Can it ever work out without a strong initial spark?

[Grizzly]

I'm a 35 yo male, never married, I read the Rational Male books (1-2).

I was thinking about this a few times before, maybe it's not really a red pill topic but generally about relationships. A few times in my life I went on a date with a girl who was attractive, intelligent but somehow I didn't feel that strong "spark" / "butterflies", that almost scary feeling you get when someone has a very strong effect on you and you just know internally that you want to be with them, sometimes even if your rational mind may have reservations about it. It's not just physical spark but also you feel like you met a soul-mate.

In an ideal situation when looking for a long time partner, you date someone who you're attracted to physically and who is also your friend (so you can do things together), you feel that initial spark, you can talk hours without noticing the passing of time. But sometimes you're not crazy about them for whatever reason, which can be that physically you're not 100% into them even though you can't really point out anything specific, or maybe talking to them doesn't flow that naturaly, some excitement is missing. They are still kind-hearted, funny, intelligent and you have a good time with them, it's just that you're not too eager going on the next date, your thinking about it if you should do it or not.

So I have 2 questions about this:
1. When you feel like that after 1-2 dates, and you're thinking about wanting to go on another date, should you automatically shut that down, or is there any point continuing in the hope that your feelings will become stronger and more decisive?

2. Continuing on that train of thought, is there ever a possibility that something that starts out like that becomes a LTR which is happy and fulfilling in every regard? The reason I'm thinking that maybe it's possible is that the initial excitement and physical attractiveness will eventually become less strong and so later on things like reliability, trust, kindness are the things that matter most which determine if a relationship lasts.. but also it feels compromising and unnatural which is usually not a good thing.. so usually I shut these things down but sometimes I wonder if that's always the right thing to do..

 

[SW15]

I think it is possible for a man to make it work without a great initial spark.

For women in the current era, the answer is "no". Women operate on "all the feelz". Today, a woman needs to feel far more initially than she needed to feel 15-25 years ago to even get a 2nd date. This is because women have full inboxes/swipe queues on swipe apps or on social media platforms.

Realize that if you are meeting a woman through a swipe app or social media platform, she'll be much more demanding and expect more of "all the feelz" right away than if you were meeting her in real life. Even if you meet a woman today through some real life method, you still might even be competing with her swipe queue and her social media DM inboxes. The best hope for a man today is to meet a woman is real life who doesn't use swipe apps and who isn't too active on social media.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Yes...or else how do you think these average dudes with hot wives/gf's exist when they aren't rich or well endowed?

Over time, women become attracted to other qualities in men. Initially it's looks, which is why OLD is mostly looks based...she doesn't know anything else about you. In a social circle, however, she is spending lots of time out with you regularly in various situations and this is where those other qualities are able to become attractive to her. So, if you want to hit above your average so to speak, your best bet is through social circle interactions.

 

[Grizzly]

Thanks I agree with those views, men can become more appealing even after the initial spark is not there for a woman.

What I want to focus on is from my view as men in general are more attracted to looks which is a big factor in the initial spark..

 

[RangerMIke]

It's possible to turn things around if there isn't that initial chemistry or 'spark'. But it's too much work, which you can not really control, and much better if you don't have that to just move on to a woman where this exists. I think it is easier for men, but for women... if she isn't 'feeling it' she just shuts down.

You might end up 'getting' a chick that isn't feeling that chemistry right at the start, but in a majority of these situations, she is really just settling for the man, based on what is going on in that women's life at the moment... and the time in that 'relationship' will be limited. You do not want to be with a woman that is settling for you. I've seen this time and time again in my over 3 decades watching relationships form and die. If it doesn't come to a crashing end... then you have a situation where you have a couple of people who live together making each other miserable 80% of the time, with brief periods of happiness. It's a sh1tty life.

 

[pipeman84]

We're all different, so there's no one size fits all answer. But if the spark is not there from the beginning, despite no obvious red flags, that in itself is a big red flag.

 

[Black Widow Void]

You raise some interesting questions/points. These are things that I've also thought about for quite some time. I don't claim to have the answers, but after a lot of analogy and thought, I've reached my own personal conclusions - which I'll share.

When I was younger, I used to feel sorry for cultures that participated in arranged marriages. I used to think that these cultures lacked the free will to 'follow their heart.' I thought that it could only bring misery; being paired with someone that you didn't choose... and to eventually have attraction for someone else - whom you'd never marry or date.

It's not that I'd want to personally be in an arranged marriage. I wouldn't. The point I'm making is that they have a higher successful marital rate. Although some of this is due to an oppressive culture, it is mainly due to a different outlook/goal toward marriage. They see their marriage as one of a partnership commitment rather than a romantic subscription.

Personally, I've (knowingly) had at least nine opportunities to marry. These women were either outspoken about their intentions or used passive/aggressive maneuvers in effort to get me to step up. There were likely others that wanted to marry that weren't aggressive. I mention this not as a braggart, but simply to offer my background with romance and women.

As to feeling 'sparks'... I felt this high with about half of the above. But it eventually faded and I know that this will also fade with women I've yet to meet. It's just like hearing a great song. It will pump you up for a while, but after repeated listens, it loses its flavor. Another example; it's like whacking off to a photo or video of a sexy woman. Eventually, we have to turn the page to another girl or watch a new video. No differently than the new song that got you pumped, the eye candy will also eventually lose its flavor. I realize that this sounds dismal and not very uplifting. Sometimes reality isn't very pretty.

At the age of 59, I am happily single. As a child, was this what I envisioned? Of course not. In our youth, we were sold on the idea that we'd meet someone and live happily ever after. I like the thought of this, but (to those of you reading this) look around at your reality. Family members, neighbors, your parents or your friends parents etc... how's their marriage working out? The older we get, the more divorces we see between these people. And of those that remained married, at least half are not happily married.

Again, "arranged marriages" have no appeal to me. However, as I've aged, I no longer feel sorry for those going through this ritual. Maybe they knew that the "high" we initially get with romance eventually fades. And that the only way to make it work is toward having common goals and a partnership.

 

[BadBoy89]

A man’s feelings don’t matter. It’s the girls feelings that matter.

Disney has done a great job brainwashing men to “connect” and “be one” and “live happily ever after” with ONE woman forever and ever. All a man needs is to be attracted to her and get her pregnant. The “spark” doesn’t really matter, as long as the man is attracted and the girl is decent can deliver a healthy child, that’s all matters.

Women are encouraged to sleep around. Women are encouraged not to marry. Women are encouraged not to submit. Women are taught not to “need a man”. Women have all the power of the law and courts and system.

So why are men looking for ”the one”.

 

[Giovanni SouthSide]

"The best hope for a man today is to meet a woman is real life who doesn't use swipe apps and who isn't too active on social media"



about 2 years ago I was seeing this girl on the occasion. nothing serious just random hangouts at my place every two weeks.
she was 30 or 31.
I was throttling the hangouts with this one because I did see some red flags peeking in the horizon even though the current was headed in the right direction

I decided to do a background screen on her on fb without her knowing. Never did we mention if we had social media.
She took out her profile picture , left it at blank and didnt post nothing for about two months. she still didn't deactivate her sh1t but it was a start. her inbox must of still been active
A month later, this h0e was back in the matrix again on full throttle.
Couldnt enjoy the purity of life without internet instant gratification.
Posted up a filtered azz self picture showing off her new nose piercing. a grip of likes in less than a day.
After that anything remotely serious with this female got tossed out the window.

2 years later she still single and posting up self pictures filtered up the azz.
The dehydration of thirst for attention is out of wack with these lizards now a days.

I have a cardinal rule in my home when I bring a girl over that no excessive phone usage is allowed.
I don't enforce it on em but I do enforce it with my words.

They start using and I assertively say with my eyebrow up with a violent smirk
"hey mama put the phone down and serve me a drink please" I already have the bottle and glasses ready on the table.
Has worked every time.
I even made one take off her iwatch sh!t was annoying.


Out of morals and code I cant take women serious anymore if they social media junkies.
Its a 180 turn off on my own dime.

they want her they can have her for free

 

[Grizzly]

A man’s feelings don’t matter. It’s the girls feelings that matter.

Disney has done a great job brainwashing men to “connect” and “be one” and “live happily ever after” with ONE woman forever and ever. All a man needs is to be attracted to her and get her pregnant. The “spark” doesn’t really matter, as long as the man is attracted and the girl is decent can deliver a healthy child, that’s all matters.

Women are encouraged to sleep around. Women are encouraged not to marry. Women are encouraged not to submit. Women are taught not to “need a man”. Women have all the power of the law and courts and system.

So why are men looking for ”the one”.

I'm over "oneitis" for a while now, books and some painful experiences helped with that I'm not looking to meet "the one" who I will surely want to live the rest of my life with. In fact I'm very well off by myself at times and currently I'm not a 100% decided on wanting to have children or not.
I'm just thinking in terms of LTRs, so things that last at least a good couple of years and maybe have potential for me.

I think I'm leaning towards that if the physical attraction is strongly there then it should be explored even if you have doubts about the sparks..a couple of weeks or months will probably tell if it becomes boring anyway..

 

[Grizzly]

You raise some interesting questions/points. These are things that I've also thought about for quite some time. I don't claim to have the answers, but after a lot of analogy and thought, I've reached my own personal conclusions - which I'll share.

When I was younger, I used to feel sorry for cultures that participated in arranged marriages. I used to think that these cultures lacked the free will to 'follow their heart.' I thought that it could only bring misery; being paired with someone that you didn't choose... and to eventually have attraction for someone else - whom you'd never marry or date.

It's not that I'd want to personally be in an arranged marriage. I wouldn't. The point I'm making is that they have a higher successful marital rate. Although some of this is due to an oppressive culture, it is mainly due to a different outlook/goal toward marriage. They see their marriage as one of a partnership commitment rather than a romantic subscription.

Personally, I've (knowingly) had at least nine opportunities to marry. These women were either outspoken about their intentions or used passive/aggressive maneuvers in effort to get me to step up. There were likely others that wanted to marry that weren't aggressive. I mention this not as a braggart, but simply to offer my background with romance and women.

As to feeling 'sparks'... I felt this high with about half of the above. But it eventually faded and I know that this will also fade with women I've yet to meet. It's just like hearing a great song. It will pump you up for a while, but after repeated listens, it loses its flavor. Another example; it's like whacking off to a photo or video of a sexy woman. Eventually, we have to turn the page to another girl or watch a new video. No differently than the new song that got you pumped, the eye candy will also eventually lose its flavor. I realize that this sounds dismal and not very uplifting. Sometimes reality isn't very pretty.

At the age of 59, I am happily single. As a child, was this what I envisioned? Of course not. In our youth, we were sold on the idea that we'd meet someone and live happily ever after. I like the thought of this, but (to those of you reading this) look around at your reality. Family members, neighbors, your parents or your friends parents etc... how's their marriage working out? The older we get, the more divorces we see between these people. And of those that remained married, at least half are not happily married.

Again, "arranged marriages" have no appeal to me. However, as I've aged, I no longer feel sorry for those going through this ritual. Maybe they knew that the "high" we initially get with romance eventually fades. And that the only way to make it work is toward having common goals and a partnership.

Arranged marriages are interesting and I agree the mindset people have going into one is different: they know it kind of has to work and maybe they have lower expectations, so anything on top is a gift. While in western culture the first time people have doubts they leave the whole thing without even trying to see if it can be worked on.

And yes, my reasoning is exactly that if that initial spark fades, then in the long run in doesn't matter too much if it was there in the first place or not..but this is dangerious territory as you don't want to get together with someone if you're going to be checking out other girls from day 1 even if you're with her because you're doubting your decision.

Out of curiosity, do you have any regrets or you're 100% comfortable with how things played out?

 

[Stanley]

that almost scary feeling you get when someone has a very strong effect on you and you just know internally that you want to be with them, sometimes even if your rational mind may have reservations about it. It's not just physical spark but also you feel like you met a soul-mate.

In my experience each time I've felt that gut wrenching anxiety driven spark it was a roller coaster.

The girls I dated that gave me that feeling constantly messed with my head and had the highest highs and lowest lows. For me that gut feeling is now more of a warning or caution towards that person. Many a time the girls that made me feel that way in the past later turned out to be your typical BPD, Cluster B or whatever else you wanna label it as.... I attracted these girls like crazy and at times was attracted to these women. It was like a drug and to this day I don't know why I drew them in and still do...

Now when I get that 'scary feeling' I listen to it. If I am feeling something so intensely I step back and try to be as rational as possible. Remove myself and think objectively about why I feel this way about someone who I likely don't even know very well. Oftentimes, it is infatuation or extreme physical attraction. That initial spark in my eyes is simply an expression of intense emotion of desire conscious or subconsciously. That is how women gauge men nowadays, it is all about the vibe and the 'feels'. I think men should value and prioritize other things about the girl. I believe The man should be able to detach and not give into that emotional state especially early on.

I don't think that spark is necessary on the guys end to have a meaningful lasting relationship. Overall i'd say chemistry and compatibility is paramount to any successful relationship period. Can't speak for the girls on that one though, but maybe some of the female posters can chime in. I've had great relationships and casual with women I felt very little towards initially which later developed into feelings or nothing at all. The ones with that intense spark all ended horribly and taught me valuable lessons on vetting and being aware of my emotional states. Doesn't mean one day that spark will be present and things go well, but I will remain cautious until then...

1. When you feel like that after 1-2 dates, and you're thinking about wanting to go on another date, should you automatically shut that down, or is there any point continuing in the hope that your feelings will become stronger and more decisive?

2. Continuing on that train of thought, is there ever a possibility that something that starts out like that becomes a LTR which is happy and fulfilling in every regard? The reason I'm thinking that maybe it's possible is that the initial excitement and physical attractiveness will eventually become less strong and so later on things like reliability, trust, kindness are the things that matter most which determine if a relationship lasts.. but also it feels compromising and unnatural which is usually not a good thing.. so usually I shut these things down but sometimes I wonder if that's always the right thing to do..

I think you should feel all of your feelings and process them.

Assess what you want. Understand if you're willing to be 'patient'. And reflect on whether or not you see some potential for something. Whether it be a fling, relationship or anything else... Just be pragmatic with it and understand your own want and ability to invest in something. If i'm not feeling it with a girl after the first few interactions I almost always bail out, but not always. Context matters and every person is different so it can't be treated as a catch all. Not long ago a girl I had no interest in aside from sexual attraction later became a girl I very much wanted to be with and have a relationship. After some passage of time my views on her changed once again, I stepped away to process and thereafter remove those feelings. Also, being cognizant of the honeymoon phase and how it affects a burgeoning relationship is important for a man. Attraction and relationships are in a constant state of flux.

Pragmatism should be employed from the onset in my opinion.

 

[manfrombelow]

That "strong initial spark" OP mentioned is something that is, from my experience, mutually perceived by both parties.

In nearly 100% of my first dates where I truly felt "the spark," I ended up having sex or at least some intense tongue kiss with the women.

But, in 100% of my 1st dates where I didn't feel "the spark," I got nothing that day and any day after, or worse, a girl left me in the middle of the 1st date (please read my past post about it).

So yeah, that "strong initial spark" is something you must have in order to have real intimacy with the woman (I'm not talking about marriages or/and relationships cause they are too far).

 

[Skyline]

I'm a 35 yo male, never married, I read the Rational Male books (1-2).

I was thinking about this a few times before, maybe it's not really a red pill topic but generally about relationships. A few times in my life I went on a date with a girl who was attractive, intelligent but somehow I didn't feel that strong "spark" / "butterflies", that almost scary feeling you get when someone has a very strong effect on you and you just know internally that you want to be with them, sometimes even if your rational mind may have reservations about it. It's not just physical spark but also you feel like you met a soul-mate.

In an ideal situation when looking for a long time partner, you date someone who you're attracted to physically and who is also your friend (so you can do things together), you feel that initial spark, you can talk hours without noticing the passing of time. But sometimes you're not crazy about them for whatever reason, which can be that physically you're not 100% into them even though you can't really point out anything specific, or maybe talking to them doesn't flow that naturaly, some excitement is missing. They are still kind-hearted, funny, intelligent and you have a good time with them, it's just that you're not too eager going on the next date, your thinking about it if you should do it or not.

So I have 2 questions about this:
1. When you feel like that after 1-2 dates, and you're thinking about wanting to go on another date, should you automatically shut that down, or is there any point continuing in the hope that your feelings will become stronger and more decisive?

2. Continuing on that train of thought, is there ever a possibility that something that starts out like that becomes a LTR which is happy and fulfilling in every regard? The reason I'm thinking that maybe it's possible is that the initial excitement and physical attractiveness will eventually become less strong and so later on things like reliability, trust, kindness are the things that matter most which determine if a relationship lasts.. but also it feels compromising and unnatural which is usually not a good thing.. so usually I shut these things down but sometimes I wonder if that's always the right thing to do..

In my experience, if there’s no big spark then it’s not worth it. If you’re more interested than she is then she’s probably talking to someone else. It’s really that simple.

Just don’t confuse this with her being shy. I know a lot of people here will tell you to escalate at every single possible interaction but it isn’t the play. Keep your cool and you will get results.