Can I get to 8% with this diet/routine?

MikeBrown30

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Jariel said:
I've not tried this so I won't say it doesn't work, but generally any period of fasting will send your body into emergency mode causing it to feed off muscle tissue and store calories as fat.
I respect your posts about how your body has transformed over the years (good and the bad), but fasting does not send your body into emergency mode. This only begins to happen after about 72 hours or so. Other benefits of fasting include:

• Reduced blood glucose and insulin levels (markers of improved health)
• Increased fatty acid oxidation
• Maintenance of lean mass
• Reduced inflammation
• Reduced oxidative damage
• Increased cellular stress resistance (especially of the heart and brain)
• Decreased risks associated with degenerative diseases of aging (cancers, heart diseases, diabetes, Alzheimers)

Decreased blood glucose levels:
During the entire 24 fast, blood sugar slowly lowers itself, but remains at normal non-hypoglycemic levels. Additionally, by fasting for 2 days out of 7 during a week, you automatically reduce your sugar intake by about 30% and consequently reduce your glucose levels.

Decreased insulin levels & increased insulin sensitivity:
Increased insulin levels help the body store the energy in food as glycogen and fat. Twenty four hours of fasting has been shown to drastically reduce insulin levels. Insulin causes you to store extra water, so when insulin is low, you also tend to lose water.


Increased lipolysis and fat oxidation:
High sugar levels create more insulin release, which blocks growth hormones (GH). When GH are blocked we cannot burn body fat. Research shows that we burn most fat after fasting for 18 hours, with the effect leveling off after 30 hours.

Increased nor epinephrine and epinephrine levels:
Fasting increases the amounts of both of nor epinephrine and epinephrine, which are responsible for the feeling of being alert and awake. These hormones trigger the release of glucose and fat burning.

Increased Glucagon levels:
Glucagon is one of the dominant hormones in the fasted state that causes fat burning. Its primary role is to keep our blood sugar levels steady.

Increased growth hormone levels:
Short-term fasting can increase growth hormone levels by nearly six fold. Hollywood celebrities are taking growth hormones because it helps them burn fat, build muscle, and supposedly keep them young because of their ‘anti-aging’ effects. Brad Pilon says that if you want large increases in the amount of growth hormone released in your body, all you have to do is fast! Fasting triggers the “growth hormone response” and this response is what prevents us from losing muscle while we fast keeping our metabolism elevated.

Other Benefits of Intermittent Fasting:
Besides the positive cognitive benefits, such as improved focus and mental clarity, fasting can help with many medical conditions. Fasting is one of the fastest ways to increase elimination of wastes and enhance the healing processes of the body. It has been used with success in clinical research on people who suffer from asthma, and has been shown to lower inflammation, one of the major factors for aging. Short-term fasting can help improve immune function by lowering the blood sugar levels, particularly during the first twenty-four to forty-eight hours of an acute infectious illness. Biochemist Marc Hellerstein believes intermittent fasting can also achieve the same ends of delaying or preventing cancer and other degenerative diseases.

*The text in Italics is based off of the "Eat, Stop, Eat" concept, which is a full 24 hour fast. I don't believe this to be optimal for athletes or those of us who weight train, are involved in combat sports etc.
 

Jariel

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As I said, I haven't tried intermittent fasting so I won't argue against it. I believe it's important to have first hand experience before making judgements, but it just seems like a scary concept to me as I once fvcked myself up by fasting for 5 days. Obviously 24 hours wouldn't have the same effect, but I'm still very cautious.

Obviously all those benefits sounds fantastic, but almost every crash diet/scam out there promises all this stuff. I really need to see some proof.

Unfortunately when I searched for some reviews and evidence of this working I found a lot of dodgy promos on youtube by people who appeared to have been paid for their reviews...and most of them were not in good shape.

I am open minded if I can see some proof of these claims, but I'd certainly not try anything until then. At least with my low carb, high protein diet, I've got first hand results to show for it.
 

MikeBrown30

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Yeah, leave fasting for 5 days+ to the monks.

I'm curious to see these reviews you found on Youtube, I really haven't seen any scammers with Intermittent Fasting. I know that Brad Pilon has an ebook on his webpage (Eat, Stop, Eat), that's about the only money making aspect I've seen.

Leangains.com is probably the best source of information, in regards to diet guidelines, testimonials (with progress pics). The owner (Martin Berkhan) is a no bullsh1t dude. Read his article about about "Fvckarounditis" - http://www.leangains.com/2011/09/****arounditis.html you need to input the F word yourself.

The Facebook page is pretty active, with other IF'ers sharing recipes, scientific studies proving the benefits of IF and good general discussion.

The basic premise is, you fast for 16 hours, then have an eating window for the remaining hours of the day, in which you eat your caloric requirements depending on your goals. You can get your calories in 2 meals, 5 meals, 10 meals if you really want, most find it satisfying to eat 2-3 huge ass meals (How many people do you see eating a 1000-1500 cal meal while cutting, or having 300g worth of carbs in a day?)

On workout days, you always have your biggest meal after you train. Protein is kept moderately high, carbs are high (mostly from starchy sources), and fat is kept as low as possible. Your caloric intake can either be a surplus, or at maintenance even if you are dieting down, let's say +20% over your TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure).

On rest days, protein is kept moderately high, carbs are lower, let's say 50-100g (mostly from fruit, fibrous vegetables, dairy etc) and fat is increased. Calories are reduced on rest days. Reduced by how much? This depends on your goals, and how fast you want to get there. A few examples of calorie cycling:

For someone looking to do a body re-composition:
+20% on W/O days -20% on rest days, I think you will be at a small deficit at the end of the week, but it is neglible. The theory behind this is for your body to use that surplus of calories to fuel recovery and growth on training days.

Slowish weight loss:
Maintenance on W/O days, -20% rest days
Alternate: +20% W/O days, -40% rest days

Faster weight loss:
-10% W/O, -30% rest days

Lean Massing (Slow bulk):

W/O +20%, rest -10%

There are some other guidelines to follow, such as nutrition timing pre-workout, but I'll get into it if you choose to give it a try.

All I can say is to give it a shot for a month or so, and see how you get along. It might take a week or so for your appetite to adjust, but you should be good once this period passes.
 

marmel75

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Jariel said:
As I said, I haven't tried intermittent fasting so I won't argue against it. I believe it's important to have first hand experience before making judgements, but it just seems like a scary concept to me as I once fvcked myself up by fasting for 5 days. Obviously 24 hours wouldn't have the same effect, but I'm still very cautious.

Obviously all those benefits sounds fantastic, but almost every crash diet/scam out there promises all this stuff. I really need to see some proof.

Unfortunately when I searched for some reviews and evidence of this working I found a lot of dodgy promos on youtube by people who appeared to have been paid for their reviews...and most of them were not in good shape.

I am open minded if I can see some proof of these claims, but I'd certainly not try anything until then. At least with my low carb, high protein diet, I've got first hand results to show for it.
Martin Berkan of Leangains, Elliot Hulse of LeanHybridMuscle, Rob Regish of The Blueprint, Dr. Mercola, Brad Pilon of Eat,Stop,Eat and Ori Hofmekler of The Warrior Diet are all big proponents of fasting of some type....
 

Jariel

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I'm gonna pass on that one. What I'm doing is working for me and I don't want to take any chances losing the muscle I've worked so hard to gain.

That said, a lot of the benefits sound like those you would get from basic detoxing. Rather than fast then binge, I'd much rather eat clean foods and drink a lot of water through the day.

Another issue I have with this is that you're spiking your insulin through the roof when you eat, then you're expected to go without food for 16 hours. That's gonna cause you to go crazy and you're body is going to be screaming out for carbs/sugar every day. At least by cutting out all simple carbs and reducing your overall carb intake, you can get get the addiction out of your system and adapt.
 

marmel75

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Jariel said:
I'm gonna pass on that one. What I'm doing is working for me and I don't want to take any chances losing the muscle I've worked so hard to gain.

That said, a lot of the benefits sound like those you would get from basic detoxing. Rather than fast then binge, I'd much rather eat clean foods and drink a lot of water through the day.

Another issue I have with this is that you're spiking your insulin through the roof when you eat, then you're expected to go without food for 16 hours. That's gonna cause you to go crazy and you're body is going to be screaming out for carbs/sugar every day. At least by cutting out all simple carbs and reducing your overall carb intake, you can get get the addiction out of your system and adapt.
Its not for everyone, I will admit, but I am a big proponent of it and what it has done. Your understanding of the way things work is somewhat, well for lack of a better term that I can think of, lacking.

When you fast, your body releases bursts of growth hormone every few hours, peaking around 18-24 hours. At this point, you will have up to 600% more growth hormone than normal floating around in your system. Growth hormone is an amplifying hormone. It amplifies the effects of Testosterone(think of getting a 2x, 3x, 4x, etc in a video game).

In fact, research has shown that not only does fasting not casuse you to lose muscle, it actually makes muscles stronger and harder because it increases the mitochondria in the cells(from biology class, they are the powerhouse of the cell). Pertinent study:

http://www.ergo-log.com/fastingeod.html

You fail to understand that we still have the basic settings that cavemen had and are biologically virtually unchanged. Do you think the cavemen sat around all day and ate every few hours? I doubt it. They were likely out hunting and gathering during the daylight hours and then doing most of their eating at night.

Another very important aspect is the improved insulin sensitivity profiles. Insulin is the most anabolic hormone we have(4 times as anabolic as Testosterone), and is a key in getting nutrients into the muscle cells post-training. The more sensitive the body is to insulin, the easier that can happen, the less insulin needs to be produced, and the quicker it gets out of your system(a key to be able to lose fat). You say that insulin is being spiked through the roof when you eat, but the more fasting you do, the less the insulin is going to spike, because the less of it is needed since the cells respond better to it.

Again, the thinking that the body is so poorly designed that it will automatically start using muscle for fuel after a relatively short time of no food is laughable, goes completely against every study that has been conducted since the 1940s(Intermittent fasting is one of the most studied mechanisms and the results are always the same), and really is kind of ridiculous to have people even thinking in a day and age where plenty of research and studies are available online that fly in the face of that. Also, considering the fact that many of the proponents of this are extremely big and muscular, it obviously isn't true.

I'm 5'8" 200 lbs and 14% BF(and dropping quickly) and am pretty big(50" chest, 17" arms), and I have actually gained size while doing fasting...
 

Jariel

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marmel75 said:
Your understanding of the way things work is somewhat, well for lack of a better term that I can think of, lacking.
Actually I'd say I was one of the better experienced guys on this forum when it comes to diet, fatloss and muscle growth since I have achieved the very goals most men seek. I've gone from being obese to being ripped and muscular.

As I said, my method works.


When you fast, your body releases bursts of growth hormone every few hours, peaking around 18-24 hours. At this point, you will have up to 600% more growth hormone than normal floating around in your system. Growth hormone is an amplifying hormone. It amplifies the effects of Testosterone(think of getting a 2x, 3x, 4x, etc in a video game).
Sounds great, but I'm not buying it.

You fail to understand that we still have the basic settings that cavemen had and are biologically virtually unchanged. Do you think the cavemen sat around all day and ate every few hours? I doubt it. They were likely out hunting and gathering during the daylight hours and then doing most of their eating at night.
But I want to look like an underwear model, not a caveman. Even though our biology remains very similar, we are way more educated now.

Again, the thinking that the body is so poorly designed that it will automatically start using muscle for fuel after a relatively short time of no food is laughable
So why do bodybuilders swear by whey protein and simple carbs after a workout?

Also, considering the fact that many of the proponents of this are extremely big and muscular, it obviously isn't true.
That's the part I'm struggling to find. I don't know any famous bodybuilders who promote this and most of the people I've seen who are trying this out and giving it positive reviews look quite emaciated or just not too healthy.

http://youtu.be/e_kIA9TfsFA?t=47s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0x3qPmRhDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMiBX_VTv5k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwrdphaEAl0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyNTTY2zyrw



I'm not saying it doesn't work. You could be right about every fact you have written here, but what I'm saying is that I've not seen anything to convince me. Whereas a high protein/moderate to low carb diet has a lot of support, a lot of success stories and it's worked for me.
 

marmel75

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Jariel,

Protein and carbs taken after a workout are a nobrainer since you have between 30-60 minutes to take advantage of the anabolic window that opens after lifting. Noone is saying not to do that. I would never skip those..it would basically waste what I did at the gym.

Bodybuilders are of no interest to me and unless you are a genetic freak and take anabolic steroids they should be of no interest to anyone else either. They could do a set of 20 pushups and build more muscle than guys busting their butts at the gym. Anything they do works, because of how steroids enhance muscle growth and allows it to continue even in an exhausted state. What works best for them will likely not work best for a normal person.

The fact that you are not buying multiple repeated studies makes you seem like one of those people who refused to believe the world isn't flat. Fortunately, the truth remains the truth regardless of your belief in it. Science and research are continually coming up with better ways of doing things, and hormonal manipulation to positively effect body composition is one of those things...
 

Jariel

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marmel75 said:
The fact that you are not buying multiple repeated studies makes you seem like one of those people who refused to believe the world isn't flat. Fortunately, the truth remains the truth regardless of your belief in it. Science and research are continually coming up with better ways of doing things, and hormonal manipulation to positively effect body composition is one of those things...
Not at all. It's called Socratic thinking. I just don't take the word of a scientist or academic as indisputable truth.

Research can prove whatever one wants it to prove. I've seen how studies are manipulated and how contradictory facts are conveniently overlooked. I've seen studies that support the theory that anything from chocolate to mistletoe can cure cancer and there are even studies to back up aliens visiting earth or ghosts.

Theory is always good to know, but ultimately for me seeing is believing.
 

MikeBrown30

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Wow, just go to leangains.com and look at the progress pictures. It is real world experience backed up by science.

You will not lose your gains at all. Although you have lost them in the past, so it shouldn't be a major shock if it were to happen again. What have you got to lose by trying IF for a month?
 

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Jariel

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MikeBrown30 said:
Wow, just go to leangains.com and look at the progress pictures. It is real world experience backed up by science.

You will not lose your gains at all. Although you have lost them in the past, so it shouldn't be a major shock if it were to happen again. What have you got to lose by trying IF for a month?
Again, I think a degree of healthy scepticism is wise here. I'm not convinced by those testimonals since they can be bought or fabricated. How many times have you seen guys like Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman advertising supplements or new cutting edge workout plans that has no relation to their success?

Plus it's blatant adverts like this that really make me cautious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEPIO9444fw


That said, I will try and download one of these programs via a torrent or something, take a look and judge it from there.

But generally, I will never try any "new" or "cutting edge" diet...or supplement for that matter. I've had way too many bad experiences there and would rather just wait until it's more widely accepted.
 

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Eat, Stop, Eat is not optimal for an athlete. I take testimonials with a grain of salt IF they are selling a product as well. The owner of Leangains is not selling anything. Read this FAQ:

http://examine.com/leangains-faq/

And if you want another free source of information, go to http://rippedbody.jp/

All the information given on those sites are free, no need to buy any books or spend money.

And by the way, Leangains/Intermittent Fasting isn't for the juice monkeys, so don't bring them, or any of their supplement crap in here.
 

Jariel

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I actually checked those links. It does sound impressive, but not really good for me. There are way too many carbs for my liking. I have high sensitivity to carbs, so would wake up every day bloated with water retention (one of the main benefits of low carb diets for me).

The most appealing part of this diet for me was the promise of extra growth hormones being released and the suggestion you can build muscle and drop fat, but this is not backed up at all. Technically these people should be heavier or around the same weight after their diet if they are gaining muscle, but they are actually much lighter and all quite thin. So basically they drop fat and lose muscle the same as any other cutting diet.

Something I find really confusing is that he says you have an 8hr window to eat. Well taking sleep into consideration, this is more or less the equivalent of skipping breakfast and then pigging out later, which is just your average bad eating habits that many people do every day.

Assuming it works, it might be ok for people who have failed other diets and who aren't particularly bothered about bodybuilding, but I think there are much easier and more effective ways to diet.
 

MikeBrown30

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Jariel said:
1.Technically these people should be heavier or around the same weight after their diet if they are gaining muscle, but they are actually much lighter and all quite thin. So basically they drop fat and lose muscle the same as any other cutting diet.

2.Something I find really confusing is that he says you have an 8hr window to eat. Well taking sleep into consideration, this is more or less the equivalent of skipping breakfast and then pigging out later, which is just your average bad eating habits that many people do every day.

3.Assuming it works, it might be ok for people who have failed other diets and who aren't particularly bothered about bodybuilding, but I think there are much easier and more effective ways to diet.
1. Incorrect. When people are cutting or doing a body recomposition, any muscle retained/gained/loss is measured by your strength. If your strength stayed the same or went up a little bit, and you look quite thin, you were probably overestimating how much lean body mass you actually had. Of course a significant loss of strength would indicate muscle loss.

2. Yes, you skip breakfast, that is the whole point of it. It is easier for most people to fast for x amount of time instead of trying to eat 6 meals of 300cals.

Eg. Someone needs to ingest 1800 cals per day to lose weight.

6 meals x 300 cals
or
3 meals x 600 cals
or
2 meals x 900 cals

Which do you think will leave you feeling more satiated?

And skipping breakfast is not a bad habit. The only bad habits are: lack of exercise/physical activity and poor understanding of the caloric values of food. Seriously, you could eat McDonalds every single fvcking day, as long as you get enough protein, eat under maintenence and you will lose weight.

Sure, you may get hungry, because you need to eat less food to get x amount of calories, but it still comes down to calories consumed, it does not matter if it's processed or not. I avoid processed food because it is just garbage for your body, nothing to do with calories.

Eg:
2 Big Macs (not sure of food weight) = 986 calories
1kg of sweet potato = 700 calories

Which will leave you more satisfied?

3. Look, it's just another method of eating. It is for those people who don't have time to eat or cook/prepare 6 meals a day. The basic premise is that your body does not always need food in the stomach. It's just trying to cut through the fitness/bodybuilding/supplement industry bullsh1t.

"Only 30g of protein can be absorbed at once"
"Eat some source of protein every 2.5-3 hours other wise you will lose your gainzzz!!"
"You need whey straight after the last rep of your workout, otherwise you will start going catabolic!!"
"Eat breakfast or your metabolism will slow to a crawl"

I'm surprised these dudes don't have an IV drip of protein hooked up to themselves.

Just try it Jariel, who knows, you might like to eat 1000 calorie meals everyday ;) You can still keep your carbs lowish though if you feel that they make you that bloated.
 
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Jariel

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All the theory, promises and scientific "facts" aside, this intermittent fasting is actually how I used to eat for many years before I decided to clean up my diet and get in shape.

I know a lot of girls on Weightwatchers who do this too...they eat all their "points" in one or two sittings, then try to make up for it by fasting the rest of the day.

Sorry man, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I've seen/experienced too much evidence against this diet for my liking. I'm a lot more satisfied and have better results from my 5-6 small meals per day.
 

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nmartinez12443 said:
Day 1- chest/shoulder- bench/incline dumbells/barbell shrugs/ overhead barbell press/ pek dek/ dumbell flys with push ups/ lat raises.
(generally I run 35 minutes low intensity like 3 hours later with 200 situps)

Day 2- back/arms- dead lifts/bent over row/t bar row/ bent over lat raises
weighted dips/tricep pull down/barbell curl/ dumbell curls.

(generally I run 35 minutes low intensity like 3 hours with 200 situps)

Day 3- legs/abs- squats/lunges/leg press/ leg curl/ leg ext (light weight)
(i usually don't run)

Day 4- either I take this day completely off or sometimes I walk at 7 incline with 3.2-3.5 speed.

Repeat

I'd say stop doing low intensity runs. The biomechanics are all wrong (like heel strikes instead of landing on the ball of the foot). Any aerobic activity is all the same, so if you must run, run at the very fastest you can go and barely be able to keep your breath. Whatever you do, never ever do high impact aerobics any two days in a row. It'll tear up your hips, knees, ankles, and so on.
 

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try looking into cross fit workouts, their more cardio based as opposed to straight weight lifting, ive been doing it for the past 2 years and ive gained significant muscle mass (although not as much as u would when lifting weights), and my cardio has gone through the roof. its also a lot harder mentally, so make sure not to give up after ur first workout. as a diet, u seem to be doing alright and u got some good tips here, although my fitness teacher follows the paleo diet or caveman diet, i dont believe its as effective at weight loss, but will improve ur performance and ull get better times on ur WODs. just make sure to mix up ur workouts so u never really know wat to expect and whatever u decide to do, make sure u like it so u can stay motivated
 
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