I made The Connection, so, I answered back, "Yes, I fear You, but I also fear what Satan can do, because of all the evil in the world." Then, I felt the peace that enveloped me, starting to leave, And I said, "Don't go, come back!" Then, this beautiful,peaceful voice said to me, "Where have you been? Nothing is impossible to me, I can do anything." This voice kept repeating this to me, and I tried to stay awake to listen to more, but O I could'nt, and drifted off into the most peaceful sleep I ever had. Now, you all may think I'm crazy, but I have never heard voices before, and have'nt since this happened. I will never forget this as long as I live, and whenever I have a problem, I say to God, Ok, you asked me where I am,here I am, and I have a problem, and somehow, it all works out. The point is Op, don't think too much about evil and giving any power to it. Think about what God wants to do for you instead.

Yep, what this guy said.

When these clowns come around questioning Christianity, I just refer them to two things: Fulfilled prophecy in the Bible, and what God has done in my own personal life. The Bible is on paper, it is what it is. Everything the early prophets wrote came true. Done. As far as what has happened in my own life, I've personally felt God and seen signs from God that I cannot explain but just trust.

If it were easy, everyone would do it.

As for the original question, numerous threads have hit on the free will, which is the crux of the issue. I don't think we as humans can even begin to comprehend the whole deal, about God being here forever, etc.

 

[Epimanes]

Like others said. God created the angels to have freewill just like man. Lucifer (who was gods right hand angel) wanted to use his free will against god to be god or take his place. God decided to nip it at the butt and kick Lucifer's azz and all his followers (yes other angels supported Lucifer) out of heaven and down to earth. So now demons/satan reside on earth in a spiritual realm, like a 4th dimension we can't see or feel yet because (like all energy it can only be transfered not destroyed and yes our spirits are energy) we have not made that transformation to be able to do so. When we die its our first death and the moment we die we are instantly caught up to the end (like sleeping all night brings you to morning in what seems like an instant) and we then face judgement. Everyone arrives at the same time as we all wake up simultaniously and at judgement we receive our 2nd permanent death (for unbelievers) or eternal life from then on according to the book of life if our name is written in it by having a belief that jesus died for our sins. That's how I see It anyhow.

 

[Skyline]

God did not "create" Satan.

Satan is a fallen arch angel named Lucifer who rebelled against god. He was then banished, and long story short, hes nicknamed Satan.

 

[Solomon]

You know what? You need to stop being a p**** about this, and call God out about it yourself. Not long ago, I was in a bad situation, and scared sh**less. I kept shouting out to God with all the power in me to help me. Suddenly, I don't know how, but my face was on the floor, and a soft, gentle voice kept asking me, "Do you fear Me?" I immediately thought to myself, who is this? Is this a man or a woman speaking to me? I could'nt distinguish, because it sounded like neither, yet both, at the same time, and I felt enveloped in serenity. Then, I though to myself, this is it, I made The Connection, so, I answered back, "Yes, I fear You, but I also fear what Satan can do, because of all the evil in the world." Then, I felt the peace that enveloped me, starting to leave, And I said, "Don't go, come back!" Then, this beautiful,peaceful voice said to me, "Where have you been? Nothing is impossible to me, I can do anything." This voice kept repeating this to me, and I tried to stay awake to listen to more, but O I could'nt, and drifted off into the most peaceful sleep I ever had. Now, you all may think I'm crazy, but I have never heard voices before, and have'nt since this happened. I will never forget this as long as I live, and whenever I have a problem, I say to God, Ok, you asked me where I am,here I am, and I have a problem, and somehow, it all works out. The point is Op, don't think too much about evil and giving any power to it. Think about what God wants to do for you instead.

So do you still fear satan?

 

[JoeMarron]

Darth ended the thread with his first reply. Although not all Christians believe in complete free will. Some believe that humanity is so wicked that it is impossible for us to choose god on our own. They believe that certain people were predestined to choose God. Jesus's sacrificed his life so that those who were predestined could be saved. The ultimate question is why would a loving god create creatures that he knew wouldn't choose him and then damn them to eternal suffering.

You know what? You need to stop being a p**** about this, and call God out about it yourself. Not long ago, I was in a bad situation, and scared sh**less. I kept shouting out to God with all the power in me to help me. Suddenly, I don't know how, but my face was on the floor, and a soft, gentle voice kept asking me, "Do you fear Me?" I immediately thought to myself, who is this? Is this a man or a woman speaking to me? I could'nt distinguish, because it sounded like neither, yet both, at the same time, and I felt enveloped in serenity. Then, I though to myself, this is it, I made The Connection, so, I answered back, "Yes, I fear You, but I also fear what Satan can do, because of all the evil in the world." Then, I felt the peace that enveloped me, starting to leave, And I said, "Don't go, come back!" Then, this beautiful,peaceful voice said to me, "Where have you been? Nothing is impossible to me, I can do anything." This voice kept repeating this to me, and I tried to stay awake to listen to more, but O I could'nt, and drifted off into the most peaceful sleep I ever had. Now, you all may think I'm crazy, but I have never heard voices before, and have'nt since this happened. I will never forget this as long as I live, and whenever I have a problem, I say to God, Ok, you asked me where I am,here I am, and I have a problem, and somehow, it all works out. The point is Op, don't think too much about evil and giving any power to it. Think about what God wants to do for you instead.

I just refer them to two things: Fulfilled prophecy in the Bible, and what God has done in my own personal life.

Yeah personal experience trumps everything. The problem with using this as ultimate proof though is the fact that billions of other people claim to have similar experiences that contradict others. I know I can find Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and a ton of other religious men who claim to have experienced supernatural events that assured them of they're faith. I'm not saying that its all bullsh!t but I find the notion that any one belief system has a monopoly on the truth to be silly.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

So saying God allowed evil into the world so that people could have free will is a fallacy.

Would you like to share your own opinion?

Do you have an opinion?

That's what people generally do in discussions (as you claim this is what this is).

Not pose a question and then try and shoot down every answer.

 

[DoubleBarrel]

Aside from taiyuu_otoko, no one else has given a direct answer. Most didn't even address the original question in their response. Instead, they gave evasive answers, often going off on complete tangents.

It's like asking: What color is the ocean?

And getting the response: The ocean has waves.

Is it so hard to directly answer a question? ...

"God created Satan (or Lucifer for the technical, semantic nit-pickers) because ... [insert reason]."

Now, there were a few people who thought Darth's response was a solid answer to my question. I don't think it was, and here's my explanation...

God chose not to create vampires. According to Darth's argument, God has taken away these vampires free will -- which he claims is so important.

Since God violated vampires' free will by not creating them, it implies he could have just as easily violated Satan's free will by not creating him either. After all, both are good for humanity and would have demonstrated God's love for us.

But the fact that free will is supposedly valid to one species (angels/demons) but isn't valid in relation to another species (vampires) makes Darth's entire argument invalid.

Just like not creating vampires is beneficial to humanity, not creating Lucifer would have been of even greater benefit to us.

So why did God do it when he could have chosen not to?

The free will argument clearly doesn't hold up logically.

taiyuu_otoko

My opinion was stated in the original post; simply: There is no valid answer to this question. In other words, there is no sound, rational reason for why God created Satan.

And if someone gives a response that has holes in it, I'll call it out, and then explain why I think it's irrational. And in the off chance that someone actually comes up with a sound, rational explanation with no holes in it, I would agree. (Actually, I have thought of one. It's not brilliant, and it's a bit of a cope-out. But it does more or less hold up logically.)

Now how about answering the last question I asked you?

 

[( . )( . )]

Questioning the Bible seems a little passe now doesn't it? I mean apart from latte quaffing SWPL hipsters who think their atheistic meanderings "loophole" findings have just blown apart the sun. Who even does it anymore?

No. Turns out whether you believe or not, the Bible is the best template we have found to date for a man/woman/family to live a happy and harmonious life. We tried everything else from witchcraft to taoism to crystals to politically correct leftism to b!tches banging bongo drums these last 5 decades and it all failed miserably. No "new age of enlightenment" came, as a matter of fact everything has started to regress. Yep those old dudes were onto something for a few thousands years for a proper reason as it happens.

Don't be a half clever SWPL my man. It's unbecoming. Join the rest of us and Reject Modernity. :rockon:

 

[Bokanovsky]

Questioning the Bible seems a little passe now doesn't it? I mean apart from latte quaffing SWPL hipsters who think their atheistic meanderings "loophole" findings have just blown apart the sun. Who even does it anymore?

No. Turns out whether you believe or not, the Bible is the best template we have found to date for a man/woman/family to live a happy and harmonious life. We tried everything else from witchcraft to taoism to crystals to politically correct leftism these last 5 decades and it all failed miserably. No "new age of enlightenment" came, as a matter of fact everything has started to regress. Yep those old dudes were onto something for a few thousands years for a proper reason as it happens.

Don't be a half clever SWPL my man. It's unbecoming. Join the rest of us and Reject Modernity. :rockon:

Agree with the t!ts man. Christianity, at its core, is just a set of moral values that trace their origins to ancient Mesopotamia and that have been refined over millennia by Hebrews, Romans, Byzantines and, ultimately, Europeans. The stories about Jesus, apostles, angels, satan, miracles etc. are like the plot in a typical action flick: they are just there to hold things together but are otherwise of minimal importance.

 

[DoubleBarrel]

( . )( . ) and Bokanovsky

C'mon guys. Really?

Are you really going to hijack the thread because you think I'm untrendy and behind the times, and because you assume that I disagree with every single Christian moral just because I'm questioning one fundamental belief? Honestly.

How about starting your own thread on the pros and cons of Christianity (or whatever) if you're that adamant about it? I'd be happy to join in and respond! You might even find we agree on a lot of the things you've brought up here.

EDIT: I'm actually interested in your guys take on this, so I started a new thread. Not sure if I'm taking it the way you guys intended. If not, by all means, redirect it...

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2075706#post2075706

 

[TheStig]

You cannot violate something or someone's free will if that something or someone does not or has not ever existed.

 

[DoubleBarrel]

You cannot violate something or someone's free will if that something or someone does not or has not ever existed.

Exactly! That's my point. If God didn't create Satan, he wouldn't be violating Satan's free will. So Darth's free will argument fails.

 

[DoubleBarrel]

It was answered, you just weren't paying attention.

No, it has not been answered yet. And I have been paying close attention.

There's a difference between a response which doesn't address the question, an invalid answer that breaks down logically, and a valid answer that holds up logically.

So far, there have been many responses, one or two invalid answers, and zero valid answers.

But by all means, please point this supposed answer out to me. Because I'm sure I read each response pretty carefully.

Let me reverse this. Why would God NOT create Satan?

I addressed that in the OP...

Satan persuaded Adam and Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, causing the original sin. Because of the original sin, pain and suffering (i.e. disease, old age and death, etc) was brought upon humanity.

If God loved humanity, he wouldn't want us to experience pain and suffering; therefore, he should not have created Satan knowing what result from it, being all-knowing.

Not to mention because of the original sin, the majority of people will end up in hell, whereas had it not happened there would be no need for hell. And everyone would still be talking face-to-face with God, just as Adam and Eve did.

This chain of events started with Satan being created. Short-circuit that, and creation would have presumably remained a paradise with peace and harmony between people.

 

[BudaBing]

There is no Satan. The character Satan was created by the authors of the Bible (No not Gods disciples) to keep mankind in line.

Watch the documentary Zeitgeist (not the addendum version but the original version) on Netflix from about the 9 minute mark from the beginning to get a real eye opener on the true origins of religion and why religion was created in the first place.

Hint: religion was NOT created for the benefit of all of mankind.

Religion is a tool, nothing more.

Religion says to "tithe", that is to give 10% of your income to the lord and then "your cup will runneth over that it cannot be contained".

I tried that in my 20's for a while (yeah I know stupid) and guess what happened? Nothing. My cup never "runneth over".

God gets too much credit and too much blame for what happens here on earth. Something good happens and it's God's will. Something bad happens and "he works in mysterious ways". BAH!

WE (that's right YOU and ME) make our own future here NOT God.

God doesn't operate on this plane of existence. No one has EVER in the history of mankind had direct conversation with him where he actually TALKED and their ears heard the vibrations of his voice.

But I digress. Still true though.

 

[TheStig]

Exactly! That's my point. If God didn't create Satan, he wouldn't be violating Satan's free will. So Darth's free will argument fails.

I wasn't saying that to agree with you, I was saying it about your retarded vampire example.

Now, there were a few people who thought Darth's response was a solid answer to my question. I don't think it was, and here's my explanation...

God chose not to create vampires. According to Darth's argument, God has taken away these vampires free will -- which he claims is so important.

Since God violated vampires' free will by not creating them, it implies he could have just as easily violated Satan's free will by not creating him either.

Pure ridiculousness

 

[DoubleBarrel]

I wasn't saying that to agree with you, I was saying it about your retarded vampire example.

But that doesn't change the fact that you did agree with me.

If you agree that an uncreated individual's free will can't be violated (which you did), it also means that the argument everyone thought was so great -- that not creating Satan would have violated his free will; therefore, God had to create him -- isn't a rational argument that stands up to logic.

So does anyone have a rational reason for why God created Satan? Or is there none, just as I have speculated?