Can BPD woman really change?

[Scars]

I just want to clarify quickly that I have no intention of crawling back to my garbage BPD ex, and this isn't some attempt to self-rationalize into getting back with her. However, if you haven't noticed lately I have been extremely interested on the subject, and doing a lot of research, I find it fascinating in a way. I guess I'm trying to learn as much of it as possible so I don't ever find myself in the same situation again.

However, something did happen last night. I was at a party/kickback and there was guy there who is kinda a friend/acquaintance none the less. But half way through the night he just randomly says "You dated <name right>?" I said yeah, why. He says "oh, it's funny because you fvcked my girlfriend and I fvcked her too". I wasn't even really sure of how to react to his statement I just said "Gross." and kinda laughed it off. Then he says "we're blood brothers man!" (superbad reference.) He was kinda intoxicated, and not really sure why he had to even say it. I don't really think about my ex often at all, only when I'm doing research, and when I'm relating to other stories it's always in disgust/hatred. But for some reason, what he said struck a nerve in me. I don't want to say that I still care somewhat, that's probably what it is, but in all actuality I truly hate my ex. She has tried to contact me several times sense our break up (i went NC immediately right after, and still sticking to it.) she called me on another number and when she told me who she was I said "I'm driving right now, can I just call you later?" complete lie btw, and then I blocked that number as well.

But anyway.. the reason I'm asking is because towards the end of our relationship when things were getting really rocky and crazy (her punching me in the face, intense mood swings, accusing me of cheating constantly, over indulging on alcohol, and catching her in lies several times), she would often bring up that we should see a "relationship counselor" or a therapist we could both speak to. Thinking back on it now, maybe it was her lame attempt and trying to entice me into staying on her damaging and wrecking path. However, unlike most guys who get caught into a BPD's web I remained a man the whole time, never took her ****, was almost abusive to her at times, and I was always the one who broke up and left with her, but it was never without reason. Most of the time it was when I caught her in a lie, however, you know their seduction is very enticing, and the sex was amazing, so I always sucked back in, not without a fight though. I'd usually make her my "friend" or "FWB" until she tried to lay the label on again. But anyway, why would she bring up seeing a therapist? She even admitted that she thinks she may have something wrong with her, and has identified to it several times, and for awhile it actually seemed like she generally wanted some help. Perhaps it was my brutal honesty of telling her she is a nutcase, and never believing her detachment from the word stories. Towards the end when she tried to play her sympathy bullsh!t I'd often just be like shut up b!tch, or just ignore her. My patience got very thing, so when she acted up she knew I would just dissappear. She started having better behaivor during this time, but it didn't stop her lying or cheating. But anyway, I feel like I'm running in circles now. Do you think a BPD woman can really change? I have no intention of getting involved with one again, unless it's strictly sex (not including my ex though. never, ever again.) but I have friends who I think might be dating one, and even have a few potential love interests that strike me as borderline as well, is there any hope? Or none at all?

-Scars

 

[Buddha_Mind]

I am in the encampment that all people can change.

But change is a choice -- takes action, and is not easy.

Most people think changing is a simple overnight thing -- it is an entire reprogramming of oneself -- an entire change in self-behavior...all sorts of cascading changes..

So yes, can some crazy BPD in her 20's "normalize" herself? Sure. But it'll take some work. They have to want it. There are countless examples of people who have really dealt with/been through some sh!t. I am an optimist in the sense I really believe people can grow and change into their later adulthood...you at age 20 doesn't have to be you at age 40...but it doesn't happen magically, it has to be a conscious choice that is worked on continually.

 

[Beowolf]

I think behavior modification therapy would cure these sick chicks if they went to one of those countries where they could be thrown in prison, beaten, or stoned to death.

 

[Die Hard]

Give up your hopes... They can improve somewhat AT THE MOST. A real change is basically impossible. Their sickness isn't a part of them, it IS them. It's so deeply rooted in their personality, they would basically have to die and be reborn into a total new person. It's like cancer, you can remove it when it's in one specific part of the body but when it's spread all over your body, you basically have to destroy the whole body to get rid of the cancer. Replace cancer and body with BPD and personality...it's the same thing.

Never say never, it's not impossible by definition and there have been cases that cured. But realistically, I'd say there's only a 1% chance for them to change, which is basically NO chance.

The ability to recognize the fact that something's wrong with them, means nothing. Not even the initial WILLINGNESS to go in treatment with a therapist means anything. Been there, done that, it made no difference.

Your friends with their potential love interests WILL NOT get anywhere.

 

[SupaPowa]

What does BPD stand for?

 

[macagent]

Borderline Personality Disorder

 

[penkitten]

i do not believe they can change. it's something that is genetically built into their dna. therapy or meds might help issues or may even hinder and mask them.... but you are what you are. no one can change their dna.

 

[Colossus]

Not doubting you or your experience Scars....but I find it curious that the members of this forum seem to have a franchise on finding the 1-2% of the population (reference) that has clinical BPD.

I think it's more likely that guys are meeting the Bipolars (mood disorder) and the rest of the cluster B personality spectrum (histrionic, narcissistic, antisocial).

 

[wait_out]

It gets better with time. Like upon entering middle age.

It's a mental illness. The hate for BPD girls is misplaced... but so is the hope that it's going to get better, or that it's a choice to get better. Maybe some girls are fundamentally good underneath the crazy, maybe some aren't, but it's an academic thought. You can't change it, they can't change it, and all that can be done is managing symptoms. Trying to stay close with these girls is self-destructive (ie. Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald, though she was actually diagnosed as schizophrenic).

I actually found this forum trying to research BPD, so that could be a factor Colossus.

 

[Scars]

Well I've already brushed upon my "theory" and I won't get into too much detail about it, but I believe a lot of men on this site attract these parasites unknowingly.

Also, I believe the scientific census of %1-2 is inaccurate. That's only woman who are clinically diagnosed with the disorder. Most aren't. They aren't really breaking laws and most therapists aren't educated about the disorder, or they get misdiagnosed with something else like depression, bi-polar, suicidal, or PTSD (labeled as victims of sexual abuse etc..)

Regardless, it seems like we are attracting a lot of unhealthy woman. Is it society declining as a whole? Or is it PUA material like this that attracts them to us like magnets?

-Scars

 

[K2000kidd]

I have to agree that PUA tactics in general seem to attract the very women we want to avoid. Bipolar, BPD, Histrionic, low self esteem chicks go nuts for a good neg followed by little push/pull throw in some tight game and they will do ANYTHNG to win you over. The fact they are hot and usually insane in the sack makes it alot harder for us to say no

 

[5string]

Oh sh!t Scars! You are being hoovered! You know what that means and why a BPD does it. I'll just tell you straight up. BPD's will give you the most amazing sex you have ever had. That's what it is huh? Admit it right now. That poon is so good you can't let it go. But you need to.

Your manhood and sanity is at stake brother.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I can only speak from my own BPD experience, but the BPD I was involved with is still EXACTLY the same person as when I left her 17 years ago. I'm not making that up. At 43 she still lives with her equally neurotic mother, still has an almost childlike attachment to "disney things", doesn't drive, sporadic employment, never married, idolizes celebrities, zealously religious, etc. It's like she never matured past adolescence.

When I finally managed to rip myself away from her, there was a part of me that couldn't believe she was actually, clinically, neurotic. There was no BPD diagnosis in 1993. In fact I believed it was my own fault she was so ƒucked up. But gradually I realized she needed help. I can't begin to relate how shocking it was for me to read about BPD while I was doing case studies for my psych degree in the early 2000's. It was an "oh my God" moment. Now, after 17 years I fully understand her psychosis, and I can still see it present.

 

[The_411]

I'm not sure where the 1-2% number comes from but the last estimate was 17.9 million people in North America and North America is ~330 million people. Not to mention that the 17.9 million figure is thought to be gross underestimate as one of the hall marks of BPD is a strongly ingrained denial mechanism that there is a problem after all how do you come to grips that your entire personality is based on a faulty decision making process. It's more reasonable that 1 in 12 people have BPD or a cluster B.


Now as to being cured the answer is no. Symptoms may apepar to go away and there may appear to be change but being cured? Absolutely not. There's also a popular theory that people with BPD get better with age and that isn't true either. Now, it's possible that their antics may mellow so it may appear that they are getting better, but the reality is that they come to realize as they grow older some of their tactics just don't work.

That's not to say there haven't been those with BPD who have become enlightened by their condition, but even when they can cognitively process their disorder it's a constant struggle like an addict to avoid their prior behavioral problems and they're constantly tip toeing on a highwire of sanity.

 

[Colossus]

Just for reference:

DSM-IV-TR diagnostic criteria for borderline personality disorder are (1) a pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and (2) marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by at least 5 of the following:

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment (Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.)

A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

Identity disturbance: Markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

Impulsivity in at least 2 areas that are potentially self-damaging (eg, spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating) (Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.)

Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.

Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (eg, intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

Chronic feelings of emptiness

Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (eg, frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

Prevalence studies are near-impossible to conduct accurately for these disorders. After all, they only can quantify what is diagnosed clinically. There are undoubtedly thousands of cases that go undiagnosed or are MISdiagnosed but non-clinical providers.

But back to the topic, I think it's a stretch to expect anyone with a personality disorder to completely resume or attain "normal" functioning. Personality disorders are, by definition, pervasive in that they affect one's activities of daily living. They markedly interfere with interpersonal relationships, and people with personality disorders--again, by definition--do not recognize the depth of their dysfunction. Mood disorders such as Bipolar generally do no affect people's daily activities and people with mood disorders recognize there is a problem. Mood disorders are often transient (such as depression) and people can fully recover.

Not trying to be captain-know-it-all here or minimize anyone's experiences, just think it's good to be scientific when throwing out clinical labels.

 

[Die Hard]

people with personality disorders--again, by definition--do not recognize the depth of their dysfunction. Mood disorders such as Bipolar generally do no affect people's daily activities and people with mood disorders recognize there is a problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the depth of their dysfunction' but you seem to be implying that people with personality disorders can't recognize their own disorder. The second sentence form the quote particularly seems to implies this, as if you're suggesting that people with mood disorders CAN recognize their problem but people with personality disorders CANNOT.

That would be a gross exaggeration...people with personality disorders are quite able to recognize their disorder. They might not be able to grasp it to its fullest extent but they can come quite a long way.

 

[Colossus]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the depth of their dysfunction' but you seem to be implying that people with personality disorders can't recognize their own disorder. The second sentence form the quote particularly seems to implies this, as if you're suggesting that people with mood disorders CAN recognize their problem but people with personality disorders CANNOT.

That would be a gross exaggeration...people with personality disorders are quite able to recognize their disorder. They might not be able to grasp it to its fullest extent but they can come quite a long way.

That is exactly what I am saying. People with PD may realize there is some dysfunction to their behavior (by the reactions of others), but in general they are ego-syntonic, i.e. they see nothing wrong with their behavior. Former BPD veterans here may agree.

It gets a little more complicated than this in clinical diagnosis, but this is a distinguishing feature of a personality disorder. Mood disorders, on the other hand, are usually ego-dystonic, in that they fully recognize there is something amiss with them (sometimes not until after the acute episode), they just may not know how to resolve it without treatment.

 

[Findog]

Unless the guys posting on this site are mental health professionals, none of us are qualified to diagnose someone with BPD. I don't think it's necessary to find the perfect label to put on some of the girls that we've been with - at a certain point you recognize obvious dysfunction when you see it. What exactly that dysfunction happens to be is best left up to a mental health professional. It's our responsibility to recognize red flags and react accordingly.

As for the guys posting on this site seemingly encountering the 1-2 percent of BPD girls, I would just say that I've had girls treat me like crap before, lead me on, whatever, and once I realized what the score was, I took my leave and didn't bother with them after that. But all I can say is that with my ex-fiancee...the way that relationship unfolded and then the way it ended was such a huge mindf*ck.

There are some girls you encounter that are just typical girls, things don't work out for whatever reason, they are JUST.NOT.THAT.INTO.YOU, they may handle things badly or not, and you shrug it off and move on. And then there are some girls, like my ex, when things end you are devastated because of how it happened. Something very disturbing happened and you go out seeking answers...and you end up at places like sosuave, loveshack or BPD family. I don't know if my ex was BPD or not. I've told my story to many people and some people said it sounded like BPD and some said it didn't. But they all agreed that is was definitely dysfunctional behavior. So as far as I'm concerned, finding the perfect label to describe her is not necessary.

 

[The_411]

Findog,

Abolsutely agree I do think people are quick to rush to label behavior we find unacceptable to automatically be BPDish in nature.

The problem is that we all (humans) exhibit BPD symptoms from time to time the reason we're not diagnosed with BPD is that we don't exhibit 5 or more of the 9 DSM IV criteria concurrently.

I also agree that we're too quick to find a reason why something failed as opposed to looking inward to see what we could have addressed or where we made mistakes as well as addressing our culpability for the failures. As with any relationship BPD, cluster B, or just screwy, we played a part in the relationship and we have to be responsible for failing to deal with inappropriate behavior.

Ultimately whether a girl is BPD or not we have to stop things when the behavior is poor, terrible, abhorrent etc.

I do feel that knowledge about BPD is something that everyone needs to be aware of for the simple reason why we need to be aware of the dangers of drugs, alcohol, etc. to understand how insidious the disorders can be and why sticking around can ultimately drive us crazy and even lead to death.

 

[Findog]

Findog,

Abolsutely agree I do think people are quick to rush to label behavior we find unacceptable to automatically be BPDish in nature.

I just use the catch-all term Cluster B.

I also agree that we're too quick to find a reason why something failed as opposed to looking inward to see what we could have addressed or where we made mistakes as well as addressing our culpability for the failures. As with any relationship BPD, cluster B, or just screwy, we played a part in the relationship and we have to be responsible for failing to deal with inappropriate behavior.

When I look back at my relationship with my ex, was I perfect? Of course not. I didn't always say the right thing. You spend as much time in a committed relationship, sometimes your idiosyncrasies will get on their nerves, etc. That's normal relationship stuff. I am responsible for keeping my side of the street clean. I will say, however, that I did a very good job generally of keeping up my end of the bargain when it came to the relationship.

I do feel that knowledge about BPD is something that everyone needs to be aware of for the simple reason why we need to be aware of the dangers of drugs, alcohol, etc. to understand how insidious the disorders can be and why sticking around can ultimately drive us crazy and even lead to death.

I now understand the term "fleas." It's like part of their sickness rubs off on you. In the aftermath of our breakup, I was definitely broken and my emotional and mental health suffered while I struggled to pick up the pieces. It's hard to explain to somebody that hasn't gone through it. There's a saying I've grown to appreciate: "In the beginning, they mirrored us and everything was wonderful. In the end, we mirrored them and it was awful." I just try to remind myself that every positive thing she made me feel is already inside me.