Challenge and Mystery not working for me

[jwchin]

Hi guys

I just wanted to post an update about a girl that I've been seeing for about a month. She is the girl from my last post, "Hardest Phone pickup ever". Anyways, she was giving me a hard time about getting her number, but I finally got it.

So far, we've been on 3 dates.
1st- Drinks
2nd- Dinner and Pool
3rd- Dinner and movie

On all of these dates, I have been C+F (I always bust her balls when she does/says anything dumb), initaited kino (touching ear ring, hair, neck, guiding her thru doors), mysterious (I don't tell her much about myself), and being a challenge (I call her once a week, and only to set up dates.)

Well, what happened on the 3rd date was that we went out for dinner, then we walked around a mall. During the walk, she grabbed my arm twice and lead me to a store filled with "Winnie the Pooh" dolls. She said that she wanted to get one, but didn't ask me to buy one for her. (Maybe she secretly wanted me to get her one, I don't know)

Then we went to go see Kill Bill. During the movie, I tried to hold her hand but she pulled away. After the movie, we went for coffee, and she didn't mention the topic. Of course, I brought the incident up (AFC behaviour??)

She said that she feels like she doesn't know me well enough yet, to make a commitment to me. She also said that she had no idea that I liked her. She also said that maybe in time something may happen. (Womenese for no interest???)

She's only had 1 bf before, and she told me that the same thing happened to him. He declared his feelings for her early on, she told him to wait, he did, and they dated for a few months.

I don't get it, this web site, Doc love and DYD said that being aloof and being a challenge will peak her interest. But so far it doesn't seem to be working for me. I also failed with this technique before in the past. ("Being TOO much of a challenge")

I should also mention that I'm chinese and she is too. Maybe mystery and challenge work better on white girls. I don't know.
I kinda feel like if I was more AFC (calling her more, mentioning that I wanted a relationship with her) then it may have worked out.

Part of me wants to NEXT her, but another part wants to put her at the back of the pile, and see what happens. I'm currently dating 2 other girls but she is the #1 pick.

jwchin

 

[Tryin to Grow a Chin]

Originally posted by jwchin


I don't get it, this web site, Doc love and DYD said . . .

Ah ha! Now I see the problem quite clearly!

I'm going to do you a GREAT favor, free of charge (AFC behavior? )!

www.seductionbb.com

www.fastseduction.com

Get with the program, man.

 

[Knicknack]

3 dates and no physical contact? are you kidding me? this girl is wasting your time and money. move on.

 

[1hepcat]

You should have known this chick was bad news from the start. If it was that difficult, that should have told you to stay away from this one. I swear, when girls like you, they don't give you shyt like this one does. They don't make it that hard to start something with them. And they sure as hell don't mind you holding their hand. She has already made you jump through so many hoops I'd think you were in the circus.

This girl is screwing with you big time. I guess she just wants you to spend a buttload of money on her and have fun throwing insults at you. She has low interest level and a bad attitude to boot. Why you put up with it is beyond my understanding. Are you a masochist?

If you post about her again make sure to post your address and phone number so we can set up a time to come beat some sense into you.


NEXT


P.S. I would agree with one of the posts that you need to work on your skills too.

 

[violator]

You must undertand something. Being a Challenge, and C&F and all the other great things taught by Doc Love and David D'Angelo does not amount to anything, unless there is at least some attraction from the girl.

What we are taught at this site is not some magic elixir that is somehow going to make all girls crazy for you. It will only make you improve your game with girls who "already" have some attraction and help you recognize those signs of attraction and weed out the duds.

Think about it, would you all of a sudden become attracted to some 200 lb, 4-8 acne ridden girl who was playing hard to get to get your attention? I think not.

In your case, I agree with the others that she has very low IL and you should move on. You must realize that this girl is not sufficiently "attracted" to you for challenge and c&f to work. She is quite obviously stringing you along, and if you have read any of Doc Love's articles, you should have picked this up even before the first date. She fits what you would call the "professional dater" category. These are girls who will gladly go out with guys they have no romantic interest in and spend their money. But when pull comes to shove, they, like this girl, will not touch or kiss you let alone have sex with you.


Immediately drop this chick and move on. She is bad news.


PS: I was not trying to compare you with the fat girl analogy above. For all I know you may be a good looking dude. But, sometimes, no matter how good looking you are, there is no sexual chemistry whatsoever and thus no attraction between two people. And, also you broke a cardinal rule which is never let a girl on on how you feel about her early in a relationship. It is almost always a kiss of death.

 

[HighLowJack]

Her interest level was never there from the start. You shouldn't have to pull teeth to get her number. High interest woman, almost force it on you. Woman are smart. They will find a way to take things further if they like you.

I wouldn't have bought the Poo bear either. Heck with that, with her low interest level.

I was just thinking about the movie you guys saw. Kill Bill may not have been a good movie to create romantic feelings. There chopping arms and heads and stuff off, aren't they?

She said that she feels like she doesn't know me well enough yet, to make a commitment to me. She also said that she had no idea that I liked her. She also said that maybe in time something may happen. (Womenese for no interest???)

If your out with her alone doing things, then she should have had an idea that you liked her. Remember all the aloof stuff and making fun of her is great, only if she's having fun with it, and its raising her interest level. If she's not having fun, then your shooting your self in the foot.

I don't get it, this web site, Doc love and DYD said that being aloof and being a challenge will peak her interest. But so far it doesn't seem to be working for me. I also failed with this technique before in the past. ("Being TOO much of a challenge")

Being a challenge works wonders if she cant wait to see you again. If your a great guy, and she still doesn't seem like she likes you, then moving on is the best thing.

 

[k_hectic]

David Deangelo DOES say clearly that if the techniques did not work in one way or another, you must immidiately NEXT the girl.

That is your mistake from what I've read in your post. But, it is not your only one.

David Deangelo also clearly mentions that DINNER dates are for WUSSIES! The moment you're buying a girl a dinner, you're basically kissing to her big time. You're saying "I will pay money to feed you so you go out with me". You must remember the principle of attraction. You must attract the girl to you. If she does not respond, then move on, don't buy her dinner!

Whenever you're paying too much money, then it's a signal you're doing something wrong.

p.s. I watched Kill Bill Vol. 1 yesterday! It was an AWESOME movie.

 

[becker]

The main problem here is that if you never buy the girl dinner, and always go on these cheap dates, it may be a turnoff because you come off as a cheapskate. It's a very fine line to walk.

It's important also not to bind your life to too many rules like this. Be a little more spontaneous with yourself. I think that buying dinner is ok as long as you don't make a big stink about it. Like don't buy her dinner with some hope that she'll jump in the sack with you or fall hopelessly in love in your arms. Just don't overdo it and pull out your wallet for EVERYTHING.

I will often pay for something like it's no problem, then move on to the next topic of conversation. It can't be a big deal to buy something for her like dinner. Pick up the check like it's natural, and just hand it to the waitress, and continue the conversation about other things. Keep the attention off the check at all costs. I believe that when someone pays for something for someone else and they expect something in return, you can smell it from a mile away.

 

[spanky]

Originally posted by becker
The main problem here is that if you never buy the girl dinner, and always go on these cheap dates, it may be a turnoff because you come off as a cheapskate. It's a very fine line to walk.

It's important also not to bind your life to too many rules like this. Be a little more spontaneous with yourself. I think that buying dinner is ok as long as you don't make a big stink about it. Like don't buy her dinner with some hope that she'll jump in the sack with you or fall hopelessly in love in your arms. Just don't overdo it and pull out your wallet for EVERYTHING.

I will often pay for something like it's no problem, then move on to the next topic of conversation. It can't be a big deal to buy something for her like dinner. Pick up the check like it's natural, and just hand it to the waitress, and continue the conversation about other things. Keep the attention off the check at all costs. I believe that when someone pays for something for someone else and they expect something in return, you can smell it from a mile away.

I agree with Beck. While I would avoid gift buying at this point, don't be too cheap. Don't break your pocket book but don't take it to your grave either.


That whole explanation about how things turned out with her boyfriend is just BS to help to save face for you or
keep you hanging on with false hope. You are not her ex.

While I do not advocate always nexting when you see a ouple of negative signs during dates, the ones displayed by this chic are pretty profound to suggest that you do in this case. Pulling that hand away during the movie is a bad sign since it was the third date. By this time, most seasoned daters would be looking forward to holding the chic's @$$ in their bed later that night.


Hey, don't start doubting yourself and your methods. You may just need to tweak and adjust some things to suit different personalities. Generally, being
a mystery and challenge is good for most chics no matter who they are but if she feels as if she really knows nothing about you at all....... Anyway, another option is to awaken so much lust in her that she won't care who you are but that is always easier said than done.

 

[myfriendblu]

Guess what buddy...Classic case of LOW FREAKIN IL. Lemme say it again. LOW IL. One more time....LOW IL. Got it? Good. NEXT

LOW IL
LOW IL
LOW IL
LOW IL

Don't mean to repeat myself, but people need to be told things more than once some times....

 

[Jake Steed]

jwchin,

A lot of (asian) girls are like this in that they have been taught by their mothers to hold out and make the guy wait just to give him anything, like even kissing. Of course this isn't strictly an asian thing--white girls do it too--but because you are chinese as well, I think it factors in.

For example, because you are chinese, like her, you are a boyfriend candidate--someone who could become her bf and her family might approve of. Because of this, she's probably going to give you a harder time getting into her pants than she normally would had you not been chinese. The reason behind this is because if she denies you her puzzy and you wait patiently like her last idiot bf, by the time she gives you some action, your "relationship" has more validity--at least as viewed by society. On the other hand, if you were non-chinese, she wouldn't view you as bf material, but if you excited her, she'd view you as a fvck buddy--or a guy she could just give up the puzzy to now, but not make a bf. Does this make sense?

Here's your biggest mistake--and this has nothing to do with race--your biggest mistake is you cast yourself into the "dating" mode with her. You are taking her out on "dates" and the style of these dates = courting. In courting, the girl is supposed to hold out for as long as she can in order to get the guy on his knees. Already, your girl senses this, and is playing the game nicely.

Next time you need to not place so much importance on making it seem like a date and making HER the prize. Instead, go to activities you were going to do anyways, and just invite her along. Then during the activity, escalate kino, talk about sex, get her turned on, and make your move! That way, she can't claim this bullshyt that she didn't know you were interested.

Do not be apologetic about wanting to sex her up. Talk about other girls you are dating. Make it clear to her in CASUAL convo that you are dating, and that you don't wait around for anybody--that way she will know she has to get with your game plan or she will be left behind.

One final thing about challenge and mystery. Challenge and mystery can work for you, that's true. They can also work against you. The whole purpose of challenge is for the girl to feel LUCKY to have gotten you. When you tried to hold her hand, and then later asked her why she wouldn't hold your hand, you provided 0 challenge. SHE is the challenge right now. There is a fine line between going for what you want and making her feel lucky to get a chance with you. In time you will learn how to acheive this balance.

The concept of mystery is used to pique her interest by giving her important tidbits of your personality, but not EVERYTHING at once. Otherwise she will think she's figured you out and will get bored of you quickly. As long as you are not pouring your heart out to her about all the details of your life, you are doing fine. Just make sure SHE feels LUCKY to get little tidbits of your life.

Jake

 

[k_hectic]

Well said Jake Steed, that's what I meant when I mentioned the "dinner" thing. As soon as the guy is buying a girl things, including food, he's courting her, and such acting as a provider, not a lover. No wonder she wanted him to buy a "Winnie the Pooh" doll lol

 

[iqqi]

Originally posted by jwchin
Hi guys

I just wanted to post an update about a girl that I've been seeing for about a month. She is the girl from my last post, "Hardest Phone pickup ever". Anyways, she was giving me a hard time about getting her number, but I finally got it.

my first impression is that IL was low to start, therefor you have an uphill battle, if a chance at all.

So far, we've been on 3 dates.
1st- Drinks
2nd- Dinner and Pool
3rd- Dinner and movie

perfect set ups and all...

On all of these dates, I have been C+F (I always bust her balls when she does/says anything dumb),

definately good, if you are being charming...

initaited kino (touching ear ring, hair, neck, guiding her thru doors),

only good if she is responding, otherwise you might be coming across as desperate.

mysterious (I don't tell her much about myself),

hope she agrees that it is mysterious, not BORING.

and being a challenge (I call her once a week, and only to set up dates.)

has she ever called you at all on her own yet?

Well, what happened on the 3rd date was that we went out for dinner, then we walked around a mall. During the walk, she grabbed my arm twice and lead me to a store filled with "Winnie the Pooh" dolls. She said that she wanted to get one, but didn't ask me to buy one for her. (Maybe she secretly wanted me to get her one, I don't know)

sounds like she is not interested, but is trying to see what she can get out of you. BEWARE. be VERY aware.

Then we went to go see Kill Bill. During the movie, I tried to hold her hand but she pulled away. After the movie, we went for coffee, and she didn't mention the topic. Of course, I brought the incident up (AFC behaviour??)

more high pitched alarms. NO IL NO IL....



you could be using the chinese as an excuse to keep pursuing a girl with no IL who is using you as an ego trip, or i could be wrong.


hope i'm wrong.

BTW i'm a chic. and i call em how i see em.

 

[Player_Supreme]

that shyt works on all cultures...cause they are all still just women. some nutz are harder to crack than others...also you may need work on your technique more and become a master belt at it...lol

 

[uniassign]

Low IR could be a reason why she wouldn't let you go further, but from what I can read, I think the major reason why you haven't progressed in this seduction is:

THE LACK OF RAPPORT

Even the chick told you: I don't know you yet

Now before I get jumped on about watching a girl's actions rather than listen to her, let's have a look at what he has done so far ...

1. Be C&F
That's good because it will amp up any attraction that she may have for him

2. Mysterous
That's also good because if she was at all interested, she would be filling the knowledge gaps she had of him with positive things.

But wait ...

SHE KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT HIM

Did she ask questions about him? Probably.
Did she like him? I think so, otherwise a chick would not have invested THREE meetings with you.

There is a certain time for C&F and being mysterous, and that is during the attraction phase of the seduction. Once a chick starts asking you lame questions (like: what do you do? What's your name? etc) that's her que for you to tone down the C&F and start getting to know each other.

 

[Survivor]

jwchin,

Jake Steed hit the bullseye with his response. Listen to it. I also noticed that you're about the same age as I was when I discovered this site. Plus, your post is eerily similar to what I've experienced. Long unproductive dates with beautiful low interest females.

Lets approach the solution to your problem step by step:

Step 1: Change your mindset. From now on, YOU are the interviewer. Your task is find women (as in plural) who are interested in YOU. Not your challenge, not your mystery, but YOU. Commit yourself to doing the hard work necessary to identify these women and dating/kissing/phucking as many of these lucky chosen women as reasonably possible.

Step 2: [Crucial] Re-evaluate your physical appearance and make necessary adjustments. Is your hair presentable? Are your clothes clean and neat? Are your shoes shined? Pay closer attention to your appearance, fashion and hygiene. First impressions are key to how receptive women are to your advances. Place your ego aside and do whatever it takes to improve your looks.

Step 3: Spend the next few months or so collecting phone numbers. Home or cell is irrevevant, cause in long run, its high IL that you're looking for. Research this site for some convo tips and approach about, say, 30 girls that you find at least remotely attractive. You'll get rejected alot, but embrace the experience and learn from it. I garauntee that at a paultry 10% success rate, you WILL get at least 3 real digits and dates for every 30 girls you approach.

Step 4: Be more creative with your dates. Take these 3 or more girls dancing at a local club. Or an amusement park. Find something that YOU like that's out of the ordinary or at least involves physical activity, and invite these 3 or more girls to tag along. Anything that involves more action and less talk with help you stand out from the typical "dinner and movie".

Step 5: Take the experience that you've now gained from dating these 3 or more girls and apply it to your future relationships.

Follow these steps and you'll begin to develop an attitude such that challenge and mystery will no longer be a problem.

Take action, my friend.

 

[Wong Fei Hung]

I had met a girl like that. I next her! She was wasting my time and my energy. Not all "girls" will react positively to a guy with challenge and mystery.

 

[jwchin]

Update

Well, I just wanna thank you guys for the advice that you gave me. I just wanna clear up a few subjects.

#1. She is NOT a professional dater, I'll dealt with them in the past and I always NEXT them. For the first date, I paid for the drinks ($7). For the second date I paid for dinner ($15) and she played for pool ($10). Finally, last nite, I payed for dinner ($15) and she paid for the movie and coffee ($26).

#2. So far the girl has called me once, but that was only to reschedule a date. She hasn't called me just to talk or set up a dtae with me. I always call her like once a week, fluff talk and then to set up a date.

#3. Regarding Kino. When I initaite kino with her, she doesn't move away. But she doesn't really do it to me. A few times she touches my arm when we are close and talking and she did pull me towards the "pooh" bear. After all the dates, I walk her to her door and give her a hug. I like to do hand holding first, then kiss after. (In case, you guys wanted to blast me for not kissing her on first date)

#4 About building rapport, I answer almost all her questions seriously. Of course, I'm vague with my answer. I highly doubt that even Chris Rock would have enough material to constantly bust her balls on everything she says or asks.

#5 You guys told me in my last post to forget about the girl. I just called her to give it a shot. I didn't expect anything from it. I'm actually surprised that I got to a 3rd date with her. I've gotten numbers relatively easy in the past, and with those girls they either flake out after the 1st date or I lose interest in them.

#6 The way I dress is in Diesel jeans and T-shirts. I also wear either a Jean jacket or a retro track jacket. My shoes are Adidas shell toes or Black Pumas. (I like the retro look now) My old look was more GQ. I have a whole closet full of DKNY, Kenneth Cole, Banana Republic and Club Monaco stuff. I don't really wear this stuff anymore.

#7. I'm pretty good at getting girls numbers and approaching them. I can usually get 9/10 numbers. (Never a fake one so far, knock on wood) Then I get 5/9 dates. Then I end up with 1 or 2 girls that actually like me. The ones I fail with are either professional daters, attention *****s, or they think I'm cool but only wanna be friends with me.

Honestly, I feel like I'm the kinda guy that gets like a million job interviews but very rarely lands a job. This is very discouraging, I wish it was eaiser sometimes. I put in so much effort but only produce minimal results. However, I am the envy of all my freinds because they are too scared to go up to girls and get theirs numbers. So I can have some comfort in that.

Thanks again

jwchin

 

[jwchin]

Forgot this part

I also wanted to say that so far this girl has not shown any signs of being flaky. She is very consistant.

I was reading the discussion about "nexting experiment" and I think that I'm gonna try this on her. I just wanna see what will happen.

jwchin

 

[chlywly]

Sounds like she's a little scared a little flaky, but no need to next her so soon, have fun with the situation; take charge and milk it for what its worth When she pulled her hand away you should said something funny, besides by holding your hand she is in no way somehow commited to you.