Cell Tech

[MindOverMatter]

do you have the full name of the study? what journal is it published in?

"......Creatine supplementation, in the dosages commonly used, results in urinary concentrations that are 90 times greater than normal(EDIT: not visible to the naked eye). The long term effects of this have not been investigated, but there is possibility for a variety of nephrotoxic, i.e., kidney damaging, events. There is potential for direct toxicity on renal tubules where urine is formed, and for acceleration of kidney stone formation. Recently, a baseball player for the Houston Astros was determined to have suffered from dehydration, kidney stones, and transient kidney damage as the result of creatine supplementation. Additionally, the deaths of 3 collegiate wrestlers this past year are being investigated to determine what role creatine supplementation may have played......"

There have been long term studies conducted at U of Memphis on safety of creatine and its effects on the kidneys. Both of these studies showed that after 9 months of 5g/day creatine dosage, there were no kidney damage or negative effects on markers of renal function or muscle and liver enzymes.

The studies also showed that studies have shown that use of creatine can help reduce your chances of heart disease and adult on-set diabetes. It was found that after 51 days of taking creatine the study group had a 22% decrease in VLDL-cholesterol levels and a 23% decrease in blood triglyceride levels. VLDL-cholesterol and triglycerides are risk factors for heart disease and adult on-set diabetes.

The references:

Kreider R, Rasmussen C, Ransom C, Melton C, Greenwood M, Stroud T, Cantler E, Milnor P, Almada A, Greenhaff P. Long-term creatine supplementation does not affect markers of renal stress in athletes.

Almada A, Kreider R, Ransom J, Melton C, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Stroud T, Cantler E, Milnor P, Earnest C. Long-term creatine supplementation does not affect muscle or liver enzyme efflux in athletes.


Yes you can have kidney damage with the use of creatine if you use high doses. Your body can only absorb so much of it, before it has to excrete the excess creatine. Kidney/liver damage occurs from excreting excess creatine for long periods of time.

Not to mention the fact most people are idiots and while supplementing creatine, totally ignore water consumption. Obviously if you're gonna take creatine, you have to drink lots of water, otherwise you will get dehydrated and cause harm to your body. Which brings me to this:

ecently, a baseball player for the Houston Astros was determined to have suffered from dehydration

And? I'm sorry but that doesn't mean sh!t. For all I know he could have been using super high doses of 20-30g per day and while neglecting water intake. The fact is, the studies I've referrenced to you show that a daily intake of 5g/day for 9 months shows NO kidney/liver damage.

 

[Eddie]

i'll try and find you a link or the name of the journal if i get somne time to spare...i had the document saved on my system in parts...i'll try to find you the original thing.
as for the baseball player from houston ...your point that he might have taken excessive dosages without water and stuff.....AINT that just plain old "SPECULATION".
as for long term research conducted by the university....i'm really doubtful of its finding for the reason that the olympic commitee has still kept "creatine" under the radar i.e. they have not fully cleared it as a safe n sound supplement.

Both of these studies showed that after 9 months of 5g/day creatine dosage, there were no kidney damage or negative effects on markers of renal function or muscle and liver enzymes.

well, well......9 month study is NOT long term from any view point, bro. its what i said before...SHORT TERM!!!.

after 51 days of taking creatine the study group had a 22% decrease in VLDL-cholesterol levels and a 23% decrease in blood triglyceride levels. VLDL-cholesterol and triglycerides are risk factors for heart disease and adult on-set diabetes.

man, 51 days is super duper short term once again....it aint LONG TERM by any stretch of imagination.
Start reading articles from a unbiased stand point cos these articles that you just quoted are self-contradictory. after saying that they've done long term study..they immediately quote their short term findings.!!!!

PS. as a fellow bodybuilder, i know how hard it is to digest the news that the favorite supplement you were using aint all that goody good.

 

[simon]

Originally posted by Eddie
"...The long term effects of this have not been investigated, but there is possibility for a... There is potential for..."

That seems pretty circumstantial to me.

 

[Eddie]

That seems pretty circumstantial to me.

.....might be....but the question is -- is it really worth the risk on your health&body??is it?

 

[simon]

We don't even know if there is a risk yet.

The only reason I'll be taking creatine is because I got 100g of the 200 mesh stuff free with my order of whey. After that's gone, I doubt I'll buy more.

 

[italostud]

Hey man, I used to work at a GNC, so listen close.

Muscletech puts a TON of money into advertising, as you can tell. They ALSO put a ton of money into sales incentives, which means:

Say you came into my GNC, looking for creatine. Lets say there's 2 different kinds, if I sell you brand X, I might get 50 cents commission on it, however, a large celltech will usually net me like $3.50 or $4 commission.

Do you know how many stupid guys I sold celltech too? I would tell them they'd put on so much weight. And they'd believe it because of what they saw in the muscletech ads.

End of story, Muscletech makes millions, and I'd make quite a bit on commission.

Don't buy into the hype.

 

[MindOverMatter]

well, well......9 month study is NOT long term from any view point, bro. its what i said before...SHORT TERM!!!.

No, if there is damage to the kidneys, small effects will be aparrent in as little as 4 months. No changes or damages to the kidneys/liver were detected using the 5g/day dosage (as is recommended). I have provided a study that proves creatine does NOT damage kidneys if supplemented properly, and you're telling me that it's bs because it's only been tested for 9 months.

Meanwhile, you STILL haven't provided me ANY proof that says otherwise except hearsay. Show me ONE study that proves creatine causes liver/kidney damage.

Start reading articles from a unbiased stand point cos these articles that you just quoted are self-contradictory. after saying that they've done long term study..they immediately quote their short term findings.!!!!

Obviously when you analyze a subject for 9 months, you will have short term and long term findings. How are they self-contradictory? While researching to find out negative effects of creatine on kidneys/liver, they discovered that it lowers cholesterol. When conducting research, it's common to find results you were not looking for in the first place. You still report them because it gives future studies information to work with.

Studies are rated by their popularity. That means, the more a study is referrenced in future studies, the more of an impact rating that particular study has. The more information you have in your study, the more it will be cross-referrenced in other people's research. So reporting your short term findings as well as your long term ones is beneficial to the study's success.

If you have helped with research at your university, you'd know this.

As for the cholesterol lowering findings, what are you crazy? They find that creatine lowers VLDL-cholesterol levels by 22% and decreases blood triglyceride levels by 23% after ONLY 51 days, and you're still shouting how creatine is evil?

Do you realize how stupid your argument sounds in this day and age where people have very high levels of cholesterol and are having heart attacks left and right?

as for the baseball player from houston ...your point that he might have taken excessive dosages without water and stuff.....AINT that just plain old "SPECULATION".

Hello? Do you know what dehydration is? Do you know that it occurs because there is not enough water in your body? Obviously if the player was dehydrated, he wasn't drinking enough water. This isn't spectulation, it's a logical connection.

And obviously when you don't drink enough water, the creatine you put in your system is not put to use, and has to be excreted. When your body has to excrete creatine, THAT's when the liver/kidneys start to take damage. When you supplement it in proper doses and drink lots of water, and actually PUT the creatine to use, there is no liver/kidney damage because your body DOES NOT EXCRETE IT.

PS. as a fellow bodybuilder, i know how hard it is to digest the news that the favorite supplement you were using aint all that goody good.

It's not about that at all. I don't even take creatine right now because I ran out and don't have cash to spend on another jar. Your argument does not offend me as a bodybuilder, it offends me as someone who's based all his workouts, nutrition, and supplementation on scientific research.

There is nothing I hate more then hearing some clueless kid say "there have been studies that say..." yet not give me 1 f*cking referrence. You keep telling me about all this kidney damage, but you haven't referrenced me one study that proves that the proper supplementation of creatine (5g/day) gives the user kidney damage.

What I'm trying to say is, if you don't have actual scientific proof, don't pretend you have it. Because people will call your bluff and both you and your argument will be a joke.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Originally posted by Eddie
.....might be....but the question is -- is it really worth the risk on your health&body??is it?

The same thing can be said about unprotected sex or waiting for a bus. Fear of the unknown, if that really worth the risk?

Just something to consider.

 

[Eddie]

Because people will call your bluff and both you and your argument will be a joke

my intention : to possibly throw some light in an area where i saw a lot of biased reporting and varying degrees of misinformation.
you wanna stay adamant on your stance and try to splash mud on a viewpoint that does not confirm with your own... then be my guest....i already said in the earlier post..."To each his Own". i aint here to shove any argument down anybodys throat. i put up info. that i've got . if someone wants to read it?...well and good...dont wanna read it?..well n good again.
its all as simple as that