Can the two divergent philosophies of the 'seduction community' be reconciled?

[Rollo Tomassi]

So it seems that there are two types of guys here with two very differing desires:

1) The guys who are trying to have a traditional monogamous relationship with a high-quality broad.

2) The guys who are trying to bang tons of mid-to high-level broads.

I don't necessarily see it like this. I think it's easily observable that at least 80% of guys (and I'm being generous) struggle with a Beta - AFC mentality and all the permutations that this mindset involves. Most subscribe to some mental schema - white knights, supplicants, savior mentality, scarcity mentality, etc. - that they've internalized as the best path to solve the problem of their lack of intimacy and sex with women.

I would argue that very few guys seek out the community (not exclusively SoSuave) in order to boost their number of lays. This presupposes that these guys are already getting laid regularly enough to consider ways to ƒuck more women. Far more common is the socially retarded guy looking for a way to "become normal" by getting together with his ONEitis or his yet to be actualized idealized ONEitis.

Because of his predispositions to a Beta mindset and methodology, to him monogamy is the ONLY valid options. So suggesting that he learn Game and develop a small harem of non-exclusive women is ridiculous and offensive. He thinks he's better than that; that's part of this "not-like-other-guys" grasp for uniqueness amongst all the "bad players that women are too deluded to recognize."

Most guys learning Game, develop an initial interest in it solely for the purpose of facilitating their fantasy monogamy with their realized or future ONEitis.

 

[speed dawg]

I don't necessarily see it like this. I think it's easily observable that at least 80% of guys (and I'm being generous) struggle with a Beta - AFC mentality and all the permutations that this mindset involves. Most subscribe to some mental schema - white knights, supplicants, savior mentality, scarcity mentality, etc. - that they've internalized as the best path to solve the problem of their lack of intimacy and sex with women.

I would argue that very few guys seek out the community (not exclusively SoSuave) in order to boost their number of lays. This presupposes that these guys are already getting laid regularly enough to consider ways to ƒuck more women. Far more common is the socially retarded guy looking for a way to "become normal" by getting together with his ONEitis or his yet to be actualized idealized ONEitis.

Because of his predispositions to a Beta mindset and methodology, to him monogamy is the ONLY valid options. So suggesting that he learn Game and develop a small harem of non-exclusive women is ridiculous and offensive. He thinks he's better than that; that's part of this "not-like-other-guys" grasp for uniqueness amongst all the "bad players that women are too deluded to recognize."

Most guys learning Game, develop an initial interest in it solely for the purpose of facilitating their fantasy monogamy with their realized or future ONEitis.

Excellent, excellent post. Sums up everything much better than I could ever try to do.

My first thoughts is that Zarky is completely lost on this topic. Way over the left field fence. He's missing the fundamental parts - OR - maybe he's never done a Beta to Alpha transformation, perhaps he's always seen things from an Alpha point of view?

 

[DanelMadr]

I don't necessarily see it like this. I think it's easily observable that at least 80% of guys (and I'm being generous) struggle with a Beta - AFC mentality and all the permutations that this mindset involves. Most subscribe to some mental schema - white knights, supplicants, savior mentality, scarcity mentality, etc. - that they've internalized as the best path to solve the problem of their lack of intimacy and sex with women.

I would argue that very few guys seek out the community (not exclusively SoSuave) in order to boost their number of lays. This presupposes that these guys are already getting laid regularly enough to consider ways to ƒuck more women. Far more common is the socially retarded guy looking for a way to "become normal" by getting together with his ONEitis or his yet to be actualized idealized ONEitis.

Because of his predispositions to a Beta mindset and methodology, to him monogamy is the ONLY valid options. So suggesting that he learn Game and develop a small harem of non-exclusive women is ridiculous and offensive. He thinks he's better than that; that's part of this "not-like-other-guys" grasp for uniqueness amongst all the "bad players that women are too deluded to recognize."

Most guys learning Game, develop an initial interest in it solely for the purpose of facilitating their fantasy monogamy with their realized or future ONEitis.

I agree with you. However is there an opposite? Like guys playing the new acquired role of seducer?
What is so special about bedding multiple women besides feeding the 'I can do it' part of oneself?
The ONEtis approach is flawed, the Player approach is flawed. Isn't there a balance? Dating girl you actually like without the fear of losing her and having no need to f@ck elsewhere? Isn't f@cking overrated anyway, especially when on the level of FB?

 

[zekko]

Because of his predispositions to a Beta mindset and methodology, to him monogamy is the ONLY valid options

Obviously this depends to some extent on how you define "Beta". But I think most average guys would have a hard time going through life without having at least a few non-exclusive/casual type trysts.

The ONEtis approach is flawed, the Player approach is flawed. Isn't there a balance? Dating girl you actually like without the fear of losing her and having no need to f@ck elsewhere?

You shouldn't do anything out of "fear of losing her". If you find a woman you deem worthy of being faithful to, you should do it out of respect and consideration for her, and because you feel it mutually advantageous. Never out of any fear.

Isn't f@cking overrated anyway, especially when on the level of FB?

I agree with this. Squirrels has recently been saying that his sexual exploits have felt basically like masturbation to him, because of the lack of meaning involved. Back in the days when I was spinning plates (we called it "playing the field"), I also came to this same conclusion. Ultimately it was not satisfying to me because it was void of meaning, empty as it were.
Casual sex can be a pleasureable activity, and a necessary learning experience. But ultimately it was not enough for me, I wanted more.

 

[DanelMadr]

Obviously this depends to some extent on how you define "Beta". But I think most average guys would have a hard time going through life without having at least a few non-exclusive/casual type trysts.


You shouldn't do anything out of "fear of losing her". If you find a woman you deem worthy of being faithful to, you should do it out of respect and consideration for her, and because you feel it mutually advantageous. Never out of any fear.

That is what I meant.

I agree with this. Squirrels has recently been saying that his sexual exploits have felt basically like masturbation to him, because of the lack of meaning involved. Back in the days when I was spinning plates (we called it "playing the field"), I also came to this same conclusion. Ultimately it was not satisfying to me because it was void of meaning, empty as it were.
Casual sex can be a pleasureable activity, and a necessary learning experience. But ultimately it was not enough for me, I wanted more.

Threesome?

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I agree with you. However is there an opposite? Like guys playing the new acquired role of seducer?

I have no doubt that there are some guys who go from zero to PUA and then parley that into seducer-hood. I would also argue that they are the rare exceptions.

One of the biggest dangers of the PUA ideal is that it does nothing to address the root problem of AFCism (or "Beta-tude", lack of a better term). AFCs don't want to stop being AFCs, they just want their ONEitis (or their 'dream girl") to hook up with them long term and then drift back into a comfortable 'just being themselves'. In The Game even Mystery, with all his PUA prowess, degenerates into a simpering, borderline suicidal chump when he realizes that his PUA scripts do nothing in an LTR with Katya (his ONEitis). The most notorious PUA in modern history is still an AFC, because he hadn't killed that internalized mentality. He hadn't killed his inner AFC.

Another very common occurrence is the "reformed" AFC who makes progress toward becoming more DJ, and as a result gets his "dream girl", only to traumatically lose her after devolving back into an AFC once he's in an LTR with her. I'm not a big Ross Jefferies fan, but he did say something very profound once, he said "teaching PUA skills to these chumps is like giving dynamite to children." This is very true because the potential for disaster is much higher. The risk of loss is much more pronounced. Most guys want that silver bullet; the magic formula that will get them the girl, but it does nothing to prepare them for the LTR - they don't become Men, they become children with dynamite.

What is so special about bedding multiple women besides feeding the 'I can do it' part of oneself?

Whenever I read a quote like this my first impression is that the one stating it believes the primary motivation a guy has for wanting to ƒuck multiple women is some need for personal validation. As if the only reason a guy would want to bang many women was so he could brag about his numbers to his friends. This is a cliché. I can only speak for myself in this respect, but it's been my experience that the guys who're getting the most sex are usually the ones who talk about it the least.

Newsflash: Guy's like sex and with a variety of women. There may be an element of self-affirmation in doing so, but I doubt the starting point for a guy wanting to get laid begins with some internal conversation about how he needs to boost his ego. Guy's simply don't pass on sexual opportunities because they're worried about becoming too full of themselves.

I would argue that Men need to experience multiple partners in order to mature into a healthy monogamy later in life.

 

[zekko]

I would argue that Men need to experience multiple partners in order to mature into a healthy monogamy later in life.

That's probably true. What disturbs me is that this site puts so much emphasis on spinning plates that one is left with the impression that the message is "Thou shalt spin plates, and thou shalt always spin plates". That being able to "mature into a healthy monogamy later in life" is not presented, except as a chump option. THAT I strongly disagree with.

 

[DanelMadr]

I have no doubt that there are some guys who go from zero to PUA and then parley that into seducer-hood. I would also argue that they are the rare exceptions.

One of the biggest dangers of the PUA ideal is that it does nothing to address the root problem of AFCism (or "Beta-tude", lack of a better term). AFCs don't want to stop being AFCs, they just want their ONEitis (or their 'dream girl") to hook up with them long term and then drift back into a comfortable 'just being themselves'. In The Game even Mystery, with all his PUA prowess, degenerates into a simpering, borderline suicidal chump when he realizes that his PUA scripts do nothing in an LTR with Katya (his ONEitis). The most notorious PUA in modern history is still an AFC, because he hadn't killed that internalized mentality. He hadn't killed his inner AFC.

Yes, he hadn't matured. He did not get rid of that scared little boy inside.
But as you can see here, the Ego of AFC takes the PUA cloak very quickly...Nice Guy to Jerk. Before he was shielding his ego by no action, now he shields it with nexting, contempt for women and with plate spinning he has an airbag once his powers slide. Of course the former AFC will return to his old habits, because he was just acting as PUA. Meanwhile long term Jerk resorts to violence once he encounters problems.

Another very common occurrence is the "reformed" AFC who makes progress toward becoming more DJ, and as a result gets his "dream girl", only to traumatically lose her after devolving back into an AFC once he's in an LTR with her. I'm not a big Ross Jefferies fan, but he did say something very profound once, he said "teaching PUA skills to these chumps is like giving dynamite to children." This is very true because the potential for disaster is much higher. The risk of loss is much more pronounced. Most guys want that silver bullet; the magic formula that will get them the girl, but it does nothing to prepare them for the LTR - they don't become Men, they become children with dynamite.

I think, better way would be, to make a Man first and then give him a dynamite. But he wouldn't need it then, anyway. And being a Man is certainly not a silver bullet. It takes some painful introspection at least.

Whenever I read a quote like this my first impression is that the one stating it believes the primary motivation a guy has for wanting to ƒuck multiple women is some need for personal validation. As if the only reason a guy would want to bang many women was so he could brag about his numbers to his friends. This is a cliché. I can only speak for myself in this respect, but it's been my experience that the guys who're getting the most sex are usually the ones who talk about it the least.

These guys are certainly better than the average PUA, who needs to brag. But it does not change the fact, the numbers make them feel good about themselves. It is probably a distraction like drugs or alcohol to take them away from their pain. I believe they are in pain, hence there is something wrong with them...they are simply not "mature" enough.I'm not judging them but the doubt is there.

Newsflash: Guy's like sex and with a variety of women. There may be an element of self-affirmation in doing so, but I doubt the starting point for a guy wanting to get laid begins with some internal conversation about how he needs to boost his ego. Guy's simply don't pass on sexual opportunities because they're worried about becoming too full of themselves.

I would argue that Men need to experience multiple partners in order to mature into a healthy monogamy later in life.

Well, this I don't know for sure but my case is this.... ONS just don't do it for me. Eventhough I felt it would boost me. Then I realized it did not boost me and more importantly the feeling came from my ego - that little f@cker who wants his father to be proud of him. I had no internal conversation about it. That is why it is so difficult to decipher one's real motives. It just lurks there deep in ones mind.
The reason I did not enjoy ONS probably were that the whole situation is unromantic. The girls I was with just wanted to get f@cked no strings attached. Fire and forget. And I guess it just made the whole experience supermarket one. No passion, just acted lust.

 

[englishman]

I like travelling, and the idea of a women in every port.
I have old lovers in France, Germany, UK, Korea, Japan and Thailand that I still talk too.
I don't think I could be monogamous again. Thought of it gets me all anxious.

 

[yuppaz]

This is an interesting convo. Personally I have slept with a lot of women, but never really of the quality I wanted (working on it). When I had in the past, when I was getting good, but not great I did it to feel like I was good enough, to prove something to myself. Once I realized that I was turning myself into a validation *****, I stepped back and starting looking at the meaning of all this stuff. Part of it is that it's a great life skill I should be able to use forever, part of it was because ultimately I do wanna have kids and have them with more beautiful women, therefore having better looking offspring that will have an easier life. Now it's more like I just lose attraction for average girls quickly so it's not cool to them for me to pursue them because they always want more where I don't. So to even have a fair shot at being a normal dater I really have no choice but to date hotter women, which I am working on. In my little fantasy world I would have Multiples with hotties that all knew about it (Johnny Soporno style), but in the long term that wouldn't really match my goals, so maybe a hottie with lots of cash so no worries about divorce & losing anything.

I've taught guys to be better with women in the past, and still kinda do. Most of them are doing it to feed their ego's plain and simple, you can tell by the way the talk about conquests. They want to be THE MAN!!!! Some want to have a girlfriend and are having a hard time with that, some are seeing that some women aren't good girls and think that they are all *****'s so why bother getting serious at all, it's a self fulfilling prophecy cuz they attract those kind of girls.

 

[Open5]

If each perspective let's each do whatever makes them happy and has a relaxed mind to learn from each other to better their own situation.

When I was in elementary school and we went to the middle school I thought something like, "These are big people here, they must be better than me," but I quickly learned they were not any different/better than me and I worked my way to be viewed by others as someone at the top. Went to high school, even bigger people and "They must be better than me," but they were not and gradually I stood out as being one of the best even getting many awards. Then, college, a huge pond with huge people, "They have to be so much better than me and I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to make it here," and day after day I did my own thing and then it was over and I did better than most others there. Finally out in the world, and interacting with people in upper level jobs, and I keep thinking these people are not even very good to be in these positions, I can do so much better.

When I got into Game (learning the basics for a while), and then now into Seduction, especially after so many more people saying how bad divorces are, I thought most of the men in Game/Seduction were all Players4Life like we were all on the same team (like if we went out for beers we could talk about how we are all never going to get married and therefore we will never have to go through a divorce, so let's have another round), but now (surprisingly to me recently) I see that's not how most guys are. Most guys (maybe above 90%, even among those who really know Game), seem to want to find a LTR girlfriend or wife (like Rollo was explaining so well up above here). That's fine if that's what they want, and as Rollo said in his rationalmale blog today 3/9/12, Game is still important in a LTR or marriage. Therefore, most guys even after learning about Game still are geared towards practicing Game to get what this post called 1. A girlfriend or A wife. Personally, I want what this post called 2. Bang women (although for me not necessarily tons, but I'm not going to get married so hopefully for me at least eventually bang many). For me it's not about anger (I'm not angry at women, as I'm easy-going and I seek basically to enjoy many various experiences). It's not about ego (I'm mentally stable and have a positive attitude and I simply want to have sex sometimes).

 

[disgustipated]

I didn't start looking towards the "community" after by bout of Oneitis, and especially not to get her back! I never wanted to be in a situation where I felt like that again, and I knew deep down I needed to mature as a MAN. Whatever that meant I needed to do that, and I'm still working on it.

I hated not understanding why this girl hit on me but things didn't go "easy" after that. Why would she mind**** me when it was her who made the initial move? That went against the idealized image I had of women....sugar and spice and everything nice. I reached out then not because I wanted to learn some sneaky tricks to ninja her back into a relationship with me down the road, but rather (in hindsight) I was looking for a means to weed out/detect women like that AND have a strong enough frame I could hold and maintain at the very least in the beginning of a relationshp. I've always had skanks or 2-4s offering up sex so coming here or other places to learn PUA stuff wasn't for me. That stuff repulses me honestly because I know it wouldn't come off as natural for me.

Now those things I've come looking for have evolved, more into how to maintain a LTR on my terms, where I went wrong with LTR's in the past, what to accept leading up to LTRs, understanding women in general a little better while also taking a hard look at myself and what I offer versus what I should expect to get in a woman. Self improvement as a man. And it's been a long hard road.

 

[The_411]

The two "philosophies" are not mutually exclusive. It seems that too many get wrapped in thinking that they are mutually exclusive.

The spinning plates concept is simply an a manifestation of the scarcity/wanted by many mentality. It's also a way of gaining experience more quickly, being able to judge women concurrently, and determine traits that are desirable and undesirable to you. It also keeps you from getting too emotionally involved and helps removes outcome dependency.

There's nothing wrong with dating one woman, but the key is to make sure you date enough women to a) avoid the wrong women b) not extend relationships from a position of weakness c) see warning signs that a relationship is faltering d) learn what traits and behaviors you like and dislike in women e) understand when it's time to cut your losses and f) recognize a quality woman.

You may luck into a quality woman by chance but without enough experience you likely won't realize it or you'll screw it up.

Of course for some a stable relationship isn't in the cards. Neither is right or wrong it's more a matter of objective

 

[Pandora]

There is no magical pot of gold underneath the pvssy rainbow.

You do realize that saying this is the equivalent of rich people saying there is no pot of gold underneath being rich. Being rich is not all its cracked up to be. It may be true but it is difficult for an average guy like me to believe unless he has experienced it. If you did not experience hooking up with multiple 8+ women, would you believe it if some one told you that it wouldn't greatly contribute to your overall happiness?

Now it's more like I just lose attraction for average girls quickly so it's not cool to them for me to pursue them because they always want more where I don't. So to even have a fair shot at being a normal dater I really have no choice but to date hotter women, which I am working on.

This is the phase i am in now. Its almost a curse man. It really screws up average looking girls when i date and dump them becuz i am chasing something better. Its not fair to them.

 

[yuppaz]

Yup - exactly. I'm kinda fubar at the moment because I don't like not having sex and it's easy for me to hook up with girls that I consider average but still after years having some trouble with the girls I would really want (some issue with not feeling deserving enough of girls I would consider beautiful...it's me, not them with the issue... I know they are attracted to me but I can't seem to believe it deep down for whatever reason). So I sleep with girls who are clearly attracted to me and I just find ok...for a while until I get tired of it and move on. It's really not cool to those girls at all, I pretty much know it won't go anywhere but they don't know that and they seem to be very much into me. Come to think of it, it's something that's very immature of me, but it's that or spank it and hope that one day I'll get over this strange fear of really attractive women. I am more careful now a days, I won't go out of my way to meet average girls, it mostly just starts when I'm horny and they are showing buying signals and things line up just right.